3855 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

In Exile wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
I think the example being given is to show how another race could have been included with minor tweaks, yes a different story, but i see no reason why it couldnt work along the lines of the existing one, care to explain? 

I did. I pointed out some of the core elements Bioware would have to change in Hawke's personal story. I'm not defending Bioware's choice to do this, or their justification that it was about the story - but they're right that the story they told, about Hawke, works only for a human (and arguably could have worked for an elf if they only removed the Amell portion, which is to say invented an entirely new link to Kirkwall). 

But these are different kinds of narratives.

This is what I am argueing about as well, If Bioware are not including race choice because of short development time and less funds, then say this not say how the story would only work for Human only or how 80% of players were Human.


I think a minority of the problems I had with DA2 were design choices by Bioware but the majority of the the complaints that most fans had was down to the extremely short development time.

[AlexanderCousland]

ianvillan wrote...


Exactly this, the devs and some fans were going on about how the story would be impossible to tell if Hawke was not a Human, but as has been pointed out the story could of been told even if you were an Elf or Dwarf.

Boggles the mind.

Carver/Bethany could have easily had the same effect on you if they werent your siblings, with Leandra showing up and asking you to pick one of them, "dont take both my babies please!"

Leandra' s death could have been an companion quest, with Bartrand & Varric your siblings the Idol fiasco could have been your personal hoopla/drama we are supposed to need.

IF your an elf, Merril could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing wth the eluvian.

And Everyone could have fled Fereldan cause of the blight, we dont actually see lothering afterall.

as for Legacy, just make the story that the key is susceptible to 3 bloodlines who all took part in sealing the prison, have Janeka & Carta react to whichever bloodline it may be, "Thetras blood, Hawke blood!!! etc etc. no big deal. 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:29 .

[In Exile]

FreshIstay wrote...
Boggles the mind.

Carver/Bethany could have easily had the same effect on you if they werent your siblings, with Leandra showing up and asking you to pick one of them, "dont take both my babies please!"

Leandra' s death could have been an companion quest, with Bartrand & Varric your siblings the Idol fiasco could have been your personal hoopla/drama we are supposed to need.

IF your an elf, Merril could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing wth the eluvian.

And Everyone could have fled Fereldan cause of the blight, we dont actually see lothering afterall.

as for Legacy, just make the story that the key is susceptible to 3 bloodlines who all took part in sealing the prison, have Janeka & Carta react to whichever bloodline it may be, "Thetras blood, Hawke blood!!! etc etc. no big deal.

So... we could have the same story, except for the parts of the story that you need to change to accomodate the different races? We're talking in circles and wasting each other's time at this point.

[LobselVith8]

FreshIstay wrote...

IF your an elf, Merrill could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing with the eluvian.

I think it would've been interesting to see how a City Elf protagonist interacted with Marethari and the rest of her clan, including Merrill. The contrast between cultures. Their differing view on the fall of the Dales, Arlathan, how their respective people are viewed, and the racism they would endure by ignorant humans.

[ianvillan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

IF your an elf, Merrill could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing with the eluvian.

I think it would've been interesting to see how a City Elf protagonist interacted with Marethari and the rest of her clan, including Merrill. The contrast between cultures. Their differing view on the fall of the Dales, Arlathan, how their respective people are viewed, and the racism they would endure by ignorant humans.

It would of also been interesting seeing how Kirwall would react to an Elf saving the city and being named champion.

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think it would've been interesting to see how a City Elf protagonist interacted with Marethari and the rest of her clan, including Merrill.

Would've?

Fenris was exactly that.  

It was the only part of his character I thoroughly enjoyed.

In summary:  He held the Dalish in dismissive contempt, and thought Merrill was profoundly foolish as well as dangerous.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .

[Allan Schumacher]

This is what I am argueing about as well, If Bioware are not including race choice because of short development time and less funds, then say this not say how the story would only work for Human only or how 80% of players were Human.

It's implicitly always the case. With more time and more money, we add more things. Always.

The problem with saying "due to development time" people then assume "then the game isn't being given as much time."


As Mark Darrah said in the wake of Baldur's Gate 2: "Give me a game with infinite resources, and I'll show you a game that never ships." Because we'll always add more stuff if we have more time and money.

So let this be confirmation that you're right, we aren't doing multiple races because we're choosing to spend our finite resources in another way. Since we're only making the game for a single race, it does allow us to cater the story to said race. In this case, the race we chose was human. Some may not like that, but this is the situation where seeing how people choose their races is valuable.

