318 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

FINE HERE wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...
A dwarf could never be a mage, so that has nothing to do with DA2. The Hawkes could have simply adopted an elf or dwarf into their family. The majority of Kirkwall hated Hawke at the start for simply being Fereldon so an elf or a dwarf becoming champion after killing the Qunari would have been possible, but they'd still receive some abuse from certain people, obviously. And an elf or dwarf could have become stronger enough to protect Anders, strenght has nothing to do with being human.

Your father was a mage, remember?
An adopted Hawke would've never become noble in Kirkwall. You're understimating the racism in Andrastian society. Probably the same for the Champion title. Or anyway, they wouldn't have the chance to what a human Hawke did, since Hawke was pulled in the Qunari conflict because of his social status.
And I used the wrong word with "strenght". I meant the power Hawke held as a Champion, since Meredith clearly said that Anders was safe because of Hawke.

The elf or dwarf would be adopted by both Papa Hawke and Mama Hawke(I don't remember their names...). When Papa Hawke dies, Mama Hawke is the one that adopted child is connected to. If Papa Hawke being a mage means no chance at being a noble, why does Mama Hawke get to go back after marrying one? And having one as a child?

And I didn't say everyone would be hip-hip-horray for elf or dwarf champion, but there would still be some people who go 'That thing saved my life! It's a hero!" You'd be surprise how being in a life or death situation can change one's view on things.

Eh, except Mama Hawke doesn't just get to "go back" to being a noble. Your Hawke still has to buy back the manor. And who says you would even be allowed to buy back the manor if you're not human? You don't see any non-human residents of Hightown except for Fenris, who's really just a squatter.

[zyntifox]

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Fair enough. How about being left as a child at the doorstep of the Hawkes? I think that would have been extremly interesting.

You'd just be their servant in the best case scenario. Also without Hawke jumping through hoops the most you (as a dwarf or elf) would have to hope for is being left at the doorstep of Gamlen. Not exactly sure how well that would've worked out. My point is that there are no reasonable workarounds for that type of plot. At least not without spending much time/resourses on it 

Wait. They would make a dwarven child or a elven child their servant? You mean Leandra, the woman that complaints of you having an adult elven servant in the house, even though you are paying her ( not that i ever did mwuahaha) in DA2. However, if Malcolm is anything like his son i could see Malcolm start a sweat-shop in the basement in Lothering.

[Terrorize69]

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

[upsettingshorts]

Farbautisonn wrote...

tl:dr: Whiteknights out in force against the few remaining critics that might actually have something valuable to say.

Because there's no such thing as two sides of a controversy!

Plus how valuable can what they're saying be if it's the same thing they've been saying for over two years?  Diminishing returns and all.

But none of that matters as long as we can paint one side as fanboys and the other side as people reaching for reasons to be mad.  That's much better and more "valuable."

[Rawgrim]

Monica21 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

Massive plothole that if nearly everyone playing saw, then BioWare saw too. From what knowledge I have of game developers, if the player sees ten problems, the dev team sees one hundred.

This was pointed out in Origins too. Nobody reacting to the PC using blood magic all the time. That feedback got ignored.

[mousestalker]

TheJediSaint wrote...
snip

Since when are elves not bland?

A common myth. Elves are not bland if properly prepared. Most go for a simple spit raosting, but elves generally lack the fat for that. Instead try braising your elf in chicken fat. A jalapeno, nut and bread stuffing will add a delightful bite to your braised city elf. For Dalish go with less fat, but season the stuffing liberally to ease its more gamey flavour. Some leves come enhanced with lyrium, a Tevinter innovation, it speeds up the whole cooking process tremendously at the cost of some added toughness.

The main thing is whether domestic or wild, elves need to be cleaned thoroughly. It's a tedious but vital step.

Now you know.

[Blacklash93]

It's so more players can relate and put themselves in the PC. That's actually a pretty big thing for many people.

Though I agree it is a little annoying that every leading hero has to be human. I think it would be interesting if we were put in the shoes of a protagonist that was defined as an elf or another race.

[Aulis Vaara]

And it's looking less and less likely I'll buy this game. Disappointing, to say the least.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

its never adressed if you are male or female either.

So when Bethany addresses FHawke as her sister, its a slip of the tongue right?

The only exception to the rule.

Off the top of my head(I've never even played as FHawke), Sebastian isn't romanceable as a male. 2nd exception to the rule.

Also your definition of rpg is hilariously broad. You actually just defined everything ranging from NBA2k12 to CoD as an RPG, since they only need character creation and stats.

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

This was pointed out in Origins too. Nobody reacting to the PC using blood magic all the time. That feedback got ignored.

