3855 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I think you need to be a little more open minded.

Bracketing all elves, humans and dwarves into a locked POV or one agenda is silly - people have different motivations for working with different groups.

You suggested a limited POV by saying that the races could be united by a larger crisis. I'm sure there are groups who wouldn't give a damn about a Blight, no matter how it also affected their own people, think that the best thing for them is to hole up until it blows over, and that it is NOT necessary to associate with humans for self preservation. There are people whose fear or hatred overrides everything else. Also, Bioware has not really shown that these large groups, particularly the Dalish, have a desire to do what you suggested.

I didn't want to get into it in that previous posts, but unfortunately, I think using a similar gimmick to DAO to "unite" groups is just that: gimmicky and lame. I'd think that people who really want multiple PC races could come up with something better so we have a compelling story and multi-race.

[Sidney]

Pr3ying M4nt15 360 wrote...

I'd rather have a voice acted protagonist than a different race (which is basically a 5 minute backstory and a few minor dialog changes that ultimately take development time and disc space away from dialog that you could have reserved for a single protagonist)..

I'm still stunned people care this much about race selection. It doesn't matter. Even in games with it (BG1/2, NWN, DAO, TES - any of them) it was a non-issue because they had to craft as generic a story as possible and they couldn't account for each race in any meaningful way other than very rare piffle level dialog.

You look at all the good to great games that didn't have any race selection (KOTOR1/2, TW1/2, FO1/2/3/NV, JE) and you wonder what the heck all the fuss is about.

I still say I'd rather have an elf-only game than a human only game in the DA* world because there is a LOT you can do IF you can craft the story to that particular race but trying to create a story that works with all races means you get a story where that selection becomes meaningless.

[Yumichika]

Sidney wrote...

Pr3ying M4nt15 360 wrote...

I'd rather have a voice acted protagonist than a different race (which is basically a 5 minute backstory and a few minor dialog changes that ultimately take development time and disc space away from dialog that you could have reserved for a single protagonist)..

I'm still stunned people care this much about race selection. It doesn't matter. Even in games with it (BG1/2, NWN, DAO, TES - any of them) it was a non-issue because they had to craft as generic a story as possible and they couldn't account for each race in any meaningful way other than very rare piffle level dialog.

You look at all the good to great games that didn't have any race selection (KOTOR1/2, TW1/2, FO1/2/3/NV, JE) and you wonder what the heck all the fuss is about.

I still say I'd rather have an elf-only game than a human only game in the DA* world because there is a LOT you can do IF you can craft the story to that particular race but trying to create a story that works with all races means you get a story where that selection becomes meaningless.

Well to me it depends on the storyline. U can make a lot with it. And yes we already have the elf point of view which is very interesting to play. If it was elves like what we have in Origin or Lords of the ring maybe people will get out into it without hesitation.

The fact is in my opinion there is already to many RPG game limited to the choice of human. Plus in Dragon Age 3 or 4 u have all the opportunities possible and are allowed to offer to the fans whatever comes.... Honestly i don't care about the chantry my only interest was the darkspawn and demons every where. If i want to fight against other human for sure i prefer some other games.

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

Yeah, but it still leaves out those who enjoy race options. (20% of players using different races is still 1/5th of the fanbase, and the devs alienated them by taking away the option not to use the homogonized human route.) I'm still extremely skeptical, but I'm glad you're optimistic.

I agree...I've always thought 15-20% (or more, with the unknown variance of people like me who, at the time, weren't online and couldn't provide telemetry data) of around 4.5 million consumers, IIRC, was a very significant part of the population.  This change in direction saddens me greatly and I wish I could say I was truly optimistic about DA:I.  I don't plan to buy Inquisition, but I do try to hold out hope for future games.  The lore keeps me invested in the series

I think you hit the nail on the head with both points. I think though that Brosca does more in the long run than Tabris since most social reforms for the elves fall apart within several years, whereas the casteless receive lasting changes under Bhelen, but it was still nice while it lasted.

