3855 réponses à ce sujet

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

I agree so much, but we seem to be in the minority. I personally think that since people are divided on race or no, it would be better to give the option so those who want it can be happy and those who don't can fall back on their default human with no skin off their teeth. But alas...

Unfortunately, just having any origin seems to be so different from what DA:I proposes to do. I'm truthfully very skeptical of their claims to want to make a compromise between DA:O and DA2. I honestly think they just want to make DA2.5, which is in turn a clone of ME2. In ME, players had multiple text-based origins, but ultimately the PC was a voice-acted human named Shepard. In DA:I, we will have multiple text-based origins, but ultimately the PC will be a voice-acted human just like Hawke.

They claim the origins will have more impact, but the entire set-up still reeks of ME and DA2, which is a completely different genre and role-play style from DA:O (read: minimum role-playing). As long as the franchise moves away from its DA:O roots (which in turn was rooted in the traditional role-playing soil of BG, NWN, and others), then I don't think it's quite a positive sign for future DA games or especially the return of CC choices such as race.

You're right, time will tell how everything is implemented in Inquisition.  It's not a perfect solution for everyone.  I wish it were a situation where everyone could get exactly what they're looking for out of the experience, but that is rarely if ever possible for so many reasons, as we know.  I'm encouraged at least that the protagonist's persona appears to be much less fixed than in DA2, perhaps not even the same person at all depending on the background..?  IMO that is a step back in the right direction. 

Faerunner wrote...

I agree with this so much. I keep saying it over the forums, but strolling boldly into a room full of human nobles as a city elf who used to be a servant in their castles or a vagrant in their streets, but now standing above them as an equal or a superior who will, for the first time, stand up and speak while they have to shut up and listen... to me, there's no other feeling like it in the world. I wish BioWare would give us the opportunity to have another feeling like that, but alas...

I try to imagine what it would be like to complete Demands of the Qun as an elf. How amazing would it be to stand before the Arishok as one of the city elves he's been seducing away from the alienage for years? To stand up to him as one of the victims of the society's corruption but be still willing to defend it rather than a rich human noble who benefits from the status quo? How amazing would it be to duel the giant bull Arishok in single combat as a scrawny little dear elf and stand triumphant as David over Goliath? How incredible would it feel to be adulated by the humans of Kirkwall as their new Champion after risking everything to save them (even though you had less reason to do so than Hawke)? To me, that would have been the most amazing feeling in the world, right next to the City Elf walking boldly into the Landsmeet, but alas... BioWare did not give us that option.

The Landsmeet is a really powerful moment.  Not so much a "rise to power" concept, IMO, but a "rise to authority," or "respectability," perhaps..?  As someone who can't be ignored, Tabris can finally--if the player likes--be a mouthpiece for their people, something that they likely never imagined could happen.  Brosca being able to make sweeping changes in Orzammar has that power as well, I think.

I would have really liked to explore the Qun as an elf in DA2 as well   City elves seem to turn to it much more than other (disenfranchised) groups and I'm curious how this plays out throughout other alienages as well.  Is there a kind of factionalism growing within the city elf population?  It would have been a revolutionary moment as well to become Champion, and even viscount, as an elf or dwarf.  Giving Kirkwall a hero like that, in addition to the HoF, would have helped continue to break some stereotypes, I like to think

Modifié par WardenWade, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Faerunner wrote...

They claim the origins will have more impact, but the entire set-up still reeks of ME and DA2, which is a completely different genre and role-play style from DA:O (read: minimum role-playing). As long as the franchise moves away from its DA:O roots (which in turn was rooted in the traditional role-playing soil of BG, NWN, and others), then I don't think it's quite a positive sign for future DA games or especially the return of CC choices such as race.

I was going to write a longer post adressing some of your points but I'll settle for this for now. What do you mean with 'minimum roleplaying'?

[Heimdall]

NUM13ER wrote...

