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[The Elder King]

Felya87 wrote...



And I hate nobles with a passion: I don't like the nobility, no matter the race. And having Hawke being a forced noble, was another bad thing for me.

I'd say Hawke lives as a noble from Act 2, but since he lived most of his life as commoner, he should be a bit different from the normal nobles. Though I don't have a problem playing as a noble.

[Felya87]

hhh89 wrote...

Felya87 wrote...



And I hate nobles with a passion: I don't like the nobility, no matter the race. And having Hawke being a forced noble, was another bad thing for me.

I'd say Hawke lives as a noble from Act 2, but since he lived most of his life as commoner, he should be a bit different from the normal nobles. Though I don't have a problem playing as a noble.

I know he/she lives as one only  from act two...but that doesn't means I have to like it. i don't remember only one dialogue (or choise of one) I could made my Hawke say: "I don't like this boring noble life. I would prefer use all that money to live at the Anged men with Varric and Isabela, and don't see noble "doing it" at the window."
A rogue Hawke can find him/herself in an hawkard situation at being...well, the exactly same people who was his/her work rob from.

it really feels too piloted. I didn't liked it one bit.

[The Elder King]

Felya87 wrote...



I know he/she lives as one only  from act two...but that doesn't means I have to like it. i don't remember only one dialogue (or choise of one) I could made my Hawke say: "I don't like this boring noble life. I would prefer use all that money to live at the Anged men with Varric and Isabela, and don't see noble "doing it" at the window."
A rogue Hawke can find him/herself in an hawkard situation at being...well, the exactly same people who was his/her work rob from.

it really feels too piloted. I didn't liked it one bit.

I didn't say you have to like it. I was saying that he's different from the others.
There was a reason to regain the noble status, though: protecting either yourself or Bethany from the templars. Money without status wouldn't have protected Hawke or Bethany. I can understand the fact that you didn't like it, but there was a reason for regainiing the noble status. I think it made sense.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 novembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Felya87]

hhh89 wrote...

Felya87 wrote...



I know he/she lives as one only  from act two...but that doesn't means I have to like it. i don't remember only one dialogue (or choise of one) I could made my Hawke say: "I don't like this boring noble life. I would prefer use all that money to live at the Anged men with Varric and Isabela, and don't see noble "doing it" at the window."
A rogue Hawke can find him/herself in an hawkard situation at being...well, the exactly same people who was his/her work rob from.

it really feels too piloted. I didn't liked it one bit.

I didn't say you have to like it. I was saying that he's different from the others.
There was a reason to regain the noble status, though: protecting either yourself or Bethany from the templars. Money without status wouldn't have protected Hawke or Bethany. I can understand the fact that you didn't like it, but there was a reason for regainiing the noble status. I think it made sense.

You're right it should make sense...if Bethany is alive. or not taken by the Templars. and money and right persons should be enought, even without the status. After all, that is enought with Varric protecting Merrill...

[The Elder King]

Felya87 wrote...



You're right it should make sense...if Bethany is alive. or not taken by the Templars. and money and right persons should be enought, even without the status. After all, that is enought with Varric protecting Merrill...

Merrill and Anders were found by the templars only in Act 3, and at that point it's thanks to Hawke's status that Meredith didn't take them. Hakwe was working to regain his noble status in Ac 1 because the noble status would've protected him or Bethany in the case the templars have found them. Merrill and Anders lived in the Alienage and Darktown, where they didn't live in good condition, and the people here (and Varric's henchmen) are enough to protect them. Hakwe lived in Lowtown, with a lot of more risk. Plus, he wanted to regain his noble status for their mother too.
For a mage Hakwe, the situation makes complete sense. For a warrior/rogue Hakwe, it made sense at least until the moment Bethany is captured or became a GW. After that, Hawke could've decided to use the money to live as he wish, though there's still Leandra. If she regained the noble status, Hawke is by default a noble.
He could've lived in the Hanged Man regardless (I remember a banter in which someone ask Varric why he lives in Lowtown and not Hightown): but I don't know if Bioware wanted to make two different lifestyle. And regardless, we know well that they didn't have that much time during development.

[Felya87]

hhh89 wrote...

Felya87 wrote...



You're right it should make sense...if Bethany is alive. or not taken by the Templars. and money and right persons should be enought, even without the status. After all, that is enought with Varric protecting Merrill...

