318 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

franciscoamell wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

 I think the Origins were a great idea, and I think it's unfortunate that they were cast aside for Inquisition again.

I think they were a good idea for a game that was introducing a new IP.  It baffles me that because it existed once in a single game it's suddenly a requirement for BioWare RPGs.  Furthermore it's odd to me that people seem to link them to racial choice as if they cannot be separated and never were, when they can and always have been.

Um, Origins was not the only Bioware game where you could choose your race.

Um, I was talking about origins.  

You could choose race in other BioWare games - though certainly not all of them - but they each started the same way in the same place regardless of that choice.

[legbamel]

AppealToReason wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AppealToRease wrote...
If that's really a deal breaker than I feel bad for you.

I don't agree that it was merely cosmetic. My background as the elven mage protagonist meant I could agree with the Libertarians, I could voice that I didn't believe in the Maker, I could condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because they didn't convert to the Chantry, I could express how I viewed the Chantry controlled Circle, I could deal with occasional racism and bigotry, I could tell Leliana that I didn't believe Andraste was a divine person, and I could tell Justice that belief in the Maker was a "foolish superstition."

I remember saying all that as a human noble too.

Yup.  It wasn't restricted to elves or mages.  Those were options for anyone.  While I don't remember much opportunity to tell people I didn't believe in the Maker in DA2 I also don't recall being forced to proclaim the depth and breadth of my devotion to Andraste, either.  I roleplayed an atheist just fine without having to articulate it in-game.

[Meltemph]

One of the biggest annoyences, when it comes to choosing a race in fantasy games, where to me the biggest draws of the different races is their culture, is when the race differences make near 0 difference in the consequences of a story, when in the lore of a setting race does infact make a difference.

So if Bioware added different races, but only did it because of fan desire, I doubt it would meet my standards or be done well. Nothing good comes from letting fans, who normally have horrible opinions on game design, dictate direction. Game companies already cant make the game they want(completely), with miltestones and other BS like that.

Developers make the best games when they are making the game they wanted, and not a game to placate a fanbase, publisher, marketing, producer. We see crappy movies all the time that do this, pretty sure I dont want the game industry do it to(even though a lot of them already are).

There is always a "cost" to a feature, so hopefully they use the freedom they do have, to make the game in their image they want, instead of adding idea's from incredibly short sighted(and in some cases terrible) producers, publishers, or fans.

I would prefer having everything they do have purpose or add purpose to the overall of the game. So if adding races doesnt actually add to the choices in the game or add depth to the setting/story, why the hell would I want to play another race?

Dwarves are my favorite race in the series, I woukld prefer to play dwarves only and have DA focus on Dwarf lore... Guess what, that isnt gana happen and I sure as crap dont want them giving me the option of being a dwarf if there is no relevence to picking a dwarf(as in beeing treated the exact same as a human).

To reiderate: "Bioware not listening."

Good, cause most "idea's" on these forums are horrible.

[Han Shot First]

A huge demand by DA fans was that they make a game again where they can play different races and have different origins.

By some fans, but certainly not all.

It isn't that Bioware isn't listening to fans, it is just that they didn't listen to the subsection of the fandom that wants multiple origins.

Personally I'm glad the protagonist is going to be human as that guarantees that he or she will be voice acted. I prefer fully voiced protagonists to silent heroes, and multiple origins guarantees a silent protagonist.

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

They said that being Human was integral for DA2, but that story has been critiziced by many as lesser than Origins story and that Hawke was not one of the main players in the story itself.

Another race could of been put into DA2 story and it would still of been the same.

Being human in Dragon Age 2 was necessary because the Hawke family was relevant to the narrative.  If BioWare was going to do racial choice and make the family important, they'd have had to make three families with three different stories as there's no way elf!Hawke or dwarf!Hawke would have said while fleeing the Blight, "Hey we have rich relatives in Kirkwall let's go there!"

If your response to that is "well some people didn't like the story" then too bad, that's not the point.  It isn't a subjective quality argument, it's an objective content argument.  

DA3 doesn't necessarily need to have a human for the exact same reason, but any time you fix any aspect of the protagonist to be something not changeable, it allows the writers and designers to build around a larger base.  