The DA:O epilogue undermining most city elf reforms was one of many reasons why I was hoping for race options for further games. I was hoping that more elven heroes could positively represent the elven race and influence positive changes for city elven culture.

That's an excellent point, one I know that you and LobselVith8 have been discussing.  I wish investments in helping the elves had panned out better, or at all as the case may be.  I had hoped as well to pick up the reform my Warden had begun, and continue to make more lasting changes...including, for my part, rescuing the remaining Denerim elves (and anyone else) from slavery in Tevinter.

As you said, the city elf population is factioning, especially in the presence of the Qunari. City elves have put up with poverty and second-class citizenry for centuries to preserve their dying culture, but the last shreds of their culture are dissolving, as well as their reason to put up with it. Half of them seem to want desperately to keep holding on, while the other half want to just drop it and move on. Hence, in DA2, some city elves convert to the Qun for a better way of live, while others savagely rebuke them and accuse the Qunari of speeding up their cultural demise. Eventually, this subtle factioning is going to crack wide open (I'm guessing when the Qunari finally decide to reconquer Thedas), and I want to be in the middle of it as a fellow elf when it happens. Not glance briefly from the outside as a human who doesn't know or care about elven culture, or even bother to learn their names like Hawke and the "Elven Fanatics" from Blackpowder Courtesy and Demands of the Qun. 

I just want to be an elf, or dwarf, or kossith. I want to see the world from their eyes.

Completely agreed   I felt this was a subtle subtext in DA2 that I hope to see more of.  The quiet, yet somehow blatant, suffering throughout the Acts in the alienage (as well as in Darktown, and for many humans as well) was something I wanted to be able to address, just as I wanted to speak more to the elves post Act 2.  Why did their kin fight alongside the Qunari?  What were they trying to communicate beyond outrage? 

[SpunkyMonkey]

nightscrawl wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I think you need to be a little more open minded.

Bracketing all elves, humans and dwarves into a locked POV or one agenda is silly - people have different motivations for working with different groups.

You suggested a limited POV by saying that the races could be united by a larger crisis. I'm sure there are groups who wouldn't give a damn about a Blight, no matter how it also affected their own people, think that the best thing for them is to hole up until it blows over, and that it is NOT necessary to associate with humans for self preservation. There are people whose fear or hatred overrides everything else. Also, Bioware has not really shown that these large groups, particularly the Dalish, have a desire to do what you suggested.

I didn't want to get into it in that previous posts, but unfortunately, I think using a similar gimmick to DAO to "unite" groups is just that: gimmicky and lame. I'd think that people who really want multiple PC races could come up with something better so we have a compelling story and multi-race.

I'm sure that they could , it was only 1 example I was using to illustrate how you can get around the issue of having to referance the  main PC by race and not job.

[ianvillan]

nightscrawl wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Unify the races because of imminent danger, be someone so individual/special that you are viewed individually (e.g. as "The Arisen") which negates concerns of race, etc.

Simple stuff.

We had that in DAO. Without exception, with the Brecilian Forest elves, the Denerim Alienage elves, and the DAA elves the situation eventually reverted into conflict after the events were done.

Having disparate groups work together temporarily, as in DAO, is fine if the crisis is huge enough and the PC has reason enough to unite them. In DAO it wasn't all your PC's awesomeness, the Grey Wardens had their treaties. Using a gimmick like "unite for the greater cause because the bad thing affects us all" is good when used in moderation.


Now that I think about these races and their agendas, it would be interesting to have a different group based on who you side with in DA3. If you support the mages, the elves might be willing to help you because you have a common enemy in the Chantry. If you support the templars the dwarves would help because of the lyrium trade -- a guaranteed source of income that they have relied on for centuries is better than taking a gamble on mages.

Even if you managed to work the above into the multi-race PC, the elves and dwarves would be more or less locked into a certain viewpoint, whereas humans are free to pick a side.

You could have Elves who see the Qunari as a great threat to there freedom and culture who think a strong chantry is the only way of stopping them.