Merrill and Anders were found by the templars only in Act 3, and at that point it's thanks to Hawke's status that Meredith didn't take them. Hakwe was working to regain his noble status in Ac 1 because the noble status would've protected him or Bethany in the case the templars have found them. Merrill and Anders lived in the Alienage and Darktown, where they didn't live in good condition, and the people here (and Varric's henchmen) are enough to protect them. Hakwe lived in Lowtown, with a lot of more risk. Plus, he wanted to regain his noble status for their mother too.
For a mage Hakwe, the situation makes complete sense. For a warrior/rogue Hakwe, it made sense at least until the moment Bethany is captured or became a GW. After that, Hawke could've decided to use the money to live as he wish, though there's still Leandra. If she regained the noble status, Hawke is by default a noble.
He could've lived in the Hanged Man regardless (I remember a banter in which someone ask Varric why he lives in Lowtown and not Hightown): but I don't know if Bioware wanted to make two different lifestyle. And regardless, we know well that they didn't have that much time during development.

Merrill and Anders would be protected by Hawke regardless. not because is a noble, but because is the Hero who saves Kirkwall, and they are his/her companions, who helped. They are heroes almost as Hawke. It would make no sense for the Templars capture the companion of the Hero's town. People would not take that well, I think.
It would be ungrateful, Meredith herself made a point that Anders is still free because is the Hero's companion. not because he is a noble's companion.

All the "noble thing" is quite unuseful for the story, and forced in a way that made everything say: that's not your character.
At least to me.

 have you noted we are discussing our different point of view without attaching or hating each other? scary thing here

[The Elder King]

Felya87 wrote...



Merrill and Anders would be protected by Hawke regardless. not because is a noble, but because is the Hero who saves Kirkwall, and they are his/her companions, who helped. They are heroes almost as Hawke. It would make no sense for the Templars capture the companion of the Hero's town. People would not take that well, I think.
It would be ungrateful, Meredith herself made a point that Anders is still free because is the Hero's companion. not because he is a noble's companion.

All the "noble thing" is quite unuseful for the story, and forced in a way that made everything say: that's not your character.
At least to me.

 have you noted we are discussing our different point of view without attaching or hating each other? scary thing here

I wasn't saying that Hakwe was able to protect Anders and Merril because he's a noble, but because of his status, which isnt the "hero" status, but the Champion one. My poin was that money alone wouldn't be able to protect them the moment Meredith went paranoid and she found about Anders and Merrill. But if Hawke died before Act 3 because he ate too much nugs, Meredith would've have locked Anders and Merrill in the Gallows.
I think there's nothing wrong in not feeling that Hawke is you character because he's a noble. What I'm saying that for a mage Hawke it made perfect sense and that for the other it made sense for Hawke to try to regain the noble status in Act 1. After that, they could've made Hawke decides to live in the Hanged Man, but they didn't have the time for it (and probably they didn't want to do it). In my opinion the rise to power of Hawke from commoner to noble to Champion made sense, though is surely forced on the players, and it's obvious that for people that don't like playing nobles or don't want to be forced in nobility it's not good.
About discussing without attacking each others, I like discussing with people when the discussion in civil, regardless of my and the other person point of view.

[FaWa]

Just asking if anyone actually wanted this. I certainly didn't

[terdferguson123]

I can't say that I am not dissapointed a little bit. Afterall, playing as an Elf was one of my favorite parts of DA:O and I think it added immensely to the immersion in that game.

However, I can deal with the human only decision as long as you can find some way to make that character feel like you made it or that it is your character instead of Bioware's.

The problem with Hawke in DAII is exactly what I described above, sure you can make choices, but the overall feeling was that Hawke was more of a set character than a character that I created. For example: The game gave me the feeling that Hawke rose to Champion by defeating the Qunari, that Hawke sided with the mages in the mage/templar conflict etc etc. It never felt like that was my own doing. Where in Origins, I felt like it was my character that rose from a poor city elf life to a Grey Warden, and it was my character that defeated the Archdemon. It sounds silly when you look at it like that, I realize, but it makes all the difference in the world when playing a choice driven game such as Dragon Age.

[Caiden012]

terdferguson123 wrote...

I can't say that I am not dissapointed a little bit. Afterall, playing as an Elf was one of my favorite parts of DA:O and I think it added immensely to the immersion in that game.

However, I can deal with the human only decision as long as you can find some way to make that character feel like you made it or that it is your character instead of Bioware's.

The problem with Hawke in DAII is exactly what I described above, sure you can make choices, but the overall feeling was that Hawke was more of a set character than a character that I created. For example: The game gave me the feeling that Hawke rose to Champion by defeating the Qunari, that Hawke sided with the mages in the mage/templar conflict etc etc. It never felt like that was my own doing. Where in Origins, I felt like it was my character that rose from a poor city elf life to a Grey Warden, and it was my character that defeated the Archdemon. It sounds silly when you look at it like that, I realize, but it makes all the difference in the world when playing a choice driven game such as Dragon Age.

I completely agree.

