318 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Han Shot First wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Even if it was made canon that a protagonist believed in the Maker, so what?

Some people prefer to have, at least, the same freedom in choices that were available in Origins. Why force the protagonist to be religious Andrastian when you can give them the freedom to not believe in the fictional religion? Why force the protagonist to only be human when you could make elven, dwarven, or kossith protagonists available?

The only thing that stipulated that Hawke should be human was that he bought the family mansion. An elven or dwarven protagonist could have fled Ferelden, allied with the smugglers or mercenaries, become wealthy from the Deep Roads, relocated, become important to the Viscount via the Arishok's demand for the protagonist, and ultimately defeated the Arishok in a duel. None of that demands a human protagonist. And I'm skeptical about the idea that Inquisition truly demands a human protagonist as well.

Bioware protagonists are never really a blank slate, even when they aren't voice acted. The Warden for example had some pre-defined characteristics depending on which origin was chosen.

If Bioware rolls out a protagonist that is some kind of Inquisitor for the Chantry, I'm totally fine with that character being a devout Andrastian. In fact it makes a lot more sense for that sort of character than being an atheist. Likewise if the protagonist had been a Witch of the Wilds instead, I'd expect the character to follow some pre-Andrastian traditions much like Morrigan.

Also atheism in general doesn't make a lot of sense for the Dragon Age universe. Consider that it is a world in which spirts, demons and the Fade are known to exist even by non-mages. People in that world have direct experience with the supernatural, and it isn't just something that exists in myths or in religious dogma. As such people who populate that world having some sort of religious faith in the supernatural makes a lot more sense than people saying, "The supernatural is a bunch of malarkey."

Atheism makes sense in Thedas, and saying otherwise is disingenuous. Magic, spirits, and dragons don't require anyone to believe that the world was created by the Maker or a higher power, as Morrigan argues to Leliana. I certainly saw no reason for my Surana Warden to believe in the Maker or a higher power; as he tells Justice, it's a "foolish superstition."

[The Elder King]

FINE HERE wrote...




A dwarf could never be a mage, so that has nothing to do with DA2. The Hawkes could have simply adopted an elf or dwarf into their family. The majority of Kirkwall hated Hawke at the start for simply being Fereldon so an elf or a dwarf becoming champion after killing the Qunari would have been possible, but they'd still receive some abuse from certain people, obviously. And an elf or dwarf could have become stronger enough to protect Anders, strenght has nothing to do with being human.

Your father was a mage, remember?
An adopted Hawke would've never become noble in Kirkwall. You're understimating the racism in Andrastian society. Probably the same for the Champion title. Or anyway, they wouldn't have the chance to what a human Hawke did, since Hawke was pulled in the Qunari conflict because of his social status.
And I used the wrong word with "strenght". I meant the power Hawke held as a Champion, since Meredith clearly said that Anders was safe because of Hawke.

[FINE HERE]

J. Reezy wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

as long as you please the majority, the minority can roll up and die at least that is what i think bioware thinks imo.

Too bad the majority also includes people who have never played an rpg before, and also the CoD crowd....Their longtime fans are now the minority.

I doubt that.

Well... they are a part of EA now, and...

EA...Call of Duty...I don't get it.

EA has Battlefield series and Medal of Honor series in their Origins store, and those are both FPS, like CoD and competing with CoD, so they may be trying to attract the CoD audience through the DA series to get them to look at their other games, such as Battlefield.

[Masha Potato]

Cstaf wrote...

Fair enough. How about being left as a child at the doorstep of the Hawkes? I think that would have been extremly interesting.

You'd just be their servant in the best case scenario. Also without Hawke jumping through hoops the most you (as a dwarf or elf) would have to hope for is being left at the doorstep of Gamlen. Not exactly sure how well that would've worked out. My point is that there are no reasonable workarounds for that type of plot. At least not without spending much time/resourses on it 

[Rawgrim]

challenger18 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

as long as you please the majority, the minority can roll up and die at least that is what i think bioware thinks imo.

Too bad the majority also includes people who have never played an rpg before, and also the CoD crowd....Their longtime fans are now the minority.

I doubt that.

ohh really? Try putting a headset on and playing ME3 online. Did that yesterday. The whole gang I was playing with was pretty much only talking about Black Ops 2, and how the zombie mode for it should end up being simmilar to the ME3 multiplayer.

Heaven forbid you play an RPG Shooter and people start talking about the next game in the biggest shooting franchise ever.

Action-Adventure Shooter. Rpgs have stats and let you create your own character, after all.

[Vandicus]

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

[RandomSyhn]

Valadras21 wrote...

Maybe, just maybe, it doesn't make sense for the PC to be an elf or a dwarf in this story? If the rumors are true, and we're somehow involved in stopping a war between mages and the templars- two organizations instituted by human society- isn't that mostly a human problem?

