3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Harle Cerulean]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Sidney wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The characterization via dialogue being arguably subpar (which I personally am not inclined to dispute) doesn't make the lack of race selection bad, and it wouldn't make the game any better if you could be an elf or dwarf with equally bad dialogue characterization. 

Fair enough. On a more important note, will the protag have a French accent?

Hopefully...no. Given the cheestastic accents so far from Orlais I dread an entire game of people who sound like Maurice Chevalier.

I thought Leliana's accent was alright. :< 

Leliana's was one of about two that didn't make me grit my teeth between both games - possibly because it was actually genuine.  I've seen people talk about how Isolde's voice actress may have had a horrible accent, but her acting made up for it - but for me, the fake accent was so unbearable, it completely ruined her acting.  Mileage varies, I suppose!

[ianvillan]

marshalleck wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

@dheer: You can be suspicious about it all you want, but unless you have other data that's more quantitatively and qualitatively useful, it's likely the most supportable data Bioware have to go on (augmented by critic/user reviews, press articles, social network analysis, BSN forum posts, focus groups, etc.)

So where is the rest of the data from Origins and DA2, and what if the data from both games showed that 70% of players played a mage character should they scrap the other two classes to save resources and make a better story.

How about data in DA2 for who sided with the mages or templars should we make it so you can only have one choice in the next game. Or even better show what the majority of players chosse for the dominate tone and then make it so there is no more choice in dialogue and all of it is auto-dialogue in the main tone.

The main point I am making is why follow the data in the first place if you dont follow all the data.

I already addressed the "why not remove a class" argument earlier. 

And I am in favor of restricting the prevalence of choices to circumstances Bioware can commit to following through to conclusion. See the other thread about removing save game imports. 

You stated  

As for the silly notion of getting rid of a least played class, thats easily dismissed by stating the simple observation that DA gameplay is founded on a trinity of character archetypes and if you get rid of one, the whole thing has to be redesigned. Bioware are motivated here by working smarter, not harder.

But how is getting rid of the other two classes going to ruin the game, you have companions that can be the other classes and then Bioware can design the companions better when you are just one class.

I can say the same as alot of other people are saying that surely getting rid other the other two least played classes (according to the data) could save resources that can make the game better and the story can be improved if you only have one class and the story can reference your class instead of having no effect in the story.

If Bioware wants to say they got rid of races because they never had enough time and money to implement them is ok but when they come out and try to make it seem as if there is another reason like the metric data just makes it seem like they are making excuses.

[marshalleck]

I don't believe Bioware are making excuses or shying away from their decisions. They've always been candid that their main reasoning for making Hawke human only was that it was most fitting for the story they wanted to tell. You are free to disagree with and dislike that explanation all you want, but it seems like it hasn't changed for DA3. I'm sure the metrics reinforce to the developers that they're making the right choice.

[marshalleck]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Leliana's was one of about two that didn't make me grit my teeth between both games - possibly because it was actually genuine.  I've seen people talk about how Isolde's voice actress may have had a horrible accent, but her acting made up for it - but for me, the fake accent was so unbearable, it completely ruined her acting.  Mileage varies, I suppose!

Is Leliana's accent real? I thought I heard it was conceived by the actress as a mix of french and the queen's english. Not that such an accent would be, err, unreal, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:57 .

[ianvillan]

marshalleck wrote...

I don't believe Bioware are making excuses or shying away from their decisions. They've always been candid that their main reasoning for making Hawke human only was that it was most fitting for the story they wanted to tell. You are free to disagree with and dislike that explanation all you want, but it seems like it hasn't changed for DA3. I'm sure the metrics reinforce to the developers that they're making the right choice.

I dont think Bioware are making excuses and believe if they could get the other races in they would.

I am not exactly happy with the decision but I do understand it, I just dont like it when fans or Bioware try to say it was the feedback data that made the decision.

[NitaW]

challenger18 wrote...

Can I just say I find it amusing how people constantly say DA3 will not live up to the Witcher 2, a game where you can only play as a defined male human character. Then people learn in DA3 you will only be able to play as a human, albeit a customizable one, and people are up in arms over it with quite a few saying they took away one of the best things about DAO.

Just another day on BSN I guess.

