3855 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexJK]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The issue in the case of DA is that they've established that different races are treated differently.  To not see that reflected when NPCs do recieve that distinction would be... jarring.

Maybe a compramise would have to be reached, but I don't see why the job role and position still can't prevail over race?

If Obama came up to me in the street I'd be thinking "There's the president!" not "There's a black man!"

Sure, in 2013, with today's racial attitudes. In 1950, your reaction might have been a bit different.

In a world where elves are treated as second class citizens, servants or slaves, and are forced to live in segregated alienages (a bit more like 1950 than 2013!), do you think role would trump race for most people?

(NB: I know there are exceptions in the DA universe. For example, being a mage seems to trump the distinction of human or elf, and the Grey Wardens are established as being equal regardless of race. My point is that those are quite specific exceptions, and require story elements to be built around them, thus limiting the story.)

Modifié par AlexJK, 06 février 2013 - 09:53 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

AlexJK wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The issue in the case of DA is that they've established that different races are treated differently.  To not see that reflected when NPCs do recieve that distinction would be... jarring.

Maybe a compramise would have to be reached, but I don't see why the job role and position still can't prevail over race?

If Obama came up to me in the street I'd be thinking "There's the president!" not "There's a black man!"

Sure, in 2013, with today's racial attitudes. In 1950, your reaction might have been a bit different.

In a world where elves are treated as second class citizens, servants or slaves, and are forced to live in segregated alienages (a bit more like 1950 than 2013!), do you think role would trump race for most people?

(NB: I know there are exceptions in the DA universe. For example, being a mage seems to trump the distinction of human or elf, and the Grey Wardens are established as being equal regardless of race. My point is that those are quite specific exceptions, and require story elements to be built around them, thus limiting the story.)

In the middle ages and medival people were named after their trades.....

John Falconer, Harry Smith, Lucy Taylor, Karl Carpenter etc.

So I wouldn't count it out that's for sure.

I can see the race arguement, but were talking about the PC here - an inquisitor - a position and role that would totally segragate you from a normal person. Thta's not like being a mage, it's an individual role assigned specifically to the PC and a handful of other NPCS.

Much like being a famous football player or in a position of power - you would recognise these individuals by their role, not their race IMO.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 06 février 2013 - 11:22 .

[Mantaal]

Sutekh wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Except that mages and other races are both outcasts in human society. Except that, in the case of elves and mages, both are hated, mistrusted and mistreated by humans. Except that humans almost always comment when they see mage, elven, dwarven, and kossith characters, which makes it equally jarring when they fail to comment on any of those distinctions for the protagonist; whether mage or non-human.

There's more to mages than just gameplay; there's also roleplay. (Their role in their world and other inhabitents' reactions to them). In terms of roleplay, mages and non-humans are in the same position of being considered the outliers of human societies and subject to (at the very least) comments and discrimination when encountering human characters.

So what if there isn't as significant an amount of gameplay changes for other races as mages at this time? This is a roleplaying franchise, supposedl). Sometimes people want to roleplay. Some people don't need super special gameplay features to want to roleplay as other races. (Though I think a quick fix would be greater gameplay benefits for other races.) Sometimes just seeing the world from their cultural and socio/economic perspective is reward enough. Sometimes just getting basic reactions for their role in the their universe (like random characters expressing a little disbelief in seeing an elf or dwarf doing a human's job, same as just seeing templars express the same horror and shock at seeing a mage protagonist running around as they do NPC's).

OK. Once more, with feeling.

I'm not denying that the roleplaying treatment of mages was bad and lore-breaking. It was. I'm not saying that races should have more gameplay differences to be justified either. My point is that even when stripped of the lore elements, there's still a reason to play a mage and so keeping the class is justified.

- What's the point of playing a mage in lore-broken DA2? -> Cast spells, access a whole new set of abilities and tactics. i.e. There's still the gameplay aspect.

- What would be the point of playing a lore-broken elf / dwarf? -> Practically speaking, none. Take away the lore, there's nothing left.

You're talking about roleplaying, with small recognition here and there from the game. I would be all for that. I could even do without if the lore was race blind. I have in many other games. I can fill the blanks.

I'm responding to people who want to play an elf / dwarf no matter how - specifically in the Dragon Age context - by having them play exactly like a human. Exactly. That's the key word here. No recognition at all in a setting that makes a big deal of races and their respective place in society. "It's easy, Bioware, simply replace the human model by an elf one, and even go as far as make it human-size to accomodate cinematics".

It's not a problem of not enough recognition, it's a problem of going against the lore, destroying its internal logic. I'd rather play a human in a consistent Thedas than an elf in some generic world which happens to be named so because sequel. Dragon Age is above all Thedas and its lore.

And yes, I wasn't happy to cast Blood Magic right in front of Cullen and get a big nothing in reaction, but something having already been badly done doesn't justify doing it again.

So you didnt like almost every Computer RPG out there? 
I was walking adround as a Drow in Neverwinter, In ten towns, in Luskan and no one did care.
I was summoning Deamons, and undead in Citys and no one did care. 
I killed Bandits infront of Guards and they didnt care. 

I could continue all day long here. im doing stuff like that since 1992.
The point is. Computer RPGs are limited when it comes to stuff like that. They always where limited and will always be.
So i can live with that.
What i cant live with is that the RPGs going backwards. Instead of Fix stuff like that and bring more on the table they just skip stuff. 
We had that stuff already and now its to much work and to expensive so we skip it out? 
Reduce RPGs to a point we play an interactive movie? Its not a good idea to me. 

Modifié par Mantaal, 06 février 2013 - 11:50 .

[Sutekh]

Mantaal wrote...

So you didnt like almost every Computer RPG out there?

Who said I didn't like them? Liking - even loving - something doesn't mean being blind to its flaws.

I was walking adround as a Drow in Neverwinter, In ten towns, in Luskan and no one did care.
I was summoning Deamons, and undead in Citys and no one did care. 
I killed Bandits infront of Guards and they didnt care.

I do care. When a Skyrim guard greets me with a "All hail the Dragonborn!" and then two seconds later, the very same guard says "Keep your hands in your pocket, thief", I do have a problem. When in Game of Thrones my Night's Watch guy can prance around Castle Black wearing Wildling armor without anyone batