318 réponses à ce sujet

[JWvonGoethe]

Rawgrim wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...
Take a look at this thread social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/371/index/14199484&lf=8

What David Gaider said was that you could play as an atheist character in Origins. He also said that this (non-)belief system was indicated by a few dialogue options in game but was not fully supported. What he meant by it not being fully "supported" was that being an atheist did not affect the game plotwise (except on a few occasions, such as defiling Andraste's Ashes, presumably.)

He did not comment on DA3 (or even DA2.) I appreciate that many people would like to play as a character who brings down the chantry - I agree it would be great to choose to play as a character who wants to do that. However, he did not cite ideological grounds for excluding this option. With regards to playing as a militant secularist, he simply argued that it was impractical, stating only that "in order to make such a view supported we would need to provide a full path for such a stance."

PS when I started typing this reply, the topic was on page 2

Actually he has commented on DA3. He said we would be playing an andrastian human.

Do you have a source? Is it possible he was referring to only one of the multiple character backgrounds being an Andrastian? Anyway, I have to head off just now, I'll make sure to read your reply later on.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .

[zyntifox]

Vandicus wrote...

ME is not an rpg because there is no racial chocie and the background has zero impact. KoToR likewise has no racial choice and the background has zero impact. At least be consistent in your application of your invented standards.

That is not why ME is not a RPG. ME is not a RPG because the character(s) you are "assuming direct control" over is acting and talking without input and you don't know what is going to come out of the character's mouth when choosing a dialogue option. This is coming from a Mass effect fan by the way so i am not trying to bad-mouth that franchise.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

It's rather interesting to see some people treating the situation as dire-- as if a decision must be made about what the game is right now[/i].

You don't have to, after all. We haven't shown anything about the game at all, yet. It's easy for us to talk about things the game won't have, the ones which we're absolutely certain about, but talking about things the game does have-- like the new backgrounds-- is difficult, and thus we'll avoid doing so until we can explain them in full. Without that context, for instance, I see the backgrounds being brought up, and since the nearest examples anyone can think of are the Mass Effect backgrounds, they're discarded as irrelevant.

They're not, but until we can talk about them more, or show the many other things we do[/i] have, this is what you get. While that may make it difficult to picture the kind of game DA3 will be just yet, that's OK. If something like a lack of player races is a deal-breaker for you, if it was the thing you absolutely enjoyed most about DAO and increased customization over DA2 which doesn't include that just doesn't cut it for you, then consider yourself duly warned.

If you'd prefer to wait until you see more, and until then remain skeptical, that's entirely fair. The default opinion of any self-respecting Internet-dweller is skepticism, after all-- if the game is exactly as bad as you predicted, you get to be a prophet. If it's not, then you get to be pleasantly surprised. These are better options for most than being disappointed. If, however, you wish to declare that all is lost and move on, that's also fair. Hopefully once we start showing the game you'll see things you like, and they'll be explained so you can actually imagine the work that went into them-- which is plenty. We've had to make many decisions between what we can and can't do, all with an eye to improving the overall experience of DA3.

Such a reveal is not going to happen anytime soon, however. So if you're waiting to be convinced, you're likely going to have to wait quite some time yet. There are still many, many months to go before you need to make a decision on anything. That's not going to stop anyone, of course, but if you're bewildered why BioWare isn't rushing in to prove you wrong, that would be why.

Dire? I think it has more to do with individual preference. Some people simply have no interest in an Andrastian human protagonist, it's as simple as that. If Inquisition limits people to a choice they have no interest in, they aren't going to be content.

[FINE HERE]

Honestly, I don't care what the definition of an RPG is to people. What I'm angry about it more and more player choices are disappearing.

The series started out letting you pick one of three races, and with backgrounds. It wasn't a flawless game, but it was an amazing game that many people loved.

In DA2, we were humans with only one background and a voice that suited the default Hawke, but not every other possible character. Choices of gender and class barely changed the story as no one really noticed whether you were a male or a female aside from a few WORD changes. And no one noticed you swinging magic around all willy-nilly.

In DA3, we're gonna have a human PC and a paragraph discribing a background we'll never get to play out or see. Swell.

I wanted to hear more about the Dalish culture, more about city elves' lives, more and Dwarves, life in the Deep Roads, things like that. Another templar/mage war? Great... Yay...

[Atakuma]

Here are a few of the biggest reasons for the lack of race choice.

1.They would have to redo many cutscenes multiple times to account for the racial variants.
2.They would have to modify each piece of armor six or eight times in order to account for both gender and racial variants
3.They would ideally need to create a good deal of race specific content.

All in all that's very large amount of work to put into something the vast majority of people wont even experience.

[upsettingshorts]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

Now these quotes are not word for word, But i will say this there is a growing disconnect between some fans and Bioware for a multitude of different reasons, don't ignore the minority because even they matter.

Maybe it's more along the lines of "we can't really placate said minority with half measures, but we can fully support the majority with features designed to improve their experience." 

People who really want racial choice see it get cut and think, "Oh we lost that feature.  BioWare hates its fans!"  But that's not what it's about.

Of course I don't expect the former to start thinking like the latter or vice versa anytime soon. 