Agreed.  I skipped The Witcher (both of them) because I could not play a female toon.  Being cast as playing as a human only is not an issue.  As other posters have suggested, it is the story depth and weight of the decisions made by the character that matter, imo.  Please, BioWare, don't lock me into an endgame that is set in stone no matter what, a la DA2!  I enjoyed both DAO and DA2 for different reasons, but as stated, did enjoy them both (the horror!).  I would like to avoid another Hawke, however.  Just sayin'!

[The Hierophant]

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I don't believe Bioware are making excuses or shying away from their decisions. They've always been candid that their main reasoning for making Hawke human only was that it was most fitting for the story they wanted to tell. You are free to disagree with and dislike that explanation all you want, but it seems like it hasn't changed for DA3. I'm sure the metrics reinforce to the developers that they're making the right choice.

I dont think Bioware are making excuses and believe if they could get the other races in they would.

I am not exactly happy with the decision but I do understand it, I just dont like it when fans or Bioware try to say it was the feedback data that made the decision.

Since Bio is dead set on only having one playable race for game, wouldn't it be possible to have a future title where the protagonist is kossith, and the protagonist for for the next game is an elf?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Rune-Chan]

challenger18 wrote...

Can I just say I find it amusing how people constantly say DA3 will not live up to the Witcher 2, a game where you can only play as a defined male human character. Then people learn in DA3 you will only be able to play as a human, albeit a customizable one, and people are up in arms over it with quite a few saying they took away one of the best things about DAO.

Just another day on BSN I guess.

While this is true, you are making the general mistake that most people seem to make when it comes to discussions like this.

You are assuming that the people who complain that it will not live up to The Witcher 2 are the same ones complaining about only having a human protagonist.

I'd say it is very likely that they are different groups of people.

[ianvillan]

The Hierophant wrote...

Since Bio is dead set on only having one playable race for game, wouldn't it be possible to have a future title where the protagonist is kossith, and the protagonist for for the next game is an elf?

It would be possible but it depends on if Bioware could create a great story and if the game would sell as much as they wanted.

I believe If Bioware had the story and believed it could sell there would be no hesitation on Biowares part for a Kossith, Elf or Dwarf playable character.

[marshalleck]

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:16 .

[LilyasAvalon]

I was personally very disappointed we didn't get a Sten background DLC for Origins like Leliana got one. Sten and Duncan were FAR more interesting to me than Leliana was.

[ianvillan]

marshalleck wrote...

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

I think the Qun would be difficult to do a story about because it is quite restricting in certain ways but it could be possible.

I also dont agree with the Elf and Dwarf cultures being similar to human culture. I believe all the different cultures of dragon age are quite unique in themselves.

[The Hierophant]

ianvillan wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Since Bio is dead set on only having one playable race for game, wouldn't it be possible to have a future title where the protagonist is kossith, and the protagonist for for the next game is an elf?

It would be possible but it depends on if Bioware could create a great story and if the game would sell as much as they wanted.

I believe If Bioware had the story and believed it could sell there would be no hesitation on Biowares part for a Kossith, Elf or Dwarf playable character.

If the series makes it past Da3 i hope so, but for the time being i pray the cc is expanded upon for Da3.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:23 .

[TheDevian]

When I first read this news I was so disgusted that I closed every tab I had open that I used to check in the news, since that was the last straw from what I have heard about the game thus far, and as you may guess I have followed it closely. I reopened this one after letting it sink in.

In RPGs I avoid playing Humans whenever possible. It was the last Origin I tried in Origins, and to me still the lamest. The lack of races options in 2 was not the biggest problem it had, but it was easily one of the first to be noticed and Hawke was such an awful human, that it made it that much worse.

Not having a race option does not by default make it 'not an rpg', but then not all rpg's take place in worlds where there are other sentient races (If the Conan world HAD elves and dwarves and such, and they didn't let you play them but only the human races, then that game is also a failure, but Conan's world does not), and most of those games did not give you the option in game one and then take it away. I spent about 5-10 min o ME2 (the only part of any of those games I played) and the controls were so bad I never could do more, the same deal with the Witcher, it wasn't the race issue but the 'action game' controls that make then 'not rpgs' to me. But if The Witcher 1 gave you the option to make your own character of several races, then tow make you only play whats-his-name, then that is not a failure as an rpg, but a failure as a sequel.

The Racial/Origin choices are one of the many reasons I still play Origins (mods help too, but w/o a toolset...), and why I had to really force myself on two. Was there as much acknowledgement of this as there should have been? no. But if you pay attention it is there, and with the role of Grey Warden, it does make since that that take priority.