I can't see 99% of dwarves really caring enough to involve themselves, at least not to the degree that our PC likely will, and the only elves that would have both the ability and the interest to do something about the conflict would likely be circle mages. I think some Dalish would prefer if the 2 factions kill each other off, and, with very rare exception, most city elves would be powerless to do anything, even if they cared. Remember that it's illegal for a city elf to even carry a weapon. The city elf I play in origins is a very rare case, and his transgression almost got the alienage wiped out.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, it makes sense that in Origins, we could play different races, because the Blight was the focus of the story, and that was a threat to everyone in the entire world. No one worthy of being called a hero could turn their back on it. Not dwarves, not the dalish, and not the one city elf that knows a blade from a pommel.

The current (rumored) conflict is a threat to the foundation of human society, does it not make sense for a human to solve it? Maybe the rare individual dwarf or elf who cares and wants to do something about the conflict fits a companion role better, rather than the role of the player character?

They said this choice isn't representative of the Dragon age franchise as a whole, and that they want to get back to a variety of playable races at some point, and I accept that. Just bring them back in a story that makes sense to play as all of them. Maybe DA4's conflict will be about something that no Dalish, dwarf, or city elf can turn their back on. Perhaps, the subtly hinted at Qunari invasion that you should've been expecting since DA:O? That's even a story that would make sense to have a Tal-Vashoth Kossith PC.

My thoughts exactly. Well said.

[Iakus]

 Yes, DA3 will have a human protagonist again.  But it looks ilke we'll be able to selects different backgrounds.  I say we wait to see how those work before deciding how much/little customization we're allowed this time.

Heck, maybe we can be elf-blooded 

[The Elder King]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


In the TW2 you played a PC with a more fixed backstory than Hawke, and your choices in the game matter more than in DAO and in DA2.

The W2 had awesome graphics and lots of gratuitous sex.  But Origins outsold both the W2 and DA2 combined.

I never said that TW2 was better DAO, I said that the choices in-game mattered more than DAO and DA2. And anyway, DA2 sold more than TW2. That doesn't make DA2 objectively a better game than TW2.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

its never adressed if you are male or female either.

[Jerrybnsn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

They said that being Human was integral for DA2, but that story has been critiziced by many as lesser than Origins story and that Hawke was not one of the main players in the story itself.
.

Being human in Dragon Age 2 was necessary because the Hawke family was relevant to the narrative.  If BioWare was going to do racial choice and make the family important, they'd have had to make three families with three different stories as there's no way elf!Hawke or dwarf!Hawke would have said while fleeing the Blight, "Hey we have rich relatives in Kirkwall let's go there!"

Because an elf or dwarf escaping the Blight in Ferelden wouldn't make sense?  What more reasons do you need?

[Monica21]

ianvillan wrote...
Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

Massive plothole that if nearly everyone playing saw, then BioWare saw too. From what knowledge I have of game developers, if the player sees ten problems, the dev team sees one hundred.

[Quicksilver26]

i beg to differ Bioware is indeed listening there was a thread awhile back that said if we can not have origins can we at least pick our background. Yes it was implied that we would still like to choose our race but we can't have everything. They still took our feedback into consideration.
this is a case of we are giving what you asked for but still wanting more. Bioware is doing the best that it can with the resources that they have.
Instead of nitpicking what we don't have why don't you try to make the best out of what they are giving us

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

its never adressed if you are male or female either.

So when Bethany addresses FHawke as her sister, its a slip of the tongue right?

[challenger18]

Rawgrim wrote...

challenger18 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

as long as you please the majority, the minority can roll up and die at least that is what i think bioware thinks imo.

Too bad the majority also includes people who have never played an rpg before, and also the CoD crowd....Their longtime fans are now the minority.

I doubt that.

ohh really? Try putting a headset on and playing ME3 online. Did that yesterday. The whole gang I was playing with was pretty much only talking about Black Ops 2, and how the zombie mode for it should end up being simmilar to the ME3 multiplayer.

Heaven forbid you play an RPG Shooter and people start talking about the next game in the biggest shooting franchise ever.

Action-Adventure Shooter. Rpgs have stats and let you create your own character, after all.

Hahaha, that's funny. That was a good one.

[upsettingshorts]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

They said that being Human was integral for DA2, but that story has been critiziced by many as lesser than Origins story and that Hawke was not one of the main players in the story itself.
.

Being human in Dragon Age 2 was necessary because the Hawke family was relevant to the narrative.  If BioWare was going to do racial choice and make the family important, they'd have had to make three families with three different stories as there's no way elf!Hawke or dwarf!Hawke would have said while fleeing the Blight, "Hey we have rich relatives in Kirkwall let's go there!"

Because an elf or dwarf escaping the Blight in Ferelden wouldn't make sense?  What more reasons do you need?

You're cherry picking.  Address the entire argument, please.

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


In the TW2 you played a PC with a more fixed backstory than Hawke, and your choices in the game matter more than in DAO and in DA2.

The W2 had awesome graphics and lots of gratuitous sex.  But Origins outsold both the W2 and DA2 combined.

I never said that TW2 was better DAO, I said that the choices in-game mattered more than DAO and DA2. And anyway, DA2 sold more than TW2. That doesn't make DA2 objectively a better game than TW2.

