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Dragon Age 3 to use a human protagonist


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#301
upsettingshorts

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Rawgrim wrote...

You are right, of course. BUT this is a roleplaying game. The player character is the most important bit in an rpg. When bioware adds stiff restrictions like this, it makes the game turn into an interactive movie instead, wth the player being told a story and dragged along by it, instead of making it evolve around him due to the actions and choices he makes.


But you're talking about a kind of choice, not any choice.

If we lose human-elf-dwarf, for example, but make up for it with human 1-human 2-human 3, we haven't lost any amount of variety, we've lost a type of variety.  I'm not talking about DA2's personality tracking, either.

We don't know enough about DA3 at this stage to know if truly distinct, game-changing options exist for our protagonist.  We only know they're gonna be human, so right now sure we're -2 in the choice department, especially since we can't know what to expect out of Backgrounds.  But it's early.

That said, I consider every BioWare game ever made to be an "interactive movie" and that's how I've always played them.  So, yeah.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:12 .


#302
Satyricon331

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If Bioware had put more effort into creating more interesting human societies, I might be more receptive to giving a human-only protagonist a second chance.  But it didn't work the first time for me, and these "generic medieval kingdoms ## 214 and 943" just don't interest me that much, and their religious organization is uninteresting to me apart from its matriarchal aspect, and the Templars are uninteresting to me.  The Circles are fine in that regard, but Circle mages don't need to be human.

So to that extent, the lack of racial selection is implying a story I'll probably dislike, but I'm only half-joking when I say that human ears are plainly ugly.  That ridged nonsense?  Those dangling flesh-lumps at the bottom?  No.

I'm trying to think of things that could salvage my interest in this game... a drastically revamped combat system, maybe?  Closer to DAO and (just to depart utterly from reality a bit), BG2?  That's not likely to happen.  I just feel really detached from DA3 and Bioware at this point.

#303
Shevy

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Rawgrim wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I can not say what i think as i don't understand what mr. Schumacher means by only human.

Will playing a human have more than one option or will it be one story whatever you select? if only one story with just text story differences then it does not really matter what we play us.


Your protagonist will be human, but he/she is going to have different backgrounds in a non-playable way. How those backgrounds will look like is only speculation from the fans.


Shep could have different background too. None of wich mattered at all, apart from a bit of text in the bio.


I never played a ME game, but I heard it.

However, I don't see how someone can draw a conclusion of this towards the DA III backgrounds. We only know they are non-playable. How they look like and how they influence the game, we can only speculate. So ranting about them now isn't that clever.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:15 .


#304
WhiteThunder

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You are right, of course. BUT this is a roleplaying game. The player character is the most important bit in an rpg. When bioware adds stiff restrictions like this, it makes the game turn into an interactive movie instead, wth the player being told a story and dragged along by it, instead of making it evolve around him due to the actions and choices he makes.


But you're talking about a kind of choice, not any choice.

If we lose human-elf-dwarf, for example, but make up for it with human 1-human 2-human 3, we haven't lost any amount of variety, we've lost a type of variety.  I'm not talking about DA2's personality tracking, either.

We don't know enough about DA3 at this stage to know if truly distinct, game-changing options exist for our protagonist.  We only know they're gonna be human, so right now sure we're -2 in the choice department, especially since we can't know what to expect out of Backgrounds.  But it's early.

That said, I consider every BioWare game ever made to be an "interactive movie" and that's how I've always played them.  So, yeah.


But they're not replacing human-elf-dwarf with human1-human2-human3.
 
They're replacing human1-human2-elf1-elf2-elf3-dwarf1-dwarf2 with human1-human2-human3

#305
Rawgrim

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[quote]Rawgrim wrote...



Shep could have different background too. None of wich mattered at all, apart from a bit of text in the bio.

[/quote]

I never played a ME game, but I heard it.

However, I don't see how someone can draw a conclusion of this towards the DA III backgrounds. We only know they are non-playable. How they look and how they influence the game, we can only speculate. So ranting about them know isn't that clever.

