3855 réponses à ce sujet

[CrabbyCrackers]

I dont care if i can only be human as long as i can make him my human. But for the love of the maker please dont let me be a blood mage unless im going to have to pay for it in some way.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Sutekh wrote...

The fact that it's far from being as simple as you think set aside, what would be the point of playing an elf or a dwarf if you play it exactly like a human?

And if your answer is "the look", let me remind you of the cinematics question.

From a practicle POV it would add a slight twist on stats. Maybe the odd weapon/item that is only useable by a certain race?

But more than "the look" it's just what FRPG's should do, and a players connection with a race gives a player a feel-good factor and makes the experience more enjoyable. I love playing an elf - always have - I was brought up in a very rural area and feel an affinity to that type of character. The game doesn't have to do anything to make me enjoy that, it just has to give me the option of being one.

20-30 years ago D&D players let their imagination do a lot of work, I think that many people can imagine their way into feeling like an elf/dwarf given the visual reprisentation and option to be one.

The odd line of dialogue and odd different reaction would help, but I think the trouble is people like you want everything done for them and it all layed on a plate for them. Other gamers just want the option to be able to do it themselves.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 04 février 2013 - 02:59 .

[Felya87]

thinking a little, I agree with SpunkyMonkey. I don't need the game to react to the race the PG is.
It' s a cute thing, but I don't need it.
I'm restarting NWN2, and I find that I don't even really need different origins too. I just need to create my character as I wish.
I can roleplay a cruel Drow or a sensible Half Elf. The trait the lore give to the various races can give me the information I need to create my character.

[Uccio]

That was actually one of my issues with NWN2, nonexistent race. Would have been cool though to have a separate quest regarding pc´s origins and to have it affect the gameplay and storyline.

[Cell1e]

Felya87 wrote...

thinking a little, I agree with SpunkyMonkey. I don't need the game to react to the race the PG is.
It' s a cute thing, but I don't need it.
I'm restarting NWN2, and I find that I don't even really need different origins too. I just need to create my character as I wish.
I can roleplay a cruel Drow or a sensible Half Elf. The trait the lore give to the various races can give me the information I need to create my character.

Oh gosh yes, I remember that! NWN2 was such an awesome game and the character creater choice at the beginning was pretty special. Another thing about that game....amazing and wonderful variety of armors...ahh sigh...loved those armors.

Modifié par Cell1e, 04 février 2013 - 04:39 .

[In Exile]

Cell1e wrote...
Oh gosh yes, I remember that! NWN2 was such an awesome game and the character creater choice at the beginning was pretty special. Another thing about that game....amazing and wonderful variety of armors...ahh sigh...loved those armors.

My favourite part was how everyone knew you were a harbour[whatever], despite the fact that the only non-human there was your dour uncle. 

[LobselVith8]

renjility wrote...

Nimyue wrote...

I loved being able to choose to not believe in the Maker at all in DA:O

Yeah, apparently that possibility was just an accident. For the human noble at least. 

And the Surana protagonist. 

And the Warden-Commander in the City of Amaranthine (to Justice). :happy:

[Heimdall]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

The fact that it's far from being as simple as you think set aside, what would be the point of playing an elf or a dwarf if you play it exactly like a human?

And if your answer is "the look", let me remind you of the cinematics question.

From a practicle POV it would add a slight twist on stats. Maybe the odd weapon/item that is only useable by a certain race?

But more than "the look" it's just what FRPG's should do, and a players connection with a race gives a player a feel-good factor and makes the experience more enjoyable. I love playing an elf - always have - I was brought up in a very rural area and feel an affinity to that type of character. The game doesn't have to do anything to make me enjoy that, it just has to give me the option of being one.

20-30 years ago D&D players let their imagination do a lot of work, I think that many people can imagine their way into feeling like an elf/dwarf given the visual reprisentation and option to be one.

The odd line of dialogue and odd different reaction would help, but I think the trouble is people like you want everything done for them and it all layed on a plate for them. Other gamers just want the option to be able to do it themselves.