DA2 was also made for 3 platforms. the Witcher 1 was only made for PC. The second one came out on xbox a year after its release. That small fact might count for some of the sales numbers....

[FINE HERE]

hhh89 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...
A dwarf could never be a mage, so that has nothing to do with DA2. The Hawkes could have simply adopted an elf or dwarf into their family. The majority of Kirkwall hated Hawke at the start for simply being Fereldon so an elf or a dwarf becoming champion after killing the Qunari would have been possible, but they'd still receive some abuse from certain people, obviously. And an elf or dwarf could have become stronger enough to protect Anders, strenght has nothing to do with being human.

Your father was a mage, remember?
An adopted Hawke would've never become noble in Kirkwall. You're understimating the racism in Andrastian society. Probably the same for the Champion title. Or anyway, they wouldn't have the chance to what a human Hawke did, since Hawke was pulled in the Qunari conflict because of his social status.
And I used the wrong word with "strenght". I meant the power Hawke held as a Champion, since Meredith clearly said that Anders was safe because of Hawke.

The elf or dwarf would be adopted by both Papa Hawke and Mama Hawke(I don't remember their names...). When Papa Hawke dies, Mama Hawke is the one that adopted child is connected to. If Papa Hawke being a mage means no chance at being a noble, why does Mama Hawke get to go back after marrying one? And having one as a child?

And I didn't say everyone would be hip-hip-horray for elf or dwarf champion, but there would still be some people who go 'That thing saved my life! It's a hero!" You'd be surprise how being in a life or death situation can change one's view on things.

[thebigbad1013]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

They said that being Human was integral for DA2, but that story has been critiziced by many as lesser than Origins story and that Hawke was not one of the main players in the story itself.
.

Being human in Dragon Age 2 was necessary because the Hawke family was relevant to the narrative.  If BioWare was going to do racial choice and make the family important, they'd have had to make three families with three different stories as there's no way elf!Hawke or dwarf!Hawke would have said while fleeing the Blight, "Hey we have rich relatives in Kirkwall let's go there!"

Because an elf or dwarf escaping the Blight in Ferelden wouldn't make sense?  What more reasons do you need?

Dude, could you try reading the thread you are posting in? The Hawke family was once nobility in Kirkwall, something which would not be possible for a dwarf or an elf. That's reason enough right there.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

its never adressed if you are male or female either.

So when Bethany addresses FHawke as her sister, its a slip of the tongue right?

The only exception to the rule.

[Farbautisonn]

tl:dr: Whiteknights out in force against the few remaining critics that might actually have something valuable to say.

[Rawgrim]

Action-Adventure Shooter. Rpgs have stats and let you create your own character, after all.

[/quote]

Hahaha, that's funny. That was a good one. [/quote]

Haven`t played many rpgs, have you?

[FINE HERE]

Monica21 wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...
Are you serious? Because they're good people? Because they saw a baby elf or dwarf in a dangerous situation and they wanted to help them? Because they saw the baby's family die and could only save the baby? Because there was a random baby left out in the open and noone around to take care of them?

Why does having the ability to have children instantly mean you wouldn't adopt?

Yes, I'm serious. This is not modern day Earth. This is a copy of the Middle Ages. Have you seen any in-game example of adoption from a different race? If random babies are left laying around in fields they get taken to the Chantry, not raised by parents who have enough problems trying to hide their mage-born children.

While yes, so far all we've seen is those kinds of situations, it doesn't mean that the scenario of being rescued by a loving family isn't at all possible. I'm saying that kind of thing may be rare, but it could still have happened.

[ianvillan]

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Masha Potato wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Don't understand why a Dwarf or Elf from Denerim couldn't have had family that was noble in Kirkwall. Might be my ignorance of not knowing whether other races than humans could be nobles in Kirkwall. But even if that is true they could have worked around that issue.

Dwarven nobility only lives in Orzammar and if you don't live in Orzammar you're not nobility any longer. And seriously, do i have to explain about the city elves? You know, those guys who live in alienages and do all the dirty work just because they're elves? 

Or mage Hawke who in one of the places that has a massive templar presence and a reputation for harsh practice towards mages should of been forced into the circle but for the whole game was able to run free without anyone bothering about him.

Why could a mage run free and be a major player in Kirkwall but a Dwarf or Elf is not possible.

So what you're saying is, that you'd be ok with a reskin that is never addressed by the game. Say if you played as a dwarf, you'd have human family members and been born in Orlais to two caring human noblepeoples.

Bioware has stated that they're trying to avoid this precise thing going forward(especially in regards to class and specialization).

No if I play as a Dwarf you should have two Dwarf parents, but why couldn't they be players in the traders guild or any other organisation.

Yet the story was that Hawke became a noble but how did that protect mage Hawke from the Templars who were meant to be some of the worst around. But a Dwarf who raises up to a top position in a major guild which Kirwall relies on is incapable of protecting Anders from the Templars.