We don't go "Well, only 2% of people play Dwarves. We should just cut dwarves. In fact, most people only play human, so we should cut the others." We go "Okay, we've decided to keep things to one race? Which one should we choose?"

IF your an elf, Merril could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing wth the eluvian.

Once you start doing this, then you've started to add more content. Which is fine, you as a game player want more content. But simply going "well if you're an elf, then make Merrill your sister." It's not the same as just allowing the story to exist, as is, but with elves. It requires more work than just creating an elf character model and some GUI screens that let you play as an elf.

[AlexanderCousland]

In Exile wrote...

So... we could have the same story, except for the parts of the story that you need to change to accomodate the different races? We're talking in circles and wasting each other's time at this point.

 

Yes, the plot could have played out almost identical, an expedition, a Qunari battle, Anders blowing the Chantry. 

The excuse that it only works for humans is kinda.....well, wack. I can see that and I exclusively play as human in Origins. 

[LobselVith8]

ianvillan wrote...

It would of also been interesting to see how Kirkwall would react to an Elf saving the city and being named champion.

Yeah, that would have been interesting to see; I like the idea of an elven hero smashing down the racist concepts of elves by saving the city from the Qunari, especially among the elves of the Alienage (since the City Elf Origin made it seem like the elves weren't taught about any elven heroes, like Shartan or Garahel).

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Would've?

Yes, and Fenris is a former slave of Tevinter with amnesia, which is a little different than having an elven protagonist from the Alienage leave Ferelden in an exodus to Kirkwall. I think a constructive exchange of ideas and values would have been interesting to see between an elven protagonist and Merrill, as I find her intelligent and interesting.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 janvier 2013 - 09:54 .

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is what I am argueing about as well, If Bioware are not including race choice because of short development time and less funds, then say this not say how the story would only work for Human only or how 80% of players were Human.

It's implicitly always the case. With more time and more money, we add more things. Always.

The problem with saying "due to development time" people then assume "then the game isn't being given as much time."


As Mark Darrah said in the wake of Baldur's Gate 2: "Give me a game with infinite resources, and I'll show you a game that never ships." Because we'll always add more stuff if we have more time and money.

So let this be confirmation that you're right, we aren't doing multiple races because we're choosing to spend our finite resources in another way. Since we're only making the game for a single race, it does allow us to cater the story to said race. In this case, the race we chose was human. Some may not like that, but this is the situation where seeing how people choose their races is valuable.

We don't go "Well, only 2% of people play Dwarves. We should just cut dwarves. In fact, most people only play human, so we should cut the others." We go "Okay, we've decided to keep things to one race? Which one should we choose?"

IF your an elf, Merril could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing wth the eluvian.

Once you start doing this, then you've started to add more content. Which is fine, you as a game player want more content. But simply going "well if you're an elf, then make Merrill your sister." It's not the same as just allowing the story to exist, as is, but with elves. It requires more work than just creating an elf character model and some GUI screens that let you play as an elf.

Thankyou for your reply and I do understand Biowares position. I dont want to start an arguement with you, but some devs did say that Bioware went Human only because of the feedback data you recieved, yet fans showed a interview where it showed that Hawke was decided on being Human before Origins was released.

[AlexanderCousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

IF your an elf, Merril could be your sis, and her plight and plot could be yours together, the whole Maerithari thing wth the eluvian.

Once you start doing this, then you've started to add more content. Which is fine, you as a game player want more content. But simply going "well if you're an elf, then make Merrill your sister." It's not the same as just allowing the story to exist, as is, but with elves. It requires more work than just creating an elf character model and some GUI screens that let you play as an elf.

Im aware of that. (content/cost/implementation)

What we are saying though, Allan, is that the key points of the game (end of act 1,2,3) do not require that you should be exclusively Human in order to experience them.  That' s all we are really saying, the game could have played out nearly indetical, with different races.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So let this be confirmation that you're right, we aren't doing multiple races because we're choosing to spend our finite resources in another way.

So why would this change in future games?  What part of the logic that says that it's not worth spending the  DA2 and DA:I wouldn't apply to any Dragon Age game?

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 janvier 2013 - 10:00 .

[Addai]

krul2k wrote...
EDIT: origins wouldve been a hell of a lot better game if the development time spent in the dwarf,elf  an city elf origins was spent on VO an a Human PC for the cousland story an mage origins

Bleccch.

[In Exile]

FreshIstay wrote...
Yes, the plot could have played out almost identical, an expedition, a Qunari battle, Anders blowing the Chantry. 