The dwarfs could be wary of the templars and the chantry turning there attention onto them so would welcome the mages who they would have less reason to fear being free and helping them destroy the chantry.

Bioware is a talented developer they could easily create many different factions in each race who would want there own things and would be willing to go about achieving there goals in different ways.

[LobselVith8]

Sidney wrote...

I'm still stunned people care this much about race selection. It doesn't matter. Even in games with it (BG1/2, NWN, DAO, TES - any of them) it was a non-issue because they had to craft as generic a story as possible and they couldn't account for each race in any meaningful way other than very rare piffle level dialog.

You look at all the good to great games that didn't have any race selection (KOTOR1/2, TW1/2, FO1/2/3/NV, JE) and you wonder what the heck all the fuss is about.

I still say I'd rather have an elf-only game than a human only game in the DA* world because there is a LOT you can do IF you can craft the story to that particular race but trying to create a story that works with all races means you get a story where that selection becomes meaningless. 

I don't understand why you are "stunned" people care about this. Plenty of people have already explained why they care about racial options in a fantasy RPG. Are you always stunned when people don't share your views about a particular feature in a game?

[Nenya Higurashi]

I'm really disappointed: I rarely play the human when I'm not forced to do so... and I really hoped to have raced back for DA:I but...

[SpunkyMonkey]

ianvillan wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Unify the races because of imminent danger, be someone so individual/special that you are viewed individually (e.g. as "The Arisen") which negates concerns of race, etc.

Simple stuff.

We had that in DAO. Without exception, with the Brecilian Forest elves, the Denerim Alienage elves, and the DAA elves the situation eventually reverted into conflict after the events were done.

Having disparate groups work together temporarily, as in DAO, is fine if the crisis is huge enough and the PC has reason enough to unite them. In DAO it wasn't all your PC's awesomeness, the Grey Wardens had their treaties. Using a gimmick like "unite for the greater cause because the bad thing affects us all" is good when used in moderation.


Now that I think about these races and their agendas, it would be interesting to have a different group based on who you side with in DA3. If you support the mages, the elves might be willing to help you because you have a common enemy in the Chantry. If you support the templars the dwarves would help because of the lyrium trade -- a guaranteed source of income that they have relied on for centuries is better than taking a gamble on mages.

Even if you managed to work the above into the multi-race PC, the elves and dwarves would be more or less locked into a certain viewpoint, whereas humans are free to pick a side.

You could have Elves who see the Qunari as a great threat to there freedom and culture who think a strong chantry is the only way of stopping them.

The dwarfs could be wary of the templars and the chantry turning there attention onto them so would welcome the mages who they would have less reason to fear being free and helping them destroy the chantry.

Bioware is a talented developer they could easily create many different factions in each race who would want there own things and would be willing to go about achieving there goals in different ways.

Exactly.

Anyone who ever says that something can't be done because of how something is already set just has a limited imagination. There aint nothing you can't re-write, especially in a fantasy world. The Maker himself could appear and change everything if he wanted!

[ghost_ronin]

I most often play human, because i'm biased..being human...But playing through an origin would be great, it made a huge impact on the amount of replays i would do. I really liked how they influenced dialog through the game, i particularly love when some drunken sod gets tough with my knife-ear and he realizes he stands BEFORE A GOD.

[Uccio]

With Origins and its race selection I felt like I was given a slice of chokolate cake. With DA2 human only option (with all the other shortcomings) I felt like I was being given a dry chokolate biscuit. Its really nice and all but I still don't want to pay the same amout from a biscuit as I'm paying from a piece of cake. And now there is this eerie feeling that I'm going to be offered another biscuit. With the same price.

[ianvillan]

Ukki wrote...

With Origins and its race selection I felt like I was given a slice of chokolate cake. With DA2 human only option (with all the other shortcomings) I felt like I was being given a dry chokolate biscuit. Its really nice and all but I still don't want to pay the same amout from a biscuit as I'm paying from a piece of cake. And now there is this eerie feeling that I'm going to be offered another biscuit. With the same price.