Direwolf0294 wrote...
I wonder if we'll ever see a DA title where the PC can only be an elf, or only be a dwarf etc.

 
I think this is a distinct possibility for future titles. It would be interesting to see the reaction to this, compared to the human only character. Would there be an outcry that humans weren't playable? Or is the fact each new title could become the opportunity to explore a race in greater detail (just imagine a Qunari PC) more appealing?

I rather doubt it myself.  First, there's that human characters are generally seen as the default with the attitude that you're either human or being human is an option.  Frankly some people have the view that the other races are just gimmicks that act just like humans anyway.  Its easier to draw in players unfamiliar with the franchise to something familiar like a human in a quasi-medieval setting.  Elf and Dwarf culture interests us as longtime fans, but the gaming community at large will see only that you have to play as a short character or a pointy eared one.

I suppose what I'm saying is that having a non-human protagonist is a much bigger gamble than a human one.

[Yumichika]

Personally i have created a dwarf when i was playing for the second time. Oghren makes me change my mind. It's useless creating a whole world with so many race if u can't be any of them. Dragon Age is first of all a role play. If u can choose a elves and completly change the face of history that would be great.

[Sporothrix]

Eelectrica wrote...

It's a shame that having a voiced protaganist means the playable character choices have been slashed and with it the amount of story telling.

Personally, I don't think that's the reason. For example, the voice of Fenris' actor IMO could fit anyone - elf as well as dwarf (and human of course). It's even easier with female characters. 
It's just a matter of cutting expenses and work. Next time they will probably cut off female playable characters.

Modifié par misoretu9, 29 janvier 2013 - 12:06 .

[duckley]

Seems to me the purpose of Dragon Age Origins was to explore, as the title suggest, different origins. If they make a game called Dragon Age Origins 2, then I would expect we would be able to choose our origins...make sense?

[Inanna Athanasia]

While I love playing an Elf in Origins and would of like to seen the return of the option, I am not to miffed on it. I really don't care who I play as as long as the story is solid. I would rather play a human with questions answered then an Elf and see none of them answered. So finding out what Morigan meant by her Mom being not really human, how the darkspawn were really made and most of all, what happen to my my child with Morigan and where she went, I can love playing a human.

side note, if the Elves look like they did in DA2, then I probably wouldn't play one anyway since I can barely stomach looking at them anyway.

Modifié par InannaAthanasia, 29 janvier 2013 - 01:20 .

[LobselVith8]

duckley wrote...

Seems to me the purpose of Dragon Age Origins was to explore, as the title suggest, different origins. If they make a game called Dragon Age Origins 2, then I would expect we would be able to choose our origins...make sense?

You realize the 'Origins' subtitle wasn't originally planned for the title Dragon Age? Also, Dragon Age II (and apparently Inquisition) bare little resemblence to what the first Dragon Age aimed for. The shift with the Dragon Age franchise is a lot like what happened to Ultima after the EA purchase.

Considering what the developers for Origins said about voiced and silent protagonists at the time Origins was being released, that's likely a factor as well in getting a 'human only' protagonist now.

[TheWarden51]

 I enjoyed the fact that the player was only able to be a human in DA2, but I don't want other people to be disappointed so I think it should be like it was in DAO

[duckley]

LobselVith8 wrote...

duckley wrote...

Seems to me the purpose of Dragon Age Origins was to explore, as the title suggest, different origins. If they make a game called Dragon Age Origins 2, then I would expect we would be able to choose our origins...make sense?

You realize the 'Origins' subtitle wasn't originally planned for the title Dragon Age? Also, Dragon Age II (and apparently Inquisition) bare little resemblence to what the first Dragon Age aimed for. The shift with the Dragon Age franchise is a lot like what happened to Ultima after the EA purchase.

Considering what the developers for Origins said about voiced and silent protagonists at the time Origins was being released, that's likely a factor as well in getting a 'human only' protagonist now.