The issue in the case of DA is that they've established that different races are treated differently.  To not see that reflected when NPCs do recieve that distinction would be... jarring.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 février 2013 - 07:12 .

[Yumichika]

How did i miss NWN2 it's sound like such an amazing game!
To be honest i don't like limited options in fantasy world. even if i choose human race feeling that i had the choice make the game more appealing plus Oghren, Bianca and Varric were too good characters why i played as dwarf my second time. I could not wait to do so.

Fenris is also another to see Elves, doing all this work for nothing... if they do i think it's better replacing the Qunaries with bulls elves by human slave and dwarves by hand works.

[LobselVith8]

Melca36 wrote...

Nimyue wrote...

And UGH if we have to play a religious member gag me with a spoon. I just can't even pretend it! I loved being able to choose to not believe in the Maker at all in DA:O

They already said you will NOT be forced into playing a religious character in the game. 

I think the information from the survey - about the protagonist being a member of the Inquisition, which is named after a group of religious proto-templars who hunted down mages and heretics - makes some people wary about how much freedom they will have in defining who their protagonist is (since this group doesn't seem to be as "neutral" as the Grey Wardens are when they have such an inflammatory name), and whether the protagonist will be as pre-defined as Hawke was. That was part of the appeal of the racial backgrounds and origins: you had different characters who could see Thedas in different ways.

With Origins, you have multiple protagonists and backgrounds to chose from, and even the options to express how you viewed the Chantry, Andraste, and whether or not you believed in the Maker. In contrast, with Dragon Age II, you had Hawke, and you were stuck with him, so you either liked him or hated him, with the addition of being limited to certain points of view with the character. The kind of freedom that was avaliable in Origins simply isn't present in Dragon Age II, and Inquisition seems to be taking quite a few cues from Dragon Age II (while I haven't heard about the newest game taking any from Origins).

There is the concern about whether the protagonist will have some people dealing with the same problems that some of us ran into with Hawke: being stuck with a protagonist who isn't really our character (because he ends up being more defined by the developers than he is by the player), and who expresses opinions and views that we don't want for our character.

[Mantaal]

Felya87 wrote...

thinking a little, I agree with SpunkyMonkey. I don't need the game to react to the race the PG is.
It' s a cute thing, but I don't need it.
I'm restarting NWN2, and I find that I don't even really need different origins too. I just need to create my character as I wish.
I can roleplay a cruel Drow or a sensible Half Elf. The trait the lore give to the various races can give me the information I need to create my character.

First of all Roleplaying starts in the head of the Player. Heck there are even Text based Roleplaying Games. You can Roleplay in a normal Chatroom without a single Picture of your Charakter.
I dont need NPCs to tell me im a Dwarf on every corner of a Game. I know what i did click on at the Charackter Builder.
I dont need an Human NPC to spit on me every time i enter a City. 

Sure it would be nice to have my Race mentioned here and there or even had different Quests or choices. But its not THAT important. 
I will always remember the Old Lady had an Hearth attack when i entered the Diner in Vampire Bloodlines as an Nosferatu. That just made the game better. But if i had to chose from "No races at all" and "Your race will not be mentioned by all NPCs" ill take the 2nd option. 
Just wondering why such things where normal some time ago and today its impossible. 
Its a bit like they would have skipped all other Races in Lord of the Rings 3 because the animations and costumes where to expensive and peoples did like Aragon more then Gimli and Legolas anyways. 

In NWN i had the freedom to play what ever i wanted to play. But NwN was a RPG. DA2 (in my opinion) is not. 
And about DA:I. We need to take a look at it when its done. I like RPGs. If DA:I is no RPG again. There is no reason to buy it for me.  

[Gangster No.1]

My problem with a human PC is a very simple one: humans are overused.

In virtually all RPGs I've played, humans are the dominant race in their respective in-game universe, and that's getting a little old. Not that I'd want to play a dwarf or elf just for the heck of it if doesn't make sense. For example, Hawke simply had to be a human in DA2, otherwise the whole story would have been quite awkward. But it was likewise absolutely fine that the Warden could be any race in DA:O because it didn't really matter in the end.