Or, you know, maybe they weren't able to do anything about it given some other unknown restriction.  Why do you assume that because something doesn't change, they didn't want to change it?  

Do you also believe they didn't want to put bowstrings in DAO or DA2?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Iakus]

Terrorize69 wrote...

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

I'd hold off on saying DA3 has a "great story" until we actually know what the story is.  Otherwise that's a good point.

Modifié par iakus, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Rawgrim]

Terrorize69 wrote...

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

ME. Great story, no racial choice, background for the PC that has ZERO impact on the story.
Rpgs don`t equal watching a story through a movie. Thats an utter miss.

[Masha Potato]

I think the point of the thread now is thar Rawgrim is the only person in the world who has played any rpgs. Everyone go home

[Iosev]

I personally would only want the ability to choose the protagonist's race when Bioware is ready to commit the resources into heavily incorporating racial differences into the story, dialogue, and voice acting. I'm not really interested in seeing racial origins return if its handled like DA:O (i.e., the majority of each race's distinction is restricted to the short, beginning portion of the game, followed by a few, sporadic references afterwards).

Instead, I would like to see race return if it meant dramatically distinct playthroughs for each origin. For example, not only would I like to see a Dalish protagonist approach conflicts from a different perspective from that of human protagonist, I also would like to see the different protagonists experience different conflicts altogether.

In general, I want races to return when Bioware is ready to implement racial differences beyond a prologue and minor references, including voice acting, much more dialogue references, and dramatic story/plot differences.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

Massive plothole that if nearly everyone playing saw, then BioWare saw too. From what knowledge I have of game developers, if the player sees ten problems, the dev team sees one hundred.

This was pointed out in Origins too. Nobody reacting to the PC using blood magic all the time. That feedback got ignored.

They specifically addressed this issue in a developer Q&A session. Things like being a mage and specializing as a blood mage are to be addressed in game from DA3 on forward.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was addressing my preference for my elven mage over the human noble Hawke; I never felt like the latter was genuinely my character when he was quite a bit pre-written, especially with confusing paraphrasing and auto-lines, while I was given many options to determine who my Surana Warden was. I don't see why so many choices keep getting stripped away when the developers should have improved on Origins, rather than discarding the freedoms that were available for The Warden (and, effectively, the players). 

Also, the royal boons are supposed to be limited to specific Wardens, i.e. only the Dalish Warden can ask for his people to be given their own homeland (the Hinterlands). If your Cousland Warden was able to ask for the Magi Boon, it's evidently a bug.

I agree that there was less choice for Hawke than for any PC in Origins, but that is not a result of race choice. If you were able to play as a dwarf or elf, the story and lack of choice would have played out exactly the same. Regardless, you don't get more choices in how the story plays out because of race. You get more choices because they're given to you as options. Chalk that up to bad writing or shortened development time, but it's not based on race.

I don't have any interest in playing as an Andrastian human. I'd prefer to explore Thedas with a Dalish mage, and for my race and culture to matter. Playing as a human in Thedas holds no appeal for me.

[FINE HERE]

Monica21 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...
A dwarf could never be a mage, so that has nothing to do with DA2. The Hawkes could have simply adopted an elf or dwarf into their family. The majority of Kirkwall hated Hawke at the start for simply being Fereldon so an elf or a dwarf becoming champion after killing the Qunari would have been possible, but they'd still receive some abuse from certain people, obviously. And an elf or dwarf could have become stronger enough to protect Anders, strenght has nothing to do with being human.

Your father was a mage, remember?
An adopted Hawke would've never become noble in Kirkwall. You're understimating the racism in Andrastian society. Probably the same for the Champion title. Or anyway, they wouldn't have the chance to what a human Hawke did, since Hawke was pulled in the Qunari conflict because of his social status.
And I used the wrong word with "strenght". I meant the power Hawke held as a Champion, since Meredith clearly said that Anders was safe because of Hawke.

The elf or dwarf would be adopted by both Papa Hawke and Mama Hawke(I don't remember their names...). When Papa Hawke dies, Mama Hawke is the one that adopted child is connected to. If Papa Hawke being a mage means no chance at being a noble, why does Mama Hawke get to go back after marrying one? And having one as a child?

And I didn't say everyone would be hip-hip-horray for elf or dwarf champion, but there would still be some people who go 'That thing saved my life! It's a hero!" You'd be surprise how being in a life or death situation can change one's view on things.

Eh, except Mama Hawke doesn't just get to "go back" to being a noble. Your Hawke still has to buy back the manor. And who says you would even be allowed to buy back the manor if you're not human? You don't see any non-human residents of Hightown except for Fenris, who's really just a squatter.