BiowEAr is free to make whatever game they like, and I am free to buy what I like. Since the people who make the games I like don't work for you any longer and none of you seem to know what is important in an RPG and in maintaining world consistency and continuity anymore, The only reason I even tried to care after the disaster that was game 2 is a testament as to how good Origins was and even it could have been even better.

Mike, a bit of advice, your tastes fit with a story based action game, not an RPG, go where you belong, because this isn't it. Quit harming the genre. The M. Knight of RPGs.

Oh well, I guess after Witch Hunt, Thedas imploded for me, because that is the last thing I am wiling to take as canon. R.I.P. BioWare, it was fun while it lasted. To those of you who abandoned the sinking ship, Good Luck in your new lives, whatever you are doing now.

Ja!

[JuGonzo]

Sidney wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The characterization via dialogue being arguably subpar (which I personally am not inclined to dispute) doesn't make the lack of race selection bad, and it wouldn't make the game any better if you could be an elf or dwarf with equally bad dialogue characterization. 

Fair enough. On a more important note, will the protag have a French accent?

Hopefully...no. Given the cheestastic accents so far from Orlais I dread an entire game of people who sound like Maurice Chevalier.

Why not French instead of English?

[marshalleck]

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

I think the Qun would be difficult to do a story about because it is quite restricting in certain ways but it could be possible.

I also dont agree with the Elf and Dwarf cultures being similar to human culture. I believe all the different cultures of dragon age are quite unique in themselves.

If you deleted the dwarf and elf character models from the game and replaced them with human models, would it ever seem even the slightest bit odd? I don't think so; their cultures, while distinct from other nations of Thedas, are not distinctly non-human. Does that make sense? And while the same could be said of the kossith to a certain degree, there is much about them that does not lead us to easily identify with them.

To make the kossith protagonist story work, you would probably have to remove said character from his or her caste, role, or rank. Maybe set them off on a voyage to seek understanding of a certain concept, like the Sten and the Blight. You would definitely have to provide some sort of contrast between qunari culture and general Thedosian, because being immersed amongst the Qunari would yield little opportunity for voicing alternate belief or action. But regardless, I personally think it would be fascinating. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:31 .

[ianvillan]

The Hierophant wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Since Bio is dead set on only having one playable race for game, wouldn't it be possible to have a future title where the protagonist is kossith, and the protagonist for for the next game is an elf?

It would be possible but it depends on if Bioware could create a great story and if the game would sell as much as they wanted.

I believe If Bioware had the story and believed it could sell there would be no hesitation on Biowares part for a Kossith, Elf or Dwarf playable character.

If the series makes it past Da3 i hope so, but for the time being i pray the cc is expanded upon for Da3.

Bioware has said they plan on expanding the cc for the next game, they have also said the cc will be bigger than Origins we will have to wait and see if it is the case but there is a good chance of it.

[The Hierophant]

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

I think the Qun would be difficult to do a story about because it is quite restricting in certain ways but it could be possible.

I also dont agree with the Elf and Dwarf cultures being similar to human culture. I believe all the different cultures of dragon age are quite unique in themselves.

Agreed on the unexplored potential the Qun culture could present for a protagonist, plus ianvillan don't forget that the kossith pc could probably have a non devout origin like the tal vashoth.

[Either.Ardrey]

I'm completely fine with it. I never played as any of the other races in DAO, so I doubt I'll miss it. And if it means a broader variety of backgrounds/origins for the player character, then I'm all for it. Playable races was never a major concern for me.

[JuGonzo]

TheDevian wrote...

When I first read this news I was so disgusted that I closed every tab I had open that I used to check in the news, since that was the last straw from what I have heard about the game thus far, and as you may guess I have followed it closely. I reopened this one after letting it sink in.

In RPGs I avoid playing Humans whenever possible. It was the last Origin I tried in Origins, and to me still the lamest. The lack of races options in 2 was not the biggest problem it had, but it was easily one of the first to be noticed and Hawke was such an awful human, that it made it that much worse.

Not having a race option does not by default make it 'not an rpg', but then not all rpg's take place in worlds where there are other sentient races (If the Conan world HAD elves and dwarves and such, and they didn't let you play them but only the human races, then that game is also a failure, but Conan's world does not), and most of those games did not give you the option in game one and then take it away. I spent about 5-10 min o ME2 (the only part of any of those games I played) and the controls were so bad I never could do more, the same deal with the Witcher, it wasn't the race issue but the 'action game' controls that make then 'not rpgs' to me. But if The Witcher 1 gave you the option to make your own character of several races, then tow make you only play whats-his-name, then that is not a failure as an rpg, but a failure as a sequel.