[Nerevar-as]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

so basically while reading this thread this is the impression i get.
1. we never played as anything other then human so we don't get the big deal, but if you wanted to play as another race we feel sorry for you.

2. you can't play as an elf, dwarf, or kossith because the world of dragon age is inherently racist.

3. paying for more voice actors for extra races wouldn't be cost productive see how the majority only play as human anyway.

4. In DA3 you'll be playing a " inquisitior " and that's a human organization so no minorities

5. we couldn't find a way to make race selection work in the context of this story, it would be too much work to change everything.

Now these quotes are not word for word, But i will say this there is a growing disconnect between some fans and Bioware for a multitude of different reasons, don't ignore the minority because even they matter.

I don´t get this one. So yeah, we are a low %, but it´s still tens of thousands of us. I´d say we are worth the extra VO cost.

[thebigbad1013]

FINE HERE wrote...

Honestly, I don't care what the definition of an RPG is to people. What I'm angry about it more and more player choices are disappearing.

The series started out letting you pick one of three races, and with backgrounds. It wasn't a flawless game, but it was an amazing game that many people loved.

In DA2, we were humans with only one background and a voice that suited the default Hawke, but not every other possible character. Choices of gender and class barely changed the story as no one really noticed whether you were a male or a female aside from a few WORD changes. And no one noticed you swinging magic around all willy-nilly.

In DA3, we're gonna have a human PC and a paragraph discribing a background we'll never get to play out or see. Swell.

I wanted to hear more about the Dalish culture, more about city elves' lives, more and Dwarves, life in the Deep Roads, things like that. Another templar/mage war? Great... Yay...

You're making a lot of assumptions that you really still don't have any way of knowing if they are actually true or not. Although if you truly don't want a game that is about the mage/templar issue then this game probably isn't for you.

[ianvillan]

David Gaider wrote...

It's rather interesting to see some people treating the situation as dire-- as if a decision must be made about what the game is right now.

You don't have to, after all. We haven't shown anything about the game at all, yet. It's easy for us to talk about things the game won't have, the ones which we're absolutely certain about, but talking about things the game does have-- like the new backgrounds-- is difficult, and thus we'll avoid doing so until we can explain them in full. Without that context, for instance, I see the backgrounds being brought up, and since the nearest examples anyone can think of are the Mass Effect backgrounds, they're discarded as irrelevant.

They're not, but until we can talk about them more, or show the many other things we do have, this is what you get. While that may make it difficult to picture the kind of game DA3 will be just yet, that's OK. If something like a lack of player races is a deal-breaker for you, if it was the thing you absolutely enjoyed most about DAO and increased customization over DA2 which doesn't include that just doesn't cut it for you, then consider yourself duly warned.

If you'd prefer to wait until you see more, and until then remain skeptical, that's entirely fair. The default opinion of any self-respecting Internet-dweller is skepticism, after all-- if the game is exactly as bad as you predicted, you get to be a prophet. If it's not, then you get to be pleasantly surprised. These are better options for most than being disappointed. If, however, you wish to declare that all is lost and move on, that's also fair. Hopefully once we start showing the game you'll see things you like, and they'll be explained so you can actually imagine the work that went into them-- which is plenty. We've had to make many decisions between what we can and can't do, all with an eye to improving the overall experience of DA3.

Such a reveal is not going to happen anytime soon, however. So if you're waiting to be convinced, you're likely going to have to wait quite some time yet. There are still many, many months to go before you need to make a decision on anything. That's not going to stop anyone, of course, but if you're bewildered why BioWare isn't rushing in to prove you wrong, that would be why.

David I understand the position you and the rest of Bioware are in, but it seems to some of us that you have no problem releasing information about DA2 features yet we hear nothing about any Origin features.

You have told us about the companion armour system you might be going with, if you can mention that system with a disclaimer that it might not be in game why cant you mention if you even plan on having an isometic view in game with the same disclaimer on it.

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dire? I think it has more to do with individual preference. Some people simply have no interest in an Andrastian human protagonist, it's as simple as that. If Inquisition limits people to a choice they have no interest in, they aren't going to be content.

I still want to see a link where DG confirms you will absolutely be forced to identify as a devout Andrastian and not just someone who says "Maker" incidentally.

Furthermore, how do you even know what it would be like?  What if you have options that actively support roleplaying a loss of faith and growing skepticism?

[Rawgrim]

*EDIT My Post begins here, edited for clarity due to quoting issues

You're talking down to people when you ignore that not all tabletop RPGs, which the concept of a CRPG is based off of, utilize a D&Desque stats based system.

What makes the original ME an rpg and the latter ones not? The original ME did not have stats any more than the latter ones did. You don't have clear standards and don't apply them consistently.


Also, you have yet to address my statement on why DA:O is not an rpg because it doesn't have mounts, which is only 1 of 10,000 possible reasons I might have for why its not an rpg.

[/quote]

How am I talking down to someone? I am talking about elements that makes a game an rpg, or not.

And NO not all tabletop rpgs uses a d&d`ish system. Some are way different than the others. Its like comparing soccer to swimming.