[/quote]

Wasn`t ranting, i was making a point by pointing out an example. And yes, nobody can know for sure. BUT there has been an ongoing trend in the Bioware games after DA:O, that more and more choices gets removed. Games become more and more like action games, with 1-2 rpg aspects in them.

#306
upsettingshorts

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WhiteThunder wrote...

But they're not replacing human-elf-dwarf with human1-human2-human3.
 
They're replacing human1-human2-elf1-elf2-elf3-dwarf1-dwarf2 with human1-human2-human3


If you're saying that it's more complicated than that, I agree.

Beyond that we don't know what they're doing other than elf and dwarf won't be part of the "Choice math."

#307
Hatchetman77

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Western RPG's are all about replayability for me. I think I clocked in about 10 alts in DA:O, each with completly different personalities that I roleplayed during each character's game. I love creating characters and I hate being handed a character I have to play. I'll reserve judgement until I hear more facts but this reveal alone makes me think I may end up giving DA:I a pass.

#308
Wolfspawn

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I'm disappointed. I was hoping to play a dwarf, because it's the only race I haven't played in the series. But I guess I'll settle for a human. I'm cool with it.
I'll still be an archer, though.

#309
Rawgrim

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

But they're not replacing human-elf-dwarf with human1-human2-human3.
 
They're replacing human1-human2-elf1-elf2-elf3-dwarf1-dwarf2 with human1-human2-human3


If you're saying that it's more complicated than that, I agree.

Beyond that we don't know what they're doing other than elf and dwarf won't be part of the "Choice math."


We could play as 75 percent of the races, now we can play as 25 percent of the races.

#310
heyakate

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Rawgrim wrote...

You are right, of course. BUT this is a roleplaying game. The player character is the most important bit in an rpg. When bioware adds stiff restrictions like this, it makes the game turn into an interactive movie instead, wth the player being told a story and dragged along by it, instead of making it evolve around him due to the actions and choices he makes.


Having a set in stone race for the protagonist doesn't make the game any less of an RPG. You need a basic storyline and plot which your actions can shape. To be able to do different races correctly, the storyline would have to massively differ between races in order to make the game lore abiding. Variables are always good and are what make a good RPG, but with different races there would be too many variables for there to be one good, solid plot which gave you choice AND made sense at the same time. With different races and one plot there's always the instance of being in a situation that wouldn't really make sense for some of the races and thus breaks the immersion. I'd rather just avoid that possibility altogether and have a solely human protagonist.

#311
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WhiteThunder wrote...


But they're not replacing human-elf-dwarf with human1-human2-human3.
 
They're replacing human1-human2-elf1-elf2-elf3-dwarf1-dwarf2 with human1-human2-human3


We don't know that yet. I'd expect a minimum of two different backgrounds for a mage PC, since otherwise a player on that class will not have the option to choose his/her background (it's not even hard to think about the two differen backgrounds: apostate and (former ) Circle mage).

#312
upsettingshorts

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Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

But they're not replacing human-elf-dwarf with human1-human2-human3.
 
They're replacing human1-human2-elf1-elf2-elf3-dwarf1-dwarf2 with human1-human2-human3


If you're saying that it's more complicated than that, I agree.

Beyond that we don't know what they're doing other than elf and dwarf won't be part of the "Choice math."


We could play as 75 percent of the races, now we can play as 25 percent of the races.


You're not telling me anything I don't already know, or haven't already acknowledged.

All I'm saying is that the strict number of opportunities to shape your character isn't something we know at this point, and race isn't the only way to do that.

#313
Fast Jimmy

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You are right, of course. BUT this is a roleplaying game. The player character is the most important bit in an rpg. When bioware adds stiff restrictions like this, it makes the game turn into an interactive movie instead, wth the player being told a story and dragged along by it, instead of making it evolve around him due to the actions and choices he makes.


But you're talking about a kind of choice, not any choice.

If we lose human-elf-dwarf, for example, but make up for it with human 1-human 2-human 3, we haven't lost any amount of variety, we've lost a type of variety.  I'm not talking about DA2's personality tracking, either.