Hawke being human was nessecary, yes. To TELL a story, mind you. Not to let players playthrough a story of their own, with a character they create, or make choices that impacts the story. thats the very core of roleplaying games. the player is in the drivers seat. In DA2 the car was parked infront of a Drive-In cinema, and the player got to watch a movie instead.

[LobselVith8]

Monica21 wrote...

I could also request mage freedom from the Chantry, but that doesn't mean it happened.

You can't ask for the Magi Boon as a Human Noble.

[Caiden012]

AppealToReason wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

bigbad1013 wrote...

Also maybe people shouldn't be making assumptions about the backgrounds just yet. The truth is that the origin stories in Origins, while certainly fun, really didn't make much of a difference in the end in terms of how the rest of the game played out. If they do the backgrounds in a way so that they are actually significant and relevant to the story then I think it could be great.

But isn't that what games are about? Fun? Why should we sacrifice the fun of making our own character so that Bioware can tell a story. I love the story but I love have a character I can connect to more.

You're assuming the two are mutually exclusive. 

In this situation it seems they are. Bio seems want to make us human so that they can tell their story.

[upsettingshorts]

Can we take the atheist!Protagonist conversation to another thread? That is a different conversation that would exist with or without racial choice so it's not on-topic.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Appeal to Reason wrote...

I remember saying all that as a human noble too.

Your Human Noble agreed with the Libertarians in the Magi Origin, expressed to Duncan that you still faced racism in the Circle Tower, condemned the Chantry for marching on the Dales, and dealt with racism for being an elven protagonist?

And again, what did any of that matter once your elven mage got to Ostagar?

[AppealToReason]

legbamel wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AppealToRease wrote...
If that's really a deal breaker than I feel bad for you.

I don't agree that it was merely cosmetic. My background as the elven mage protagonist meant I could agree with the Libertarians, I could voice that I didn't believe in the Maker, I could condemn the Chantry for marching on the Dales because they didn't convert to the Chantry, I could express how I viewed the Chantry controlled Circle, I could deal with occasional racism and bigotry, I could tell Leliana that I didn't believe Andraste was a divine person, and I could tell Justice that belief in the Maker was a "foolish superstition."

I remember saying all that as a human noble too.

Yup.  It wasn't restricted to elves or mages.  Those were options for anyone.  While I don't remember much opportunity to tell people I didn't believe in the Maker in DA2 I also don't recall being forced to proclaim the depth and breadth of my devotion to Andraste, either.  I roleplayed an atheist just fine without having to articulate it in-game.

The only time I remember Hawke saying anything that would lead you to assume his beliefs was when his mother died. Even then, how many people that claim to have no faith will use it like a crutch to make tragedies seem a little less worse. 

Even in battle when he'd say someting that invovled "maker" how many athiests and the like still say "oh my god!"

I think people are just being angry to be angry.

Modifié par AppealToReason, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Can we take the atheist!Protagonist conversation to another thread? That is a different conversation that would exist with or without racial choice so it's not on-topic.

Well its been confirmed that you are alos forced to play as an andrastian this time, so its a valid part of the convo.

[AppealToReason]

Caiden012 wrote...

AppealToReason wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

bigbad1013 wrote...

Also maybe people shouldn't be making assumptions about the backgrounds just yet. The truth is that the origin stories in Origins, while certainly fun, really didn't make much of a difference in the end in terms of how the rest of the game played out. If they do the backgrounds in a way so that they are actually significant and relevant to the story then I think it could be great.

But isn't that what games are about? Fun? Why should we sacrifice the fun of making our own character so that Bioware can tell a story. I love the story but I love have a character I can connect to more.

You're assuming the two are mutually exclusive. 

In this situation it seems they are. Bio seems want to make us human so that they can tell their story.

Yeah, the story of Thedas. A world they created.

[thebigbad1013]

 

Hawke being human was nessecary, yes. To TELL a story, mind you. Not to let players playthrough a story of their own, with a character they create, or make choices that impacts the story. thats the very core of roleplaying games. the player is in the drivers seat. In DA2 the car was parked infront of a Drive-In cinema, and the player got to watch a movie instead.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Yes, you could choose your race in Origins, but it did not change the story. You still had to stop the blight, kill the archdemon.