You will be offered a biscuit but Bioware will tell you it is really a cake.

[Rhiens VI]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
There aint nothing you can't re-write,

... to please a minority, at the cost of time and resources which could be well spent elsewhere?

[Rhiens VI]

Ukki wrote...

And now there is this eerie feeling that I'm going to be offered another biscuit. With the same price.

Would you prefer to be told you're getting a cake, while actually getting a biscuit, because the cake was too much to handle?

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 01 février 2013 - 12:05 .

[ianvillan]

Rhiens VI wrote...

Ukki wrote...

And now there is this eerie feeling that I'm going to be offered another biscuit. With the same price.

Would you prefer to be told you're getting a cake, while actually getting a biscuit?

Isnt that what Bioware is doing by saying they want the best of both games but are bring most of the features of DA2 back, and seem to be having trouble even saying what features of Origins they would like to bring back.

If you are making a DA2.5 say that you are making it but dont try to say that it will also be like Origins when it is not.

Modifié par ianvillan, 01 février 2013 - 12:07 .

[Uccio]

^ Exactly. If they are actually using anything from DAO then they could say so since some of DA2 features have been confirmed too. It really seems they are using DA2 as a platform and just modifying it a bit.

Modifié par Ukki, 01 février 2013 - 01:18 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Rhiens VI wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
There aint nothing you can't re-write,

... to please a minority, at the cost of time and resources which could be well spent elsewhere?

Would take minimal effort and imagination IMO. No great expense or time that's for sure.

Character is raised by human, has a human outlook on the world, is reffered to by others as "inquisitor" and they react to them based on both the Inquisition's reputation and the reputation defined by what the character has actually done, not his race.

Took me 2 minutes that. One day and I coud sort any scenario. 1 day of 1 persons time is not too much resource in any way, shape or form.

[Sutekh]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Would take minimal effort and imagination IMO. No great expense or time that's for sure.

Character is raised by human, has a human outlook on the world, is reffered to by others as "inquisitor" and they react to them based on both the Inquisition's reputation and the reputation defined by what the character has actually done, not his race.

Took me 2 minutes that. One day and I coud sort any scenario. 1 day of 1 persons time is not too much resource in any way, shape or form.

The fact that it's far from being as simple as you think set aside, what would be the point of playing an elf or a dwarf if you play it exactly like a human?

And if your answer is "the look", let me remind you of the cinematics question.

[ianvillan]

Sutekh wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Would take minimal effort and imagination IMO. No great expense or time that's for sure.

Character is raised by human, has a human outlook on the world, is reffered to by others as "inquisitor" and they react to them based on both the Inquisition's reputation and the reputation defined by what the character has actually done, not his race.

Took me 2 minutes that. One day and I coud sort any scenario. 1 day of 1 persons time is not too much resource in any way, shape or form.

The fact that it's far from being as simple as you think set aside, what would be the point of playing an elf or a dwarf if you play it exactly like a human?

And if your answer is "the look", let me remind you of the cinematics question.

If it is that difficult for a company like Bioware to write a story that works if you are Human, Elf or Dwarf then how did we get Origins and if it is now so difficult for Bioware to create a story for different races what is the chances of ever getting a story that includes different races from Bioware ever again.

[LobselVith8]

Rhiens VI wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

There aint nothing you can't re-write,

... to please a minority, at the cost of time and resources which could be well spent elsewhere? 

I think plenty of fans were pleased with the racial options in Origins. Many people are pleased to have racial options in the Elder Scrolls games. And some people won't even bother with Inquisition because they prefer to play as a non-human protagonist in a fantasy game.

[Sutekh]

ianvillan wrote...

If it is that difficult for a company like Bioware to write a story that works if you are Human, Elf or Dwarf then how did we get Origins and if it is now so difficult for Bioware to create a story for different races what is the chances of ever getting a story that includes different races from Bioware ever again.