We don't know enough about DA3 at this stage to know if truly distinct, game-changing options exist for our protagonist.  We only know they're gonna be human, so right now sure we're -2 in the choice department, especially since we can't know what to expect out of Backgrounds.  But it's early.

That said, I consider every BioWare game ever made to be an "interactive movie" and that's how I've always played them.  So, yeah.


Bolded for emphasis, since that's what I'm basically going to be talking solely about.

People can't change the way they play video games, I don't think. Or, if they can, they have to be taught how. Just like watching movies or reading books or listening to music - there are habits and behaviors that govern how different people digest these types of media.

The approach DA:O did was give a really good story in a format that many different playstyles could like. It may not have been perfect, but it at least accomodated different playstyles - whether you viewed the characters as totally controlled by you, or if you just were along for the ride - different people could play the same game and have (relatively) the same level of enjoyment.

DA2 leaned more towards one style of playing (interactive movie/action-driven combat) in its design than others and many people did not like it (although many people did). People say it is difficult, or even impossible, to play with other playstyles. 

Many of the fans viewed DA:O as the "true" DA game. Yet the more information we get it about DA3 seems that DA2 was the "true" DA game, at least for setting gameplay and design preferences. And if they are going to do that (which is totally their preogative) then they need to anticipate people giving up on a DA:O2 game and leaving, or they need to try and teach players how to play video games in a style that does not come naturally to them.

And the way to do this is not to just put it in a game and say "take it or leave it" BTW. Because many people will just say "leave it" and shrink the fanbase.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:20 .


#314
Rawgrim

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heyakate wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You are right, of course. BUT this is a roleplaying game. The player character is the most important bit in an rpg. When bioware adds stiff restrictions like this, it makes the game turn into an interactive movie instead, wth the player being told a story and dragged along by it, instead of making it evolve around him due to the actions and choices he makes.


Having a set in stone race for the protagonist doesn't make the game any less of an RPG. You need a basic storyline and plot which your actions can shape. To be able to do different races correctly, the storyline would have to massively differ between races in order to make the game lore abiding. Variables are always good and are what make a good RPG, but with different races there would be too many variables for there to be one good, solid plot which gave you choice AND made sense at the same time. With different races and one plot there's always the instance of being in a situation that wouldn't really make sense for some of the races and thus breaks the immersion. I'd rather just avoid that possibility altogether and have a solely human protagonist.


and yet it works like a charm in every game that lets you pick your race. Odd that.

Your human character is also an andrastian (confirmed). meaning you don`t even get to pick your characters beliefs.

#315
Guest_greengoron89_*

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A pity. Everyone knows dwarves are the master race.

#316
Shevy

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Rawgrim wrote...

Wasn`t ranting, i was making a point by pointing out an example. And yes, nobody can know for sure. BUT there has been an ongoing trend in the Bioware games after DA:O, that more and more choices gets removed. Games become more and more like action games, with 1-2 rpg aspects in them.


I'm not a fan of the "new direction" they introduced in DA II, too. To be polite. And I have high doubts that DA III will be as amazing as Origins was, but we should be fair and only rant about things which are confirmed and not put them words in their mouths.

Not saying you're ranting right now, but it's something I don't like about the BSN in general.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:22 .


#317
daffl5

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i was a little surprised and disappointed. having race choice in DAO gave it more life and depth in the story. proving that no matter you origin you could beat the darkspawn. but with only a human protag i fear the story is severely limited

Modifié par daffl5, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .


#318
upsettingshorts

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@Fast Jimmy

I've spoken on this at length before, and broadly I agree with your observations but not your conclusion. Here's an old post, it's kinda off topic for here though.

The short version is basically that now that I have a game that caters to my playstyle, why would I want to go back to simply having mine accomodated alongside others in what I consider a sort of clumsy hybrid? 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:27 .


