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[nightscrawl]

ianvillan wrote...

David Gaider should include the genomes of all the different race and creatures in the new world of Thedas book, that might be the only way to stop the arguements and prove who is right.

You could just take posts like this at face value and realize that Dragon Age genetics are whatever they say they are, or you could see that post is over three years old and think they might have changed their views on some things. Remember, this is a world with magic and other things (elves, dwarves) that our own world does not have. This is in addition to the fact that next to nothing is known about the origins of the elves and dwarves. IMO it's absurd to go into that much detail about it.

That said, you all might as well wait until The World of Thedas is released to see if any information about topics like this is in it.

Not only do the writers have to keep in line with the lore they have made for themselves, but in creating new or additional lore it is in addition to their work of NPC character creation, plots, and involved dialog trees.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 janvier 2013 - 04:36 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Errr... man? 

?

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
I'm sorry, but the argument of the story being only about human nobles doesn't hold water. It could have been included with minor tweaks. Whatever the story is for DA3, I'm sure different races could be easily included with minor tweaks if BioWare actually wanted to put in the time and effort to do so.

Dwarfs can't be mages.

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

Dwarfs can't be mages.

The story doesn't really rely on part of your family being a mage.  It's given a cursory mention at the start of Act 1 as a weak justification for why you need money, then pretty much ignored.  And after Act 1, the family mage might well be dead, so you can't say it's required after that.

So you basically need another excuse for going along with Varric, and you're set.  My suggestion - Dwarf!Hawke is actually a Tethras.

[Dysjong]

It's a bit sad that we only get to play as human in the next DA game, but i can accept it. What i do wish for is some very well made backgrounds to give the player some idea about there own char. I liked the way Mass effect did it in the first game( it felt a bit to short) that we had two times three options regarding commander Shepard.

I also hope that the choice of what class we play also affect the story, which content is open for the class and the reactions of the vast amount of NPC's. I mean, if you wanna make a break into some merchant house, it would for make sense that the NPC that offers this assignment is looking for a shady person.

[LinksOcarina]

Wulfram wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Dwarfs can't be mages.

The story doesn't really rely on part of your family being a mage.  It's given a cursory mention at the start of Act 1 as a weak justification for why you need money, then pretty much ignored.  And after Act 1, the family mage might well be dead, so you can't say it's required after that.

So you basically need another excuse for going along with Varric, and you're set.  My suggestion - Dwarf!Hawke is actually a Tethras.

Actually, without the mage being a part of the picture in Act 1, there is no conflicting motivation for the siblings, Hawke, or anyone to get out of the slums other than gaining money. Plus, there is no reason to go in on the expedition either. 

Plus, if the mage in the family is still alive (or is Hawke) it kind of becomes imporant later on depending on the perception of the overall plot, so really, its kind of important that the Hawke family have some magic in their bloodline, and not be dwarves. 

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
The story doesn't really rely on part of your family being a mage.

It absolutely does. That's why Leandra leaves. You're not in Kirkwall for the very reason that Leandra left with Malcom. That's the entire scope of her character. Bethany's too - her whole focus is on what being an apostate meant for her family. That's also the reason given for wanting to go on the expedition in the first place.

It's the arc of the sibling, and it's used to give a player the opposite pull from what their class is (toward mages as a non-mage and toward non-mages as a mage).

It's given a cursory mention at the start of Act 1 as a weak justification for why you need money, then pretty much ignored.  And after Act 1, the family mage might well be dead, so you can't say it's required after that.

You can think it's done badly - but they added more content for it than DA:O did for origins, and even for a mage PC, DA2 still ignores your race less than DA:O ignored how you were an elf.

So you basically need another excuse for going along with Varric, and you're set.  My suggestion - Dwarf!Hawke is actually a Tethras.

That wouldn't work for what Bioware wanted. I get you think they did a ****ty job - but they still would need to radically alter the story.

• Leandra would need a different reason for leaving.
• Carver's whole character no longer works - there has to be a new one.
• Bethany' s character also no longer works.
• Bioware loses plot develops and parallels they were going for (cf. the point about opposite sides).

You can get some of this with an elf. But you still need to entirely rework Leandra's character.

Personally, I think with more time DA2 coud have worked with an elf family. But it can't work with a dwarf family.

[ianvillan]

Faerunner wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

OK, but those people are wrong because it's not silly at all. The only reason that DA:Origins was able to set the three races off on level footing is because the PC became a Grey Warden, and members of that order are generally treated equally by outsiders regardless of their race. For example; since the story of DA2 revolves around a family with a noble background in a very human city, this pretty much rules out being an elf straight away.