The excuse that it only works for humans is kinda.....well, wack. I can see that and I exclusively play as human in Origins. 

The plot isn't the story.

[Commander Kurt]

ianvillan wrote


Thankyou for your reply and I do understand Biowares position. I dont want to start an arguement with you, but some devs did say that Bioware went Human only because of the feedback data you recieved, yet fans showed a interview where it showed that Hawke was decided on being Human before Origins was released.

Isn't that really early to have something be decided though? I dunno, it'll be interesting to hear if Allan has heard of this and can answer (although I liked Hawke just fine).

Do you have any links to the statements and/or interview? I'm not doubting you, just curious about the exact wording.

[Primed58]

Race is important but not a deal breaker. Choices based on history, character specializations, the ability to keep changing your appearance (really liked the black emporium in DAII), much like one does in real life, changing gear, etc. I am either an elf or a human but I know several folks who love playing the dwarf and pairing with Varric would have been interesting. Choices, give us the ability to choose, to love our characters as well as the ones around us the you create to compliment the story and ourselves, to be unique is totally awesome. Thank you for asking.

[ianvillan]

Commander Kurt wrote...

ianvillan wrote


Thankyou for your reply and I do understand Biowares position. I dont want to start an arguement with you, but some devs did say that Bioware went Human only because of the feedback data you recieved, yet fans showed a interview where it showed that Hawke was decided on being Human before Origins was released.

Isn't that really early to have something be decided though? I dunno, it'll be interesting to hear if Allan has heard of this and can answer (although I liked Hawke just fine).

Do you have any links to the statements and/or interview? I'm not doubting you, just curious about the exact wording.

It was shown here in this interview how Hawke and dialogue wheel etc were decided on before Origins was released.

[AlexanderCousland]

In Exile wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
Yes, the plot could have played out almost identical, an expedition, a Qunari battle, Anders blowing the Chantry. 

The excuse that it only works for humans is kinda.....well, wack. I can see that and I exclusively play as human in Origins. 

The plot isn't the story.

Technicalities aside, you are well aware of what Im saying and I have no desire to discuss this matter with you any further if we are going down this path.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 11 janvier 2013 - 10:35 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Wulfram wrote...

So why would this change in future games?  What part of the logic that says that it's not worth spending the  DA2 and DA:I wouldn't apply to any Dragon Age game?

Because it still depends on what type of game we want to deliver.

You're right, there's no guarantee that we don't decide the same thing with future DA games (or other games in general).

There are very much tech reasons for not doing so since we're transitioning to a whole new engine and a lot of the uncertainties that come with that.  In some regards, we hedged our bets and went conservative.  DA2 was the opposite, where we were too ambitious in the scope of what we wanted to do and the timeframe we had to do it in.  I think this contributes a lot to the faults of DA2.

[Wulfram]

I appreciate the explanations

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So why would this change in future games?  What part of the logic that says that it's not worth spending the  DA2 and DA:I wouldn't apply to any Dragon Age game?

Because it still depends on what type of game we want to deliver.

You're right, there's no guarantee that we don't decide the same thing with future DA games (or other games in general).

There are very much tech reasons for not doing so since we're transitioning to a whole new engine and a lot of the uncertainties that come with that.  In some regards, we hedged our bets and went conservative.  DA2 was the opposite, where we were too ambitious in the scope of what we wanted to do and the timeframe we had to do it in.  I think this contributes a lot to the faults of DA2.

I would like to say that even if I never liked some of the directions you were taking the series I could see where you were going and if you had more time I do believe Bioware could of made an outstanding game, I dont know if I would of liked it as much as Origins but I would like to think I would of liked it for what it was.

[Paul Sedgmore]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So why would this change in future games?  What part of the logic that says that it's not worth spending the  DA2 and DA:I wouldn't apply to any Dragon Age game?

Because it still depends on what type of game we want to deliver.

You're right, there's no guarantee that we don't decide the same thing with future DA games (or other games in general).

There are very much tech reasons for not doing so since we're transitioning to a whole new engine and a lot of the uncertainties that come with that.  In some regards, we hedged our bets and went conservative.  DA2 was the opposite, where we were too ambitious in the scope of what we wanted to do and the timeframe we had to do it in.  I think this contributes a lot to the faults of DA2.

I have to agree with the bolded part of your post, to be honest I was impressed at what the DA team managed to do with DA2 considering the technical changes and the time frame it was developed in