No, I didnt realize Origins was not intended to be the subtitle. Interesting...
Not sure what t Dragon Age Origins was aiming for. For me DA2 (which I enjoyed, but not as much as DA) which I LOVED) continued a story about life in Thedas - this time the wacky world of Kirkwall. I have no doubt some of the changes were due to EA..
I do like the voice protagonist, and  don't mind playing a human, so I am OK if this the direction, but I have no doubt many fans would prefer to play as another race. I

[Paul E Dangerously]

misoretu9 wrote...
It's just a matter of cutting expenses and work. Next time they will probably cut off female playable characters.

But then who would the internet drastically overhype? (coughs and murmurs something about FemShep to clear his throat)

Anyway, onto the thread - I'm actually fine with a human protagonist when it makes sense.

While DAO actually gave you the racial choice, it didn't matter that much outside of the first hour and the "homecoming" segments, and I loved DAO to pieces.

Hell, Baldur's Gate, generally considered one of the best games in the genre? The only thing I can remember the racial choices doing (aside from mechanics) was restricting what romances your PC could get into. You could be anything and it had no bearing on the story whatsoever..and BG/BG2/TOB had a great story, with memorable NPCs and moments.

I'm fine with the DA3 protagonist being a human, but give me a strong story to work with. Let's take DA2, for example. I actually loved DA2 and I'm not afraid to admit it, but the last third of the story was weak at best, and forced your character into doing things (and being part of a thing) that having an elf/dwarf/human choice wouldn't have made any better. The fact DA3's protagonist is a human might cut a few roleplaying possibilities in the long run, but with all the feedback from DA2/ME3 about choice and storylines, it doesn't mean that Bioware can't give us a good story, NPCs, choices and moments just because the character is human.

tl;dr - I think it's kind of silly to worry about race when the more important things are out there. A strong story, memorable NPCs, and meaningful choices all take priority for me over "oh hey, I can play a dwarf or an elf instead". Besides, the only racial option I really want in a DA game is a Qunari, and that wouldn't really make sense for Inquisitor, would it? 

[zyntifox]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...
It's just a matter of cutting expenses and work. Next time they will probably cut off female playable characters.

But then who would the internet drastically overhype? (coughs and murmurs something about FemShep to clear his throat)

Anyway, onto the thread - I'm actually fine with a human protagonist when it makes sense.

While DAO actually gave you the racial choice, it didn't matter that much outside of the first hour and the "homecoming" segments, and I loved DAO to pieces.

Hell, Baldur's Gate, generally considered one of the best games in the genre? The only thing I can remember the racial choices doing (aside from mechanics) was restricting what romances your PC could get into. You could be anything and it had no bearing on the story whatsoever..and BG/BG2/TOB had a great story, with memorable NPCs and moments.

I'm fine with the DA3 protagonist being a human, but give me a strong story to work with. Let's take DA2, for example. I actually loved DA2 and I'm not afraid to admit it, but the last third of the story was weak at best, and forced your character into doing things (and being part of a thing) that having an elf/dwarf/human choice wouldn't have made any better. The fact DA3's protagonist is a human might cut a few roleplaying possibilities in the long run, but with all the feedback from DA2/ME3 about choice and storylines, it doesn't mean that Bioware can't give us a good story, NPCs, choices and moments just because the character is human.

tl;dr - I think it's kind of silly to worry about race when the more important things are out there. A strong story, memorable NPCs, and meaningful choices all take priority for me over "oh hey, I can play a dwarf or an elf instead". Besides, the only racial option I really want in a DA game is a Qunari, and that wouldn't really make sense for Inquisitor, would it? 

I can only speak for myself but i don't don't consider it important whether the game reacts differently to my PC regarding race or not. Is it a nice touch? Yeah it is and we got far more of that than i ever expected in DA:O. I want multiple races for roleplaying purposes.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Cstaf wrote...

I can only speak for myself but i don't don't consider it important whether the game reacts differently to my PC regarding race or not. Is it a nice touch? Yeah it is and we got far more of that than i ever expected in DA:O. I want multiple races for roleplaying purposes.