Not true at all. The overall story was about a family of Fereldan refugees who fled the Blight, joined some relatives in Kirkwall, and eventually made a name for themselves through a series of errands and fetch-quests. The human noble thing is just a minor background trait mentioned here or there, but is not integral to the plot.

Prologue: A Fereldan family flees the Blight, decides to join family in Kirkwall, and is let in because of criminal connections inside. Act 1: You save money through fetch quests for and become rich from Varric and Bartrand's Deep Roads Expodition. Act 2: After more fetch quests, you drive away the Qunari and are declared Champion for saving the city from mass slaughter and conversion. Act 3: You take a side in the Mage/Templar conflict and inspire a mage rebellion worldwide because of your success in standing up to Meredith (regardless of said side).

You don't need to be a human noble for any of those.

Prologue: Your noble name is useless getting into the city. The guard doesn't care about your connection to the Amells, only agrees to fetch your relative inside because you stepped in during a fight (which he's grateful for), and Gamlen only gets you into the city from his personal criminal connections. Elves and dwarves could have a similar progression of events with their respective relatives and criminal connections too.

Act 1: Varric invites you to be partners because of your hard-earned reputation, not family history. You don't have to be an Amell to buy a fancy house in the fancy part of town. The time skip can gloss over the humans' reaction to an elf or dwarf moving in and assume they eventually got usd to it by...

Act 2: The Qunari ransack the Kirkwall as sure as the darkspawn ransacked Denerim during the Blight. The Arishok locks all the nobles in a room, throws the Viscount's head at their feet, and is about to do something gruesome to them when the protagonist arrives in the nick of time. They would be so greatful that they could believably name anyone Champion for saving them from that fate. 

Act 3: Really? You don't have to be a human noble to side with mages or templars in the final battle or inspire rebellion worldwide because of--I don't know--your actions standing up to Meredith. Do the legends talk about a human noble that swooped in to defend the common man from mages/templars? No, it's the nameless, faceless Champion, who could believably be an elf or dwarf as sure as the nameless, faceless Warden could be an elf or dwarf based on their actions, not heritage.

I'm sorry, but the argument of the story being only about human nobles doesn't hold water. It could have been included with minor tweaks. Whatever the story is for DA3, I'm sure different races could be easily included with minor tweaks if BioWare actually wanted to put in the time and effort to do so.

It wasn't me that said what you quoted, but I agree with everything you said.

Also how is Hawke really affected by being a mage or having a mage sister, because at the end of act 1 Bethany is taken away but you dont speak to her or see her in the circle, I actually forgot all about her until she briefly turned back up in act 3. Also Bethany could be killed in the deep roads so what would be the motivation for Hawke in the mage/templar conflict if his sister is dead.

I personally want to know why a Human, Elf or dwarf would even want to deal with the crazy possessed mages or the evil murdering templars at all, and after getting a fortune from the deep roads not just move to a better city or country.

Modifié par ianvillan, 11 janvier 2013 - 07:58 .

[LobselVith8]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The story doesn't really rely on part of your family being a mage.  It's given a cursory mention at the start of Act 1 as a weak justification for why you need money, then pretty much ignored.  And after Act 1, the family mage might well be dead, so you can't say it's required after that.

So you basically need another excuse for going along with Varric, and you're set.  My suggestion - Dwarf!Hawke is actually a Tethras. 

Actually, without the mage being a part of the picture in Act 1, there is no conflicting motivation for the siblings, Hawke, or anyone to get out of the slums other than gaining money. Plus, there is no reason to go in on the expedition either.

Becoming wealthy is a motivation that would work for an elven or dwarven protagonist. And the mage aspect for apostate Hawke or Bethany is pretty much ignored. 

Like Wulfram said, the story doesn't rely on part of your family being a mage. The protagonist's mother could have had family in Kirkwall, regardless of the Amell aspect, and there could be tensions between the protagonist and his (or her) sibling for a number of reasons. Bethany and Carver are also gone once Act I concludes, so they aren't even much of a factor in the overall story.

LinksOcarina wrote...

Plus, if the mage in the family is still alive (or is Hawke) it kind of becomes imporant later on depending on the perception of the overall plot, so really, its kind of important that the Hawke family have some magic in their bloodline, and not be dwarves. 

Why is that, when it's pretty much ignored throughout the story? I felt that my Surana Warden was more recognized as a mage than my apostate Hawke ever was. Being a mage is hardly a factor, even when it should be. It's the reason why people drew comics and made jokes mocking this aspect of the game.