#319
daffl5

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daffl5 wrote...

i was a little surprised and disappointed. having race choice in DAO gave it more life and depth in the story. proving that no matter you origin you could beat the darkspawn. but with only a human protag i fear the story is severely limited



#320
Palipride47

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Rawgrim wrote...

Your human character is also an andrastian (confirmed). meaning you don`t even get to pick your characters beliefs.


Really? REALLY?! *sigh*

You may not able to be Qunari, but you can "believe" differently than Pro-Chantry, Pro-Templars, even as an Andrastian.

Just like anyone in RL who follows any religion. 

Even if this was confirmed. Where is this "confirmation" coming from? Human = Andrastian? 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

@Fast Jimmy

I've spoken on this at length before, and broadly I agree with your observations but not your conclusion. Here's an old post, it's kinda off topic for here though.

The short version is basically that now that I have a game that caters to my playstyle, why would I want to go back to simply having mine accomodated alongside others in what I consider a sort of clumsy hybrid?


I will diagree on the bolded point, in that it may be your play style, but not mine. If they can smush them together nicely (which I think DAO does) then, sure, I'm 100% for it. 

If they can't, then I will relegate it to whatever they chose (and if I can't enjoy it with my more "old-school immersion" style, I'll stop).

Modifié par Palipride47, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:32 .


#321
Rawgrim

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Palipride47 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Your human character is also an andrastian (confirmed). meaning you don`t even get to pick your characters beliefs.


Really? REALLY?! *sigh*

You may not able to be Qunari, but you can "believe" differently than Pro-Chantry, Pro-Templars, even as an Andrastian.

Just like anyone in RL who follows any religion. 


Yes. But if you play as a catholic, you can`t have your character be a hindu, budhist, muslim, or an atheist.

#322
heyakate

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Rawgrim wrote...

and yet it works like a charm in every game that lets you pick your race. Odd that.

Your human character is also an andrastian (confirmed). meaning you don`t even get to pick your characters beliefs.


I'm not belittiling Origins by saying this, I think it's a brilliant game BUT even in that the difference between dialogue depending on your race (excluding your origin stories) was minimal. Apart from the odd "elf" or "dwarf" added onto the end of lines, there wasn't nearly enough diversity with how the Warden was treated depending on their race. I don't think it would really be possible to expect that much from a game. Again, I'm not saying Origins was a bad game because of that, it's just my opinion.

Regarding the pc being an Andrastian, that's a different story altogether. If that's the case, and it's forced onto my pc, I'll be a little disappointed.

#323
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heyakate wrote...






Regarding the pc being an Andrastian, that's a different story altogether. If that's the case, and it's forced onto my pc, I'll be a little disappointed.


It already happened in DA2. Hawke was Andrastian.

Modifié par hhh89, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .


#324
Rawgrim

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heyakate wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

and yet it works like a charm in every game that lets you pick your race. Odd that.

Your human character is also an andrastian (confirmed). meaning you don`t even get to pick your characters beliefs.


I'm not belittiling Origins by saying this, I think it's a brilliant game BUT even in that the difference between dialogue depending on your race (excluding your origin stories) was minimal. Apart from the odd "elf" or "dwarf" added onto the end of lines, there wasn't nearly enough diversity with how the Warden was treated depending on their race. I don't think it would really be possible to expect that much from a game. Again, I'm not saying Origins was a bad game because of that, it's just my opinion.

Regarding the pc being an Andrastian, that's a different story altogether. If that's the case, and it's forced onto my pc, I'll be a little disappointed.


I see your point, surely. But in the dwarf noble origins, it has alot more than just a few dialogue lines involved. Lots about it when you return to Orzammar, and you even meet people from you old life around in Ferelden. Not sure about the city elf. Don`t think I ever played as one of those.

#325
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John Epler wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Only Human, but with playable backgrounds would be a good way.


The backgrounds are not playable per interview with David Gaider.  It'll be a la Mass Effect short paragraphs to choose from.


They're not playable, but we've said nothing beyond that they will be of some significance. Please don't put words in our mouths.


Can we put cookies in your mouth? Or perhaps some home made brownies?? :o:D