Modifié par bigbad1013, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

They said that being Human was integral for DA2, but that story has been critiziced by many as lesser than Origins story and that Hawke was not one of the main players in the story itself.

Another race could of been put into DA2 story and it would still of been the same.

Being human in Dragon Age 2 was necessary because the Hawke family was relevant to the narrative.  If BioWare was going to do racial choice and make the family important, they'd have had to make three families with three different stories as there's no way elf!Hawke or dwarf!Hawke would have said while fleeing the Blight, "Hey we have rich relatives in Kirkwall let's go there!"

If your response to that is "well some people didn't like the story" then too bad, that's not the point.  It isn't a subjective quality argument, it's an objective content argument.  

DA3 doesn't necessarily need to have a human for the exact same reason, but any time you fix any aspect of the protagonist to be something not changeable, it allows the writers and designers to build around a larger base.  

Hawke being human was nessecary, yes. To TELL a story, mind you. Not to let players playthrough a story of their own, with a character they create, or make choices that impacts the story. thats the very core of roleplaying games. the player is in the drivers seat. In DA2 the car was parked infront of a Drive-In cinema, and the player got to watch a movie instead.

While I disagree wildly with your summary of Dragon Age 2 and your idea of what BioWare games should be, that won't matter.  What should matter to you is that counting the Mass Effect games, the last four games made by BioWare have followed this same pattern.  Maybe they just aren't making games for you anymore and haven't been for some time now?  If you don't expect a story being told out of a BioWare game, you haven't been paying attention.  If you don't want a story being told in a BioWare game, you're asking for the wrong things.  If you can't enjoy a story being told in an RPG, you're on the wrong forums.

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Can we take the atheist!Protagonist conversation to another thread? That is a different conversation that would exist with or without racial choice so it's not on-topic.

Well its been confirmed that you are alos forced to play as an andrastian this time, so its a valid part of the convo.

No, you are misconstruing the implications of David Gaider's statement in that thread.  Furthermore, this is not a "choices in character limited" discussion, it's a "human vs. racial options" discussion.  

The atheist!Protagonist conversation is literally an entirely different can of worms and as such belongs in its own thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:17 .

[AppealToReason]

Han Shot First wrote...

A huge demand by DA fans was that they make a game again where they can play different races and have different origins.

By some fans, but certainly not all.

It isn't that Bioware isn't listening to fans, it is just that they didn't listen to the subsection of the fandom that wants multiple origins.

Personally I'm glad the protagonist is going to be human as that guarantees that he or she will be voice acted. I prefer fully voiced protagonists to silent heroes, and multiple origins guarantees a silent protagonist.

I'd even go as far to say that a lot of people were like "yeah that'd be cool I guess" but really don't care all that much if the option wasn't there.

[Jerrybnsn]

The Hierophant wrote...

D@mnit Jerry you're distracting others from my thread!(shameless promotion)

I think the name of your thread is the problem..."Question for the devs regarding DA3's CC".   It sounds like you're asking for input on administering a medical treatment to a patient.

[Caiden012]

Meltemph wrote...

One of the biggest annoyences, when it comes to choosing a race in fantasy games, where to me the biggest draws of the different races is their culture, is when the race differences make near 0 difference in the consequences of a story, when in the lore of a setting race does infact make a difference.

So if Bioware added different races, but only did it because of fan desire, I doubt it would meet my standards or be done well. Nothing good comes from letting fans, who normally have horrible opinions on game design, dictate direction. Game companies already cant make the game they want(completely), with miltestones and other BS like that.

Developers make the best games when they are making the game they wanted, and not a game to placate a fanbase, publisher, marketing, producer. We see crappy movies all the time that do this, pretty sure I dont want the game industry do it to(even though a lot of them already are).

There is always a "cost" to a feature, so hopefully they use the freedom they do have, to make the game in their image they want, instead of adding idea's from incredibly short sighted(and in some cases terrible) producers, publishers, or fans.