I think the Dwarves merchant guild is in Hightown. And I'm pretty sure if you have the gold, people won't care what you look like. Go to the Deep Roads, get some coin, buy back the mansion. Your neighbors may hate it, but they won't be able to do anything about it if Hawke bought the mansion from the Viscount. The reason there aren't all Elves or Dwarves in mansions is because they can't earn the money to buy one.

[Fast Jimmy]

mousestalker wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...
snip

Since when are elves not bland?

A common myth. Elves are not bland if properly prepared. Most go for a simple spit raosting, but elves generally lack the fat for that. Instead try braising your elf in chicken fat. A jalapeno, nut and bread stuffing will add a delightful bite to your braised city elf. For Dalish go with less fat, but season the stuffing liberally to ease its more gamey flavour. Some leves come enhanced with lyrium, a Tevinter innovation, it speeds up the whole cooking process tremendously at the cost of some added toughness.

The main thing is whether domestic or wild, elves need to be cleaned thoroughly. It's a tedious but vital step.

Now you know.

Follow up question: if my elf has manage to get a large amount of lyrium in them, would it best to dry tut out, or leave it in for flavoring?

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

ME. Great story, no racial choice, background for the PC that has ZERO impact on the story.
Rpgs don`t equal watching a story through a movie. Thats an utter miss.

So KoToR is no longer an RPG? 

[Caiden012]

Terrorize69 wrote...

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

Do not compare an MMO to a singleplayer RPG. They are very different. We did not have to choose during Origins why should we have to now.

[Rawgrim]

[/quote]

Off the top of my head(I've never even played as FHawke), Sebastian isn't romanceable as a male. 2nd exception to the rule.

Also your definition of rpg is hilariously broad. You actually just defined everything ranging from NBA2k12 to CoD as an RPG, since they only need character creation and stats.

[/quote]

Now you are just being deliberatly dense. I never said character creation and stats were the ONLY traits of an rpg.

[challenger18]

double post

Modifié par challenger18, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[FINE HERE]

Terrorize69 wrote...

People still have a choice..

Play WoW, plenty of racial choices, no background, crap story.

Play DA3, no racial choice, backgrounds of PC that influence story, great story.

Both RPGs. All you need to decide is what's important to you, vanity or story.

WoW is an MMORPG. It's not the same thing.

Modifié par FINE HERE, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Han Shot First]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Even if it was made canon that a protagonist believed in the Maker, so what?

Some people prefer to have, at least, the same freedom in choices that were available in Origins. Why force the protagonist to be religious Andrastian when you can give them the freedom to not believe in the fictional religion? Why force the protagonist to only be human when you could make elven, dwarven, or kossith protagonists available?

The only thing that stipulated that Hawke should be human was that he bought the family mansion. An elven or dwarven protagonist could have fled Ferelden, allied with the smugglers or mercenaries, become wealthy from the Deep Roads, relocated, become important to the Viscount via the Arishok's demand for the protagonist, and ultimately defeated the Arishok in a duel. None of that demands a human protagonist. And I'm skeptical about the idea that Inquisition truly demands a human protagonist as well.

Bioware protagonists are never really a blank slate, even when they aren't voice acted. The Warden for example had some pre-defined characteristics depending on which origin was chosen.

If Bioware rolls out a protagonist that is some kind of Inquisitor for the Chantry, I'm totally fine with that character being a devout Andrastian. In fact it makes a lot more sense for that sort of character than being an atheist. Likewise if the protagonist had been a Witch of the Wilds instead, I'd expect the character to follow some pre-Andrastian traditions much like Morrigan.

Also atheism in general doesn't make a lot of sense for the Dragon Age universe. Consider that it is a world in which spirts, demons and the Fade are known to exist even by non-mages. People in that world have direct experience with the supernatural, and it isn't just something that exists in myths or in religious dogma. As such people who populate that world having some sort of religious faith in the supernatural makes a lot more sense than people saying, "The supernatural is a bunch of malarkey."

Atheism makes sense in Thedas, and saying otherwise is disingenuous. Magic, spirits, and dragons don't require anyone to believe that the world was created by the Maker or a higher power, as Morrigan argues to Leliana. I certainly saw no reason for my Surana Warden to believe in the Maker or a higher power; as he tells Justice, it's a "foolish superstition."

Lack of belief in the Maker and atheism are not necessarily one and the same.

Morrigan for example, believes that the Andrastian religion is 'foolish superstition,' but she also seems to believe that the archdemons, in their uncorrupted state, are gods. She seems to follow a remnant of pre-Andrastian tradition. Likewise Sten quite often mocks Andrastian tradition, but is himself a devout follower of the Qun.

Atheism makes sense in the modern world where there is absolutely no evidence of the supernatural. It doesn't make much sense in Thedas, where people literally live alongside the supernatural.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:12 .