The first ME has skillpoints, alot of non-combat skills as well, you could customize your companions. Give them better armours. You get the drill. Stuff that got removed later.

As for your DA:O argument. Its just you deliberatly trying to be dense, so I won`t reply to it.

[JWvonGoethe]

Just read DG's post. Hopefully he'll clear everything up. Am I right in thinking from DG's post that a mandatory Andrastian protagonist has not been explicitly confirmed? Personally I'm happy either way.

Anyway this thread is moving far too fast for me to keep up. I'm off for now.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Kreid]

I find it funny that people believe BioWare are "stealing player choice" because they want. This is the reality of high budget cinematic games, do you think they'd not rather add races and other fearures if they could?

There's of course other matters like story coherence (Inquisition being human institution and being, thus, being human makes sense) but an in all, I think people should start realizing that developers have to prioritize features.

Modifié par Creid-X, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Rawgrim]

Cstaf wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ME is not an rpg because there is no racial chocie and the background has zero impact. KoToR likewise has no racial choice and the background has zero impact. At least be consistent in your application of your invented standards.

That is not why ME is not a RPG. ME is not a RPG because the character(s) you are "assuming direct control" over is acting and talking without input and you don't know what is going to come out of the character's mouth when choosing a dialogue option. This is coming from a Mass effect fan by the way so i am not trying to bad-mouth that franchise.

Exactly! ME started off and an RPG\\Shooter hybrid. Ended up being a shooter\\interactive movie. Its one of my favorite gaming series, but its not an rpg.

[spirosz]

FINE HERE wrote...

Honestly, I don't care what the definition of an RPG is to people. What I'm angry about it more and more player choices are disappearing.

The series started out letting you pick one of three races, and with backgrounds. It wasn't a flawless game, but it was an amazing game that many people loved.

In DA2, we were humans with only one background and a voice that suited the default Hawke, but not every other possible character. Choices of gender and class barely changed the story as no one really noticed whether you were a male or a female aside from a few WORD changes. And no one noticed you swinging magic around all willy-nilly.

In DA3, we're gonna have a human PC and a paragraph discribing a background we'll never get to play out or see. Swell.

I wanted to hear more about the Dalish culture, more about city elves' lives, more and Dwarves, life in the Deep Roads, things like that. Another templar/mage war? Great... Yay...

Who says those choices similar to DA are relevant and will have a meaningful impact for DA III?  We don't know the story, we don't know who the companions will be, we don't know the conflict, etc.  Sometimes taking away certain "choices" will help what Bioware wants to achieve with this certain game or maybe it won't, we have yet to see.  

[Monica21]

FINE HERE wrote...
In DA3, we're gonna have a human PC and a paragraph discribing a background we'll never get to play out or see. Swell.

And you assume this, why?

I wanted to hear more about the Dalish culture, more about city elves' lives, more and Dwarves, life in the Deep Roads, things like that. Another templar/mage war? Great... Yay...

Why do you think you won't hear about Dalish culture? Did playing as a human prevent you from learning more about the Dalish? Did it prevent you from seeing the likely connection between Arlathan and the Primeval Thaig? There may not have been as much as you would have liked, but even if you played a dwarven Hawke you probably wouldn't know anything more than you learned in Origins either, simply because that's not the story they're telling. Right now, the story is the mage/templar conflict. If that isn't what you care about, then I guess your purchasing decision is pretty easy.

[FINE HERE]

bigbad1013 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

Honestly, I don't care what the definition of an RPG is to people. What I'm angry about it more and more player choices are disappearing.

The series started out letting you pick one of three races, and with backgrounds. It wasn't a flawless game, but it was an amazing game that many people loved.

In DA2, we were humans with only one background and a voice that suited the default Hawke, but not every other possible character. Choices of gender and class barely changed the story as no one really noticed whether you were a male or a female aside from a few WORD changes. And no one noticed you swinging magic around all willy-nilly.

In DA3, we're gonna have a human PC and a paragraph discribing a background we'll never get to play out or see. Swell.

I wanted to hear more about the Dalish culture, more about city elves' lives, more and Dwarves, life in the Deep Roads, things like that. Another templar/mage war? Great... Yay...

You're making a lot of assumptions that you really still don't have any way of knowing if they are actually true or not. Although if you truly don't want a game that is about the mage/templar issue then this game probably isn't for you.

We know we are going to be Human only. That must has been confirmed. That's a huge choice IMO, and it's a huge disappointment to me. I could live through another templar/mage war if it's not the reason I can't play as an elf or dwarf, or Kossith.

As for the backgrounds, they said this: "backgrounds will be in Dragon Age 3 even though you will be human, it's not playable but it does significant impact on the story."  I like the background thing, but I would rather we could play through it and experience it a little.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well this is going well.


That we didn't implement a feature that you wanted, doesn't mean that we aren't listening. If you think that the lack of race selection is why DA2 struggled, I think you're being myopic in your perspective (especially since BioWare has had very successful RPGs where you couldn't choose a different species, KOTOR in particular).

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[mousestalker]

Bioware has listened and continues to listen. They just aren't saying what you want them to say. The issue at hand is other than how it is being presented.