I would prefer having everything they do have purpose or add purpose to the overall of the game. So if adding races doesnt actually add to the choices in the game or add depth to the setting/story, why the hell would I want to play another race?

Dwarves are my favorite race in the series, I woukld prefer to play dwarves only and have DA focus on Dwarf lore... Guess what, that isnt gana happen and I sure as crap dont want them giving me the option of being a dwarf if there is no relevence to picking a dwarf(as in beeing treated the exact same as a human).

To reiderate: "Bioware not listening."

Good, cause most "idea's" on these forums are horrible.

I don't understand how wanting to get back a feature that we had in Origins (the better game of the two) is a horrible idea.

[Rawgrim]

[/quote]

Yeah, the story of Thedas. A world they created.

[/quote]

Then why tell the players their choices will influence the story they are telling?

[whykikyouwhy]

Caiden012 wrote...


In this situation it seems they are. Bio seems want to make us human so that they can tell their story.

If I'm sitting at a table with my DM, some graph paper and a 20-sided die, ultimately, the DM is controlling and telling the story. I still have the capability to role-play in that environment. Even if that same DM said that I could only play a human, or allowed me only a handful of classes to choose from, I would still be able to role-play...in the DM's world. The DM shapes the world, guides the characters along certain paths, sets up obstacles and choices to get to an end result in many cases. It's the same with a video game version of an RPG - sometimes there are constraints, but the ability to role-play is still there.

It may not match exactly how you wish to role-play, but the option to do so is not removed.

[Monica21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I could also request mage freedom from the Chantry, but that doesn't mean it happened.

You can't ask for the Magi Boon as a Human Noble.

Is it bugged? I've never finished a mage playthrough and I've seen that option.

[LobselVith8]

AppealToReason wrote...

The only time I remember Hawke saying anything that would lead you to assume his beliefs was when his mother died.

And when Hawke told Creators worshipping Feynriel that he hoped the Maker would guide him. People are frustrated with the lack of choices. Simply because you don't share their frustration doesn't make their opinion inconsequential.

[Han Shot First]

Even if it was made canon that a protagonist believed in the Maker, so what?

In an RPG why must be a character have the same world view as the player? Isn't part of the fun playing a character who is different than you?

[AppealToReason]

Caiden012 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

One of the biggest annoyences, when it comes to choosing a race in fantasy games, where to me the biggest draws of the different races is their culture, is when the race differences make near 0 difference in the consequences of a story, when in the lore of a setting race does infact make a difference.

So if Bioware added different races, but only did it because of fan desire, I doubt it would meet my standards or be done well. Nothing good comes from letting fans, who normally have horrible opinions on game design, dictate direction. Game companies already cant make the game they want(completely), with miltestones and other BS like that.

Developers make the best games when they are making the game they wanted, and not a game to placate a fanbase, publisher, marketing, producer. We see crappy movies all the time that do this, pretty sure I dont want the game industry do it to(even though a lot of them already are).

There is always a "cost" to a feature, so hopefully they use the freedom they do have, to make the game in their image they want, instead of adding idea's from incredibly short sighted(and in some cases terrible) producers, publishers, or fans.

I would prefer having everything they do have purpose or add purpose to the overall of the game. So if adding races doesnt actually add to the choices in the game or add depth to the setting/story, why the hell would I want to play another race?

Dwarves are my favorite race in the series, I woukld prefer to play dwarves only and have DA focus on Dwarf lore... Guess what, that isnt gana happen and I sure as crap dont want them giving me the option of being a dwarf if there is no relevence to picking a dwarf(as in beeing treated the exact same as a human).

To reiderate: "Bioware not listening."

Good, cause most "idea's" on these forums are horrible.

I don't understand how wanting to get back a feature that we had in Origins (the better game of the two) is a horrible idea.

Because its not what made the game great. An engrossing story and vast environments were.

[Jerrybnsn]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

*groan*

I suspect we can look forward to these kind of threads popping up everywhere over the next year?

I am sure we'll also get them far past the games' release as well.

I suppose that they weighed the issue and had decided it was better to deal with these threads than the "Why must I have options to play other races!" thread.