[ianvillan]

In Exile wrote...


[*]Leandra would need a different reason for leaving.
[*]Carver's whole character no longer works - there has to be a new one.

[*]Bethany' s character also no longer works.

[*]Bioware loses plot develops and parallels they were going for (cf. the point about opposite sides).
You can get some of this with an elf. But you still need to entirely rework Leandra's character.

Personally, I think with more time DA2 coud have worked with an elf family. But it can't work with a dwarf family.

It could easily of been that your family had a buisiness in ferelden that was distroyed by the blight and you lost everything, but you happen to have an uncle in the Kirkwall merchants guild, so of you set for Kirkwall to just like Human Hawke and you would be more justified going there then Human Hawke taking a mage into a known hardcore templar city.

[AlexJK]

ianvillan wrote...

I personally want to know why a Human, Elf or dwarf would even want to deal with the crazy possessed mages or the evil murdering templars at all, and after getting a fortune from the deep roads not just move to a better city or country.

Now there's a question!

Faerunner wrote...

The time skip can gloss over the humans' reaction to an elf or dwarf moving in and assume they eventually got usd to it by...

Dwarf, maybe. Ain't no rich elf moving into Hightown when they could be forced to live in the alienage. (Well, except Fenris, but that's slightly different.)

I'm sorry, but the argument of the story being only about human nobles doesn't hold water. It could have been included with minor tweaks.

Yeah, and while we're tweaking the story, we might as well make the PC a grey warden, exchange mages for darkspawn and play Origins again. The fact is that the DA2 DOES contain all those things relevant to a human noble - backstory about Gamlen, Leandra and Hawke's father, the tension with your sibling, the Birthright quest, the mansion itself...

I never said that you can't make DA2's story multi-race friendly if you change it.

[LobselVith8]

AlexJK wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

The time skip can gloss over the humans' reaction to an elf or dwarf moving in and assume they eventually got usd to it by...

Dwarf, maybe. Ain't no rich elf moving into Hightown when they could be forced to live in the alienage. (Well, except Fenris, but that's slightly different.)

Elves have moved out of the Alienage. Rampant racism tends to lead to humans burning down their homes. I assume humans might try the same with an elven protagonist who tried to move to Hightown, which could become part of the narrative.

AlexJK wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

I'm sorry, but the argument of the story being only about human nobles doesn't hold water. It could have been included with minor tweaks.

Yeah, and while we're tweaking the story, we might as well make the PC a grey warden, exchange mages for darkspawn and play Origins again.

There was also a human noble in Origins. I think the point is, why couldn't there have been an elven or dwarven protagonist, when the overall story would basically be the same? Family escapes the Blight to get to nearby city-state of Kirkwall, the protagonist makes money to fund expedition into the Deep Roads, protagonist becomes wealthy, protagonist is sought out by Arishok, and protagonist ends Qunari occupation of Kirkwall. None of those story elements demand a human noble.

It seems the only reason Hawke could only be human was because of time constraints, not because the story requires a "human only" protagonist. That does lead to the question about the Inquisitor being human as well.

AlexJK wrote...

The fact is that the DA2 DOES contain all those things relevant to a human noble - backstory about Gamlen, Leandra and Hawke's father, the tension with your sibling, the Birthright quest, the mansion itself...

I never said that you can't make DA2's story multi-race friendly if you change it. 

These are minor aspects of the story, however.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote..
Becoming wealthy is a motivation that would work for an elven or dwarven protagonist. And the mage aspect for apostate Hawke or Bethany is pretty much ignored. 

It could have, but that's not the justification offered.

Like Wulfram said, the story doesn't rely on part of your family being a mage.

I just showed you that it does. They do an incredibly bad job of it, but that doesn't mean that it didn't matter.

The protagonist's mother could have had family in Kirkwall, regardless of the Amell aspect, and there could be tensions between the protagonist and his (or her) sibling for a number of reasons. Bethany and Carver are also gone once Act I concludes, so they aren't even much of a factor in the overall story.

"Could have". Which is to say, they could have changed the story so it didn't matter.

Why is that, when it's pretty much ignored throughout the story? I felt that my Surana Warden was more recognized as a mage than my apostate Hawke ever was.

Whatever you felt, you were wrong.

Being a mage is hardly a factor, even when it should be. It's the reason why people drew comics and made jokes mocking this aspect of the game.