Agreed.

It just gives games a more FRPG feel IMO. If it's too much effort/money for BW to add all the differences in for race reaction then don't - apart from stat tweaks there's no gaming differences which couldn't be side-stepped by having NPCs react to the character themselves, as opposed to their race.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 29 janvier 2013 - 03:32 .

[In Exile]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
It just gives games a more FRPG feel IMO. If it's too much effort/money for BW to add all the differences in for race reaction then don't - apart from stat tweaks there's no gaming differences which couldn't be side-stepped by having NPCs react to the character themselves, as opposed to their race.

Except for the fact that the entire game world and lore makes a serious difference of how humans treat, at least, elves? Dwarves are in the OK, not so bad box, but elves are quite clearly a different culture entirely. 

The Dalish are a great example of this - how they treat a human PC and an elf PC should be different. 

[Stokie Stallion]

kinda glad really, i like playing has "myself" in games, i dont see my self short like a dwalf or skinny pointy ear'd has a elf, pro human!! unless i can bed another race... nothing wrong with aliens or elves then

[zyntifox]

Yes, i understand that there are many that wants to play a character that is an projection of themselves. But there is also a lot of people that likes to roleplay as anything but themselves. And while playing as another race is not necessary to be able to roleplay it does add an additional dimension to it.

But like i wrote a couple of pages back; since i can't roleplay with the dialogue system they want to stick with it really does not matter to me if the protagonist is human, elf or a blob. But if they one day return to a system i can roleplay in i would very much like the option of multiple races for the reason mentioned above.

[Yggdrasil]

I--like many posters here, apparently--would probably play a human anyway, although I enjoyed playing an elf in DA:O. 

However, as much as I enjoyed playing Hawke, I didn't feel quite the same attachment to my DAII character as I did to my DA:O one, and I think that's because so much of Hawke's history and story was fixed due to the nature of the narrative used in that game, not because Hawke had to be a human.  I guess I felt I could pour more of myself into my DA:O character and was thinking more along the lines of "What would I do?" here as opposed to "What would "Hawke?" do in DAII.

My point is that I think I would prefer having more ambiguity/flexibility in our characters' story even if we can't choose from among the races.

[Yggdrasil]

In Exile wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
It just gives games a more FRPG feel IMO. If it's too much effort/money for BW to add all the differences in for race reaction then don't - apart from stat tweaks there's no gaming differences which couldn't be side-stepped by having NPCs react to the character themselves, as opposed to their race.

Except for the fact that the entire game world and lore makes a serious difference of how humans treat, at least, elves? Dwarves are in the OK, not so bad box, but elves are quite clearly a different culture entirely. 

The Dalish are a great example of this - how they treat a human PC and an elf PC should be different. 

My personal theory is that the limitation to being a human is not because of time or other considerations but because the raison d'etre for the PC in the game would only make sense as a human.  The Grey Wardens took all shapes and sizes in their quest against the darkspawn, but the Inquisition is a human organization.  This is only a guess, however...

[Asdrubael Vect]

"but the Inquisition is a human organization"

and the Grey Wardens were founded and created by Tevinter blood mages from Anderfels, but they have elves Knight-Commanders
and Mage circle wefe founded by Chantry, but they have elves First Enchanters. 
even Tevinter slavers have elves slavers.
and Tevinter Empire have elves Magisters.

so what?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 29 janvier 2013 - 11:42 .

[Isolaede]

I’m torn – I expected this decision. From a story perspective, it seems like the Chantry is very human-centric. Elves and Dwarves both have their own religions, and with the exception of that crazy dwarven “priest” in Orzammer, I don’t remember ever seeing a non-human representative of the church. I’m assuming, the Inquisition, as a branch of the Chantry is the same.