And that's what I want in DA:I - a story that makes sense regardless of the PC's race. If there are some race-specific quests or twists in it, even better. But I would very much like not being stuck with another member of the oh-so-dominant race of Thedas. If I can play a human, great. If I must play a human, not great.

[tiberius_adamantine]

Gangster No.1 wrote...

My problem with a human PC is a very simple one: humans are overused.

In virtually all RPGs I've played, humans are the dominant race in their respective in-game universe, and that's getting a little old. Not that I'd want to play a dwarf or elf just for the heck of it if doesn't make sense. For example, Hawke simply had to be a human in DA2, otherwise the whole story would have been quite awkward. But it was likewise absolutely fine that the Warden could be any race in DA:O because it didn't really matter in the end.

And that's what I want in DA:I - a story that makes sense regardless of the PC's race. If there are some race-specific quests or twists in it, even better. But I would very much like not being stuck with another member of the oh-so-dominant race of Thedas. If I can play a human, great. If I must play a human, not great.

I completely agree with that. I get tired of: we are dominant, as a whole we are racist, we far outnumber all others. It doesn't help either that Bioware decided to give humans genetic superiority (by this i mean that the children of elves and humans is always human, even though they did technically mention a "half-dwarf"). Again I liked DA2 but it didn't really matter if it was played or not because you were put on a set path and your choices didn't really matter in the end. What we need is another rpg like the first which has different racial options and complex choices like the first. An rpg without the possibility of different perspectives from the pc isn't much of one at all.

[Rhiens VI]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

From a practicle POV it would add a slight twist on stats. Maybe the odd weapon/item that is only useable by a certain race?

But more than "the look" it's just what FRPG's should do, and a players connection with a race gives a player a feel-good factor and makes the experience more enjoyable.

20-30 years ago D&D players let their imagination do a lot of work, I think that many people can imagine their way into feeling like an elf/dwarf given the visual reprisentation and option to be one.

Yeah... And then there will be another uproar "Why my character's race doesn't matter?!".

People complain that their mage class doesn't have enough impact on the story in DA2, and you want a different race "just for looks and stats"... Right.

Really, try and look at things in perspective, your "simple" wish will have a huge impact.

[Mantaal]

Rhiens VI wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

From a practicle POV it would add a slight twist on stats. Maybe the odd weapon/item that is only useable by a certain race?

But more than "the look" it's just what FRPG's should do, and a players connection with a race gives a player a feel-good factor and makes the experience more enjoyable.

20-30 years ago D&D players let their imagination do a lot of work, I think that many people can imagine their way into feeling like an elf/dwarf given the visual reprisentation and option to be one.

Yeah... And then there will be another uproar "Why my character's race doesn't matter?!".

People complain that their mage class doesn't have enough impact on the story in DA2, and you want a different race "just for looks and stats"... Right.

Really, try and look at things in perspective, your "simple" wish will have a huge impact.

Still better then no Races at all. Mage in DA2 was still better then skip the mage.

[Sutekh]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

From a practicle POV it would add a slight twist on stats. Maybe the odd weapon/item that is only useable by a certain race?

But more than "the look" it's just what FRPG's should do, and a players connection with a race gives a player a feel-good factor and makes the experience more enjoyable. I love playing an elf - always have - I was brought up in a very rural area and feel an affinity to that type of character. The game doesn't have to do anything to make me enjoy that, it just has to give me the option of being one.

20-30 years ago D&D players let their imagination do a lot of work, I think that many people can imagine their way into feeling like an elf/dwarf given the visual reprisentation and option to be one.

The odd line of dialogue and odd different reaction would help, but I think the trouble is people like you want everything done for them and it all layed on a plate for them. Other gamers just want the option to be able to do it themselves.