The templars ignore you, but frankly they did that in DA:O and no one complained, even when they  had no reason to believe you were a GW instead of an apostate lying about being a GW.

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...
It could easily of been that your family had a buisiness in ferelden that was distroyed by the blight and you lost everything, but you happen to have an uncle in the Kirkwall merchants guild, so of you set for Kirkwall to just like Human Hawke and you would be more justified going there then Human Hawke taking a mage into a known hardcore templar city.

That would be a different story. I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm just saying the justification of "it couldn't work with the story they told" is true.

[ianvillan]

In Exile wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
It could easily of been that your family had a buisiness in ferelden that was distroyed by the blight and you lost everything, but you happen to have an uncle in the Kirkwall merchants guild, so of you set for Kirkwall to just like Human Hawke and you would be more justified going there then Human Hawke taking a mage into a known hardcore templar city.

That would be a different story. I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm just saying the justification of "it couldn't work with the story they told" is true.

How would it be a different story, Hawkes family lost everything in Lothering to the blight and happened to have a noble uncle in Kirkwall so they set out to kirkwall. How is saying that you lost your buisiness and that your uncle was in the merchants guild going to make it so you cant go on the deep roads expedition in act 1, you cant stop the Arishok in act 2 and cant fight both the crazy mages and the evil templars in act 3.

[AlexJK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves have moved out of the Alienage. Rampant racism tends to lead to humans burning down their homes. I assume humans might try the same with an elven protagonist who tried to move to Hightown, which could become part of the narrative.

So now we've written a whole new start to act 2 - what got cut to include that?

There was also a human noble in Origins. I think the point is, why couldn't there have been an elven or dwarven protagonist, when the overall story would basically be the same? Family escapes the Blight to get to nearby city-state of Kirkwall, the protagonist makes money to fund expedition into the Deep Roads, protagonist becomes wealthy, protagonist is sought out by Arishok, and protagonist ends Qunari occupation of Kirkwall. None of those story elements demand a human noble.

No, they don't, but you've cut out all the elements that did. So do you propose that the whole game is correspondingly shorter, or do we need to reinstate all that cut material but in three times the quantity so it works for all three races?

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...
How would it be a different story, Hawkes family lost everything in Lothering to the blight and happened to have a noble uncle in Kirkwall so they set out to kirkwall. 

Is Carver's conflict that Hawke and Bethany were mages, and he could never shine as a warrior in a family of mages? That he was always forced to hide himself and never stand out because they were always hiding from the authorities?

Is Bethany's conflict that she feels that her magic forced her family to isolate itself to protect her, and that her mother could never settle down in her own home because of her?

Was Leandra banished, basically, by her family because she married an apostate that would bring more magic into the family line, which is what began the downfall of the Amells (when the Human Mage Warden was born)?

Is there a pull for you - when you're a non-mage - to either directly protect you mage sibling or think about them during the war?

Did your mage father work with the Grey Warden's to seal Corypheus?

How is saying that you lost your buisiness and that your uncle was in the merchants guild going to make it so you cant go on the deep roads expedition in act 1, you cant stop the Arishok in act 2 and cant fight both the crazy mages and the evil templars in act 3.

Because that's a different part of the plot.

[ianvillan]

AlexJK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves have moved out of the Alienage. Rampant racism tends to lead to humans burning down their homes. I assume humans might try the same with an elven protagonist who tried to move to Hightown, which could become part of the narrative.

So now we've written a whole new start to act 2 - what got cut to include that?

There was also a human noble in Origins. I think the point is, why couldn't there have been an elven or dwarven protagonist, when the overall story would basically be the same? Family escapes the Blight to get to nearby city-state of Kirkwall, the protagonist makes money to fund expedition into the Deep Roads, protagonist becomes wealthy, protagonist is sought out by Arishok, and protagonist ends Qunari occupation of Kirkwall. None of those story elements demand a human noble.

No, they don't, but you've cut out all the elements that did. So do you propose that the whole game is correspondingly shorter, or do we need to reinstate all that cut material but in three times the quantity so it works for all three races?

What part of the story needs you to be a Human noble for it to work. The noble part was really just a new house you were a noble in name only. A Dwarf or Elf could of brought a new house with the money from the deep roads expedition.

The Arishok was not concerned that you was a noble it was that he thought you were honerable. You get the champion title because you defeted the Arishok not because you are noble. You get involved with the mage/templar conflict because you are the champion not because you are noble.