What I will miss is the story elements that came along with the racial choices. The unique and individual “Origin” stories. Even though these story elements didn’t play a huge role in the way the story ended, your origin did impact the way people treated you and there were nods to your origin throughout – sometimes in companion dialogs (like Alister asking about your City Elf’s husband, or your noble referencing her parent’s passing), other times in happenstance meetings (like your Dalish running into her friend partially turned into a Darkspawn), or in unique dialog options with non-companions (like the dialog you get with Howe when you face him on your noble). All of these elements made the story more personal. I felt more invested in my character. Heck, I started the game on my noble and City elf feeling angry. I loathed the Howes on my noble, and I hated the way the elves were treated. I was determined to make things better for them. Knowing where my character came from, opened the door for more role playing. It think the origin choices also made the game highly replayable.

So I understand the decision to enforce a human racial choice, but I’d like to suggest you consider implementing an origin system for character’s back stories. Give them a chance to pick from a variety of human backgrounds, and then allow them to role play through a bit of their early lives, before joining the Inquisition.

Thank you for all of your hard work on this game!


Edit: I just noticed in some of the Bioware comments that there is no plan to allow characters to play through an origin. I apologize – I should have checked before I posted this.  So now I'm trying to think of other ways to bring out the same degree of emotional investment.  Perhaps just give them some text choices for backgrounds, and have that background come up in conversations at times?  It's not as powerful, but I did enjoy my "Sole Survivor" rep in Mass Effect. Or, even better, make the cookie cutter intro cinematic story more emotional, dramatic, and deep.  Allow the PC to make unique and varried choices within it that impact the game and are referenced later on. 

Modifié par Isolaede, 30 janvier 2013 - 12:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Faerunner wrote...

I think you hit the nail on the head with both points. I think though that Brosca does more in the long run than Tabris since most social reforms for the elves fall apart within several years, whereas the casteless receive lasting changes under Bhelen, but it was still nice while it lasted.

The DA:O epilogue undermining most city elf reforms was one of many reasons why I was hoping for race options for further games. I was hoping that more elven heroes could positively represent the elven race and influence positive changes for city elven culture. 

As you said, the city elf population is factioning, especially in the presence of the Qunari. City elves have put up with poverty and second-class citizenry for centuries to preserve their dying culture, but the last shreds of their culture are dissolving, as well as their reason to put up with it. Half of them seem to want desperately to keep holding on, while the other half want to just drop it and move on. Hence, in DA2, some city elves convert to the Qun for a better way of live, while others savagely rebuke them and accuse the Qunari of speeding up their cultural demise. Eventually, this subtle factioning is going to crack wide open (I'm guessing when the Qunari finally decide to reconquer Thedas), and I want to be in the middle of it as a fellow elf when it happens. Not glance briefly from the outside as a human who doesn't know or care about elven culture, or even bother to learn their names like Hawke and the "Elven Fanatics" from Blackpowder Courtesy and Demands of the Qun. 

I just want to be an elf, or dwarf, or kossith. I want to see the world from their eyes.

The Elven Warden as Bann is bugged, but it's supposed to read that Shianni as Bann gets killed by bigoted humans, Soris as Bann leaves because of racism (as a result of his marriage to a wealthy human woman), and the Warden as Bann allowed the elves to "become prosperous in a way they had never known", which lead to elves traveling to Denerim from all over; a riot by humans ensues as a result of the new elven residents to the Alienage.

That said, this is the kind of outcome that makes me lament the absence of racial options. I wondered a while ago if Merrill taking a stand against the templars would have an impact among the People - who have been enemies of the Order of Templars since their incursion into the Dales - but I doubt it'll matter (even though it should).

[andy6915]

I just hope Bioware does at least 1 game for every major race. Humans now have 2 games all to themselves with this one and DA3. Next DA seriously needs to allow only an elf or a dwarf with different origins for the character of that race like they've done with DA3 and making you have to be human but with different origins. Elves and dwarves don't deserve their own game after humans were worthy of 2 in a row? Bullocks.