[Zeleras]

Not a deal breaker but very disappointing.

[Jonata]

I'm actually curious about BioWare's plans for the human protagonist of Dragon Age 3. Obviously is not something they are doing to please the fans (since the vast majority wanted the multiple races of Origins) so they must have something in store to justify what seems to be the repetition of a very badly received feature from DA2.

I'll wait until we know more. Perhaps when this is over we will be glad about it, who knows.

[Vilegrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In your opinion anyway. In mine, humans are deceitful, power hungery jerks whom goal is to enslave anything that's coherently self-aware. Personally an elf seems more "heroic"

I guess we just need to stop hiding the deceitful, power hungry elves then.

the one that I remember meeting?   (That guy who made the Lady of the Forest.) 

[Giant ambush beetle]

Human protagonist only doesn't bother me in the slightest, I like to *be* the character I have created and thats kind of hard to do with a Dwarf or Elf NPC. I started different race campaigns in various RPG's but it just never felt right and lost interest to continue quick - its just my playing style, I don't really need any other race than human.
Though I can definitely see the appeal of choosing a different race and feel sorry for those who wanted their Elf or Dwarf etc. protagonist.

(That being said - if there was a playable Qunari I'd definitely give a Qunari origin a try.  
They're a cool and highly interesting race. )

[Taint Master]

Jonata wrote...

I'm actually curious about BioWare's plans for the human protagonist of Dragon Age 3. Obviously is not something they are doing to please the fans (since the vast majority wanted the multiple races of Origins) so they must have something in store to justify what seems to be the repetition of a very badly received feature from DA2.

I'll wait until we know more. Perhaps when this is over we will be glad about it, who knows.

It wasn't badly received.

[Raven Kesrar]

In my case I like the idea, I first played DA2 and having a voiced character was great , so now that I got DA Origins and that I’m plying it for the first time, I miss having a voiced character since they are no face expressions when you have to talk , please BIOWARE being a human is ok for me, its usually my pick, just give me a voice like in DA2  and face expressions are welcome to 

[Shadow Fox]

Vilegrim wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In your opinion anyway. In mine, humans are deceitful, power hungery jerks whom goal is to enslave anything that's coherently self-aware. Personally an elf seems more "heroic"

I guess we just need to stop hiding the deceitful, power hungry elves then.

the one that I remember meeting?   (That guy who made the Lady of the Forest.) 

Athenril and that crazy elf chick with a BFS may also qualify.

[Felya87]

Taint Master wrote...

Jonata wrote...

I'm actually curious about BioWare's plans for the human protagonist of Dragon Age 3. Obviously is not something they are doing to please the fans (since the vast majority wanted the multiple races of Origins) so they must have something in store to justify what seems to be the repetition of a very badly received feature from DA2.

I'll wait until we know more. Perhaps when this is over we will be glad about it, who knows.

It wasn't badly received.

nor well, for that matter.

[Drasanil]

Jonata wrote...

I'm actually curious about BioWare's plans for the human protagonist of Dragon Age 3. Obviously is not something they are doing to please the fans (since the vast majority wanted the multiple races of Origins) so they must have something in store to justify what seems to be the repetition of a very badly received feature from DA2.

The stated reason was 'opportunity cost' which pardon me for not being productive loosely translates as 'we couldn't be bothered'.  What ever story reasons there might or might not be, probably won't be any more meaningful than Hawke's rather flimsy and superficial personal content in DA2.  

Modifié par Drasanil, 16 novembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Cipher266]

I will add my penny of a thought - I really loved all the different origins in DAO, it made things...my several, several playthroughs very unique. The first initial emotion when the news that DA2 was not going to have other options besides human was disappointment. But since then I really appreciate that the story in it's self was unique and molded to a specific character, who was human, who had a unique background because it involved why the protagonist was human (family and birth). Technically both DAO and DA2 had the same structure for something different and a history attached to the character that made us care right off the bat. That being said, I would like the option to choose a race. I enjoy bringing who my character is into every hour of the game in many ways but I particularly enjoy the cleverness of how NPC's and the story itself reacts to what my character is.

[Treviri]

I usually play as Human.
Only a few times as a Dwarf or an Elf. Those races fits just for the origin, where a warden can be whatever you want.
DA III will be probably focused on the mage-templars war, and as you can see, dwarves cannot use magic, and the elfs mages are a little few. (just take a look at origin and DAII).
Playing as one of those races will make no sense for the "inquisition".

In DA III I want only few things:
-NOT a skyrim
-more interactions with companions, npc and places in general
-immersive romance ( i loved all your romances, a pity for ME3, where jack or miri are so underestimated)
-a long single player journey, not a multiplayer-focused game
-welcome the character personalisation
-voiced or not voiced hero, doesn't really matter to me
-I'm ok also with the "origins" talk controls and the wheel. Not a real difference


Forgive my english. Have pity.