People like me? Is it when you tell me that because I don't expect the same things from a game as you do, I don't have imagination? And you get all that from a simple question? You have absolutely no idea of what I want and how I want it served. Do not assume and generalize. Btw, I also was a D&D player, and if memory serves, the racial differences in stats alone were much more important than in DA (where they are quasi inexistent).

Now that's it's out of the way (hopefully), and since, apparently, I must, lest I'm dismissed as part of the heathen crowd of Not True RPGers, let me explain.

I like to play elves too (see avatar) If given the opportunity, I'll play one. If the game's lore doesn't make a big fuss about races, I won't care whether it plays like a human. I'm happy just playing one. But DA's lore do put an emphasis on how the elves are treated (City Elves) or the huge cultural difference and defiance from and to human society (Dalish). It's a very important part of said lore.

So if I play an elf but everyone around reacts exactly as though I was human, I have a problem. If I can occupy a position that the lore  normally forbids me without any special reason, I have a problem too. Thedas loses its internal logic, its integrity, the roleplaying pros of playing an elf in Thedas get lost, and, in Thedas, I'm just a short human with pointy ears, while my whole experience should be different because the lore says so.

Distorting the lore for fanservice - especially considering the cost (cinematics, armors etc...) - seems to me a very poor solution.

Mantaal wrote...

Still better then no Races at all. Mage in DA2 was still better then skip the mage.

The Mages treatment (or lack thereof) in DA2 was bad, especially Blood Mages, but comparing mages to races is a bit far fetched. Mages are still mages, with their own abilities, which, in itself, makes the class something worth playing. Races have nothing special gameplay-wise. It's all lore. So if you remove most of the look and world interactions just to squeeze them in, you're left with nothing that make them distinct.

Modifié par Sutekh, 05 février 2013 - 10:18 .

[Dutchess]

^Considering how much focus there was on (blood) mages in DA2, I'd say it comes very close to the level of races. Having no reaction whatsoever to being an elf is as inconsistent and lore-breaking as Hawke letting it rain fireballs on Cullen's head without consequences..

[Sutekh]

renjility wrote...

^Considering how much focus there was on (blood) mages in DA2, I'd say it comes very close to the level of races. Having no reaction whatsoever to being an elf is as inconsistent and lore-breaking as Hawke letting it rain fireballs on Cullen's head without consequences..

Mages are still the only ones able to cast spells. There is nothing special with races regarding gameplay - except for the dwarves and magic. A human can do everything the other races do. Rogues and warriors can't do what a mage does. So, no, Mages / Races isn't a good comparison.

[tiberius_adamantine]

just a quick thought but if this is about a time of great change for thedas, why should we play only from the perspective of mainstream society?

[Demi Strike]

disappointed being only able to play one race makes the game seam limited.

[Mantaal]

Faerunner wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

renjility wrote...

^Considering how much focus there was on (blood) mages in DA2, I'd say it comes very close to the level of races. Having no reaction whatsoever to being an elf is as inconsistent and lore-breaking as Hawke letting it rain fireballs on Cullen's head without consequences..

Mages are still the only ones able to cast spells. There is nothing special with races regarding gameplay - except for the dwarves and magic. A human can do everything the other races do. Rogues and warriors can't do what a mage does. So, no, Mages / Races isn't a good comparison.

Except that mages and other races are both outcasts in human society. Except that, in the case of elves and mages, both are hated, mistrusted and mistreated by humans. Except that humans almost always comment when they see mage, elven, dwarven, and kossith characters, which makes it equally jarring when they fail to comment on any of those distinctions for the protagonist; whether mage or non-human.

There's more to mages than just gameplay; there's also roleplay. (Their role in their world and other inhabitents' reactions to them). In terms of roleplay, mages and non-humans are in the same position of being considered the outliers of human societies and subject to (at the very least) comments and discrimination when encountering human characters.