[AlexanderCousland]

In Exile wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
It could easily of been that your family had a buisiness in ferelden that was distroyed by the blight and you lost everything, but you happen to have an uncle in the Kirkwall merchants guild, so of you set for Kirkwall to just like Human Hawke and you would be more justified going there then Human Hawke taking a mage into a known hardcore templar city.

That would be a different story. I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm just saying the justification of "it couldn't work with the story they told" is true.

I think the example being given is to show how another race could have been included with minor tweaks, yes a different story, but i see no reason why it couldnt work along the lines of the existing one, care to explain? 

[ianvillan]

FreshIstay wrote...

In Exile wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
It could easily of been that your family had a buisiness in ferelden that was distroyed by the blight and you lost everything, but you happen to have an uncle in the Kirkwall merchants guild, so of you set for Kirkwall to just like Human Hawke and you would be more justified going there then Human Hawke taking a mage into a known hardcore templar city.

That would be a different story. I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm just saying the justification of "it couldn't work with the story they told" is true.

I think the example being given is to show how another race could have been included with minor tweaks, yes a different story, but i see no reason why it couldnt work along the lines of the existing one, care to explain? 

Exactly this, the devs and some fans were going on about how the story would be impossible to tell if Hawke was not a Human, but as has been pointed out the story could of been told even if you were an Elf or Dwarf.

[Wulfram]

Obviously having a different race protagonist would change the story a bit.  Not much, but a bit. That's... kind of the point of having different race options, isn't it? And it would require resources be spent on it, of course.

But what I can't see how the same sort of issues wouldn't apply to basically every Dragon Age game that's likely to be created. Unless they go back to the "you're a mysterious stranger" style background, which I'd like but I can't see happening.

So I can kind of accept a "race options aren't worth doing" argument, even if I disagree, but I can't see the argument that they specifically didn't fit the story of DA2.

(If the argument was put in straightforward "we only had 11 months" terms, I'd accept that of course)

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:15 .

[In Exile]

FreshIstay wrote...
I think the example being given is to show how another race could have been included with minor tweaks, yes a different story, but i see no reason why it couldnt work along the lines of the existing one, care to explain? 

I did. I pointed out some of the core elements Bioware would have to change in Hawke's personal story. I'm not defending Bioware's choice to do this, or their justification that it was about the story - but they're right that the story they told, about Hawke, works only for a human (and arguably could have worked for an elf if they only removed the Amell portion, which is to say invented an entirely new link to Kirkwall). 

But these are different kinds of narratives.

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...
Exactly this, the devs and some fans were going on about how the story would be impossible to tell if Hawke was not a Human, but as has been pointed out the story could of been told even if you were an Elf or Dwarf.

A story could have been told, with the main plot unchaged. But that's not the same thing as the story.

Wulfram wrote...

Obviously having a different race
protagonist would change the story a bit.  Not much, but a bit.
That's... kind of the point of having different race options, isn't it?
And it would require resources be spent on it, of course.

Well, yes. But people are denying that. Bioware said they wanted to make Hawke human for the sake of the story they wanted to tell - and that's not a lie. To make a story for a non-human, there would have to be more branching content.

And presumably, more crappy reactivity like in both games. But most fans seem fine with that unless they're criticism DA2 specifically, so who knows if that's really an issue?

So I can kind of accept a "race options aren't worth doing"
argument, even if I disagree, but I can't see the argument that they
specifically didn't fit the story of DA2.

Why not? You just admited they would have to change the story to fit in a new race. They would have to add content. And they ostensibly didn't want to add that content, or tell a parallel story for an elf or dwarf.

I'm not sure I can understand what's so confusing about this.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

(If the argument was put in straightforward "we only had 11 months" terms, I'd accept that of course)

I'm not genuinely sure how much they're even allowed to talk about how rushed they were.  

I mean, think about it, it's effectively blaming the publisher.  

...and their publisher is also their employer.  So yeah.  

My source was a former BioWare developer's personal blog, which has since been taken down.  His words were, paraphrased, that DA2 had a very accelerated development window of 10 months.  But I can't link to it anymore, so you're forced to take my word for it, or not believe me at all.  It's up to you.

But if we take it as a point of assumption, quite a bit about Dragon Age 2's limitations - not controversial design decisions, but limitations - begin to make a kind of sense.  Like being limited to a mostly-static Kirkwall, and a narrowly told, personal story, complete with timeskips.  And of course, the repeated environments.  

Though DA:I will use a human protagonist and isnt, as far as we know, being rushed, we can assume that it probably won't work the same as Hawke.  But beyond that?  I'm not sure what we can assume.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:22 .