[Krazy-Chibi]

I'm a bit disappointed, I liked being able to choose what race my character was in Origins. Whenever I play games where you can choose your race I tend to choose something other than human (Though i'm just one of those people that finds playing a human boring).

Modifié par Krazy-Chibi, 15 novembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Drasanil]

(Minor Threadomancy FTW.)

I’ve been thinking on this and what exactly is the big problem/hurdle in implementing race choices in DA3? Looking at it from a technical stand point and potential storyline one working off DA2’s human centric content, it doesn’t seem there is a really good reason not to do it. Point by point:

Voice acting: In theory a big hurdle given Bioware’s choice to implement accents by race. This could be a problem, were it not for the fact no one would reasonably expect to get 6 (or 8 if factoring the Kossith) separate PC voice actors for the same character. Secondly it would also provide Bioware with the opportunity to break from from the ‘accent by races’ model which is in itself poorly thought out and implement a much more sensible ‘accent by nationality’ model. We’ve already had some examples of this such as Anora’s elf servant with an orlesian accent.

The Story: This is also another biggy, were it not for the fact DG already said they would be implementing variable backgrounds for the main character which would have an impact on the game. Unless these background choices are completely token in their nature and affect, it is hard to be believe it would be much more burdensome for the team to cut a few of these in order to make some of the human-centric content work with elves and dwarves. DG already said elves could be admitted into the Andastrian faith as layman and even clergy, if only rarely for the last part. We’ve also dwarf converts so the Inquisition’s presumably faithful over tones are not an insurmountable challenge. (Yes that means elves/dwarves, wouldn’t get a bunch of super unique awesome content, and that’s fine, I’d rather have a workable something, than just flat out nothing.)

The Cinematic Experience: This would add some work, but to honest most of those would be simple camera angle adjustments. There were very few instance cut scenes in DA2 where Hawke had extensive or prolonged direct physical interaction with other actors. Combined with the fact that if DA2 is any indicator elves are going to be roughly the same height as humans would eliminate much of the reworking needed. Leaving the only adjustments needed for dwarves, which would be minimal unless our inquisitor plans on running around groping everyone in every conversation.

In Game Models: The big bugbear so to speak, Bioware claims (or at least did in DA2) that if they were to implement race choices they would have had to make 6 models for everything, as opposed to just 2 for male/female and that this would have been a heavy burden on resources. Alright, that’s a good one, but Bioware won’t be using the old DAO/DA2 engine again. So this in fact should be an opportunity for them as opposed to a hurdle. Skyrim already showed what you can do with variable body meshes. Not only did the same mesh function for all races which used different height/weight parameters, but it further added a body slider allowing for more physical variance between the same races. Despite all this, armours only needed two meshes per gender to account for the in game weight slider. Designing a similar style of flexible body mesh would likely be more complex and labour intensive than simply knocking out a few static meshes per race, but it would also be an investment and good one to make. The immediate benefit for this game, would be an overall reduction in resources used on screen, with the game only needing to load one model as opposed to several per race, but the benefit would go further than that. For future games the work would already be largely done meaning Bioware could actually just work to carry over/tweak the initial models and save themselves trouble of having to constantly knock out new body meshes for every race and gender.

--- --- ---

So, given all the above mentioned and the relatively steady (though admittedly not necessarily overwhelming ) demand for the return of multi-race PCs, it’s hard to see why Bioware wouldn’t at least make a good faith effort to try and do it. As opposed to cutting it out at a stage so early that they won’t even be able talk about anything else game related for months to come. Now I could be wrong and they may have a really really good reason for restricting choice to human only again. But, it’s hard to believe given DA2 wasn’t exactly a great showcase of the same design decision, and the only other thing mentioned so far was opportunity cost which is incredibly vague.

[Varus Praetor]

DA:O is in my top 10 favorite games.  I absolutely loved the origin stories and the different races.  It was a huge source of replayability for me.  I must have played DA:O through 4 or 5 times.

On the other hand DA2 was a gigantic suckfest.  The backstory of Hawke was boring and poorly implemented.  And there was nothing I could do about it.  I was stuck.  This was one of the major contributors to DA2's utter lack of replayability for me.

The fact that DA3 seems to have much more in common with DA2 that DA:O is disheartening, but not surprising.

In short, put the extra effort in, don't short change the fans and go back to playable origin stories for multiple races.  If this means the PC can't be fully voiced, I'm 100% fine with that.

[MAdman1979]

I know it's all set now but please BioWare......the option to choose the PC race in the next game....pleeeease?