And this answers my question how?

So I repeat, all I've seen so far is along the line of "Piece of cake, let's just make elves taller" or "I could do that with my eyes closed, let's just write a generic story that would fit all races". So, what's the point of playing a non-human race if it plays exactly like a human?

Now, to answer yours, I've no idea. I'm no Bioware dev. What I believe is: Their creation, their priorities, their choice, and I respect that. I'm pretty sure they didn't make that choice just to ****** people off; they probably have good sound reasons, technical, creative or both.

Point is, the making of a game isn't a democracy. The franchise is there to tell the story of a world. If that particular installment requires a story that has no place for elves or dwarves, then so be it. If they'd rather put zots elsewhere than in playable races, it's their right. It is not my place nor yours to tell them how to do their job. If I'm not happy with it, all I have to do is not buy the game, or even rant about it, but demanding they change something as essential as the whole story to fit my whim would be beyond arrogant (and slightly delusional).

And, jsyk, I am very disappointed by the human-only thing, I very much hope we'll be able to elf-up in the future, but tbh I'd rather have Bioware follow their vision.

[Xilizhra]

Point is, the making of a game isn't a democracy. The franchise is there to tell the story of a world. If that particular installment requires a story that has no place for elves or dwarves, then so be it. If they'd rather put zots elsewhere than in playable races, it's their right. It is not my place nor yours to tell them how to do their job. If I'm not happy with it, all I have to do is not buy the game, or even rant about it, but demanding they change something as essential as the whole story to fit my whim would be beyond arrogant (and slightly delusional).

Strictly speaking, if we don't tell them how we want them to do our job, they'll have no idea what works and what doesn't, thus harming their sale numbers. As long as this board is still standing, we have the right to tell them whatever we believe they need to know. Such as the fact that they may well be shooting themselves in the foot with this restricted race system. And as to whether or not I'd rather have Bioware follow their vision... I don't know what their vision is, so I can't say, but the initial glimpses in regard to the race thing don't look encouraging. I don't think there's enough interesting about humans to justify saying that a story has to be from their perspective.

[ianvillan]

Sutekh wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

If it is that difficult for a company like Bioware to write a story that works if you are Human, Elf or Dwarf then how did we get Origins and if it is now so difficult for Bioware to create a story for different races what is the chances of ever getting a story that includes different races from Bioware ever again.

And this answers my question how?

So I repeat, all I've seen so far is along the line of "Piece of cake, let's just make elves taller" or "I could do that with my eyes closed, let's just write a generic story that would fit all races". So, what's the point of playing a non-human race if it plays exactly like a human?

Now, to answer yours, I've no idea. I'm no Bioware dev. What I believe is: Their creation, their priorities, their choice, and I respect that. I'm pretty sure they didn't make that choice just to ****** people off; they probably have good sound reasons, technical, creative or both.

Point is, the making of a game isn't a democracy. The franchise is there to tell the story of a world. If that particular installment requires a story that has no place for elves or dwarves, then so be it. If they'd rather put zots elsewhere than in playable races, it's their right. It is not my place nor yours to tell them how to do their job. If I'm not happy with it, all I have to do is not buy the game, or even rant about it, but demanding they change something as essential as the whole story to fit my whim would be beyond arrogant (and slightly delusional).

And, jsyk, I am very disappointed by the human-only thing, I very much hope we'll be able to elf-up in the future, but tbh I'd rather have Bioware follow their vision.

I agree with saying that it is Biowares choice if they want a Human only character, what I disagree with is when people try to say it is because the story is writen so that it would be impossible for different races.

Bioware wrote the story for DA2 and DA3 knowing that they would be only using a Human only character, so to say that Bioware is only going with a Human only character because it is only what will fit the story is silly.

I do believe the only reason they went Human only character is because of lack of resources to do more races not the story and definetly not the feedback data they recieved from Origins. Now why they have less resources and what they have done with the resources they have is another discussion.

Modifié par ianvillan, 01 février 2013 - 03:24 .