So what if there isn't as significant an amount of gameplay changes for other races as mages at this time? This is a roleplaying franchise, supposedl). Sometimes people want to roleplay. Some people don't need super special gameplay features to want to roleplay as other races. (Though I think a quick fix would be greater gameplay benefits for other races.) Sometimes just seeing the world from their cultural and socio/economic perspective is reward enough. Sometimes just getting basic reactions for their role in the their universe (like random characters expressing a little disbelief in seeing an elf or dwarf doing a human's job, same as just seeing templars express the same horror and shock at seeing a mage protagonist running around as they do NPC's).

You talking to the Wow generation of players. They think Roleplaying is -killing countless Enemys for no reason and get Epixx- You only need to be a Human with flashy animations for that. 

[Sutekh]

Faerunner wrote...

Except that mages and other races are both outcasts in human society. Except that, in the case of elves and mages, both are hated, mistrusted and mistreated by humans. Except that humans almost always comment when they see mage, elven, dwarven, and kossith characters, which makes it equally jarring when they fail to comment on any of those distinctions for the protagonist; whether mage or non-human.

There's more to mages than just gameplay; there's also roleplay. (Their role in their world and other inhabitents' reactions to them). In terms of roleplay, mages and non-humans are in the same position of being considered the outliers of human societies and subject to (at the very least) comments and discrimination when encountering human characters.

So what if there isn't as significant an amount of gameplay changes for other races as mages at this time? This is a roleplaying franchise, supposedl). Sometimes people want to roleplay. Some people don't need super special gameplay features to want to roleplay as other races. (Though I think a quick fix would be greater gameplay benefits for other races.) Sometimes just seeing the world from their cultural and socio/economic perspective is reward enough. Sometimes just getting basic reactions for their role in the their universe (like random characters expressing a little disbelief in seeing an elf or dwarf doing a human's job, same as just seeing templars express the same horror and shock at seeing a mage protagonist running around as they do NPC's).

OK. Once more, with feeling.

I'm not denying that the roleplaying treatment of mages was bad and lore-breaking. It was. I'm not saying that races should have more gameplay differences to be justified either. My point is that even when stripped of the lore elements, there's still a reason to play a mage and so keeping the class is justified.

- What's the point of playing a mage in lore-broken DA2? -> Cast spells, access a whole new set of abilities and tactics. i.e. There's still the gameplay aspect.

- What would be the point of playing a lore-broken elf / dwarf? -> Practically speaking, none. Take away the lore, there's nothing left.

You're talking about roleplaying, with small recognition here and there from the game. I would be all for that. I could even do without if the lore was race blind. I have in many other games. I can fill the blanks.

I'm responding to people who want to play an elf / dwarf no matter how - specifically in the Dragon Age context - by having them play exactly like a human. Exactly. That's the key word here. No recognition at all in a setting that makes a big deal of races and their respective place in society. "It's easy, Bioware, simply replace the human model by an elf one, and even go as far as make it human-size to accomodate cinematics".

It's not a problem of not enough recognition, it's a problem of going against the lore, destroying its internal logic. I'd rather play a human in a consistent Thedas than an elf in some generic world which happens to be named so because sequel. Dragon Age is above all Thedas and its lore.

And yes, I wasn't happy to cast Blood Magic right in front of Cullen and get a big nothing in reaction, but something having already been badly done doesn't justify doing it again.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The issue in the case of DA is that they've established that different races are treated differently.  To not see that reflected when NPCs do recieve that distinction would be... jarring.

Maybe a compramise would have to be reached, but I don't see why the job role and position still can't prevail over race?

If Obama came up to me in the street I'd be thinking "There's the president!" not "There's a black man!"

Rhiens VI wrote...

Yeah... And then there will be another uproar "Why my character's race doesn't matter?!".

People complain that their mage class doesn't have enough impact on the story in DA2, and you want a different race "just for looks and stats"... Right.

Really, try and look at things in perspective, your "simple" wish will have a huge impact.

We can't have it all and I think those people who complain have been spoilt with such depth previously, and need to cut the devs some slack. I just need a good story and an FRPG feel. Races don't necessarily have to factor into that - not from the PC's POV anyway.

Racial issues have also been done to death and it's getting a bit tedious now.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 06 février 2013 - 10:09 .