The Racial/Origin choices are one of the many reasons I still play Origins (mods help too, but w/o a toolset...), and why I had to really force myself on two. Was there as much acknowledgement of this as there should have been? no. But if you pay attention it is there, and with the role of Grey Warden, it does make since that that take priority.

BiowEAr is free to make whatever game they like, and I am free to buy what I like. Since the people who make the games I like don't work for you any longer and none of you seem to know what is important in an RPG and in maintaining world consistency and continuity anymore, The only reason I even tried to care after the disaster that was game 2 is a testament as to how good Origins was and even it could have been even better.

Mike, a bit of advice, your tastes fit with a story based action game, not an RPG, go where you belong, because this isn't it. Quit harming the genre. The M. Knight of RPGs.

Oh well, I guess after Witch Hunt, Thedas imploded for me, because that is the last thing I am wiling to take as canon. R.I.P. BioWare, it was fun while it lasted. To those of you who abandoned the sinking ship, Good Luck in your new lives, whatever you are doing now.

Ja!

I agree entirely

[ianvillan]

marshalleck wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

I think the Qun would be difficult to do a story about because it is quite restricting in certain ways but it could be possible.

I also dont agree with the Elf and Dwarf cultures being similar to human culture. I believe all the different cultures of dragon age are quite unique in themselves.

If you deleted the dwarf and elf character models from the game and replaced them with human models, would it ever seem even the slightest bit odd? I don't think so; their cultures, while distinct from other nations of Thedas, are not distinctly non-human. Does that make sense? And while the same could be said of the kossith to a certain degree, there is much about them that does not lead us to easily identify with them.

It makes sense what you are saying and you are right about the Qunari being one of the most alien cultures, I believe that the elf and dwarf cultures seem on the surface to be similar but have alot of difference to human culture.

 

[The Hierophant]

ianvillan wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

If the series makes it past Da3 i hope so, but for the time being i pray the cc is expanded upon for Da3.

Bioware has said they plan on expanding the cc for the next game, they have also said the cc will be bigger than Origins we will have to wait and see if it is the case but there is a good chance of it.

Luckily i have the patience of an elderly pedestrian who's crossing an Manhattan avenue during rush hour on a Friday.

[ianvillan]

The Hierophant wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

@The Hierophant:

Of course it is. I think playing as a kossith protagonist would be a fantastically original and bold decision and I'd support Bioware on that 100%, if only because the Qun is so starkly alien and contrasting with everything else in Thedas. Dwarf and elvish culture in DAO is not the slightest bit differentiated from human cultures, both within the context of the game and also from the realm of real-world human experience. While the Qun obviously has roots in real world theological and philosophical precepts, it's radically unlike anything else within the game. That would make it incredibly fertile ground for exploration and immersion. Elves and dwarves...really not so much.

I think the Qun would be difficult to do a story about because it is quite restricting in certain ways but it could be possible.

I also dont agree with the Elf and Dwarf cultures being similar to human culture. I believe all the different cultures of dragon age are quite unique in themselves.

Agreed on the unexplored potential the Qun culture could present for a protagonist, plus ianvillan don't forget that the kossith pc could probably have a non devout origin like the tal vashoth.

I think a non Qunari Kossith would be a great character to play, and it has great potential to be a different story to what we are used to playing.

[Maclimes]

marshalleck wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Leliana's was one of about two that didn't make me grit my teeth between both games - possibly because it was actually genuine.  I've seen people talk about how Isolde's voice actress may have had a horrible accent, but her acting made up for it - but for me, the fake accent was so unbearable, it completely ruined her acting.  Mileage varies, I suppose!

Is Leliana's accent real? I thought I heard it was conceived by the actress as a mix of french and the queen's english. Not that such an accent would be, err, unreal, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Corinne Kempa, the voice actress for Leliana, is French. As in born, raised, and educated in France. 

Modifié par Maclimes, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Teddie Sage]

TheDevian wrote...

Mike, a bit of advice, your tastes fit with a story based action game, not an RPG, go where you belong, because this isn't it. Quit harming the genre. The M. Knight of RPGs.

Mike Laidlaw isn't even part of the writing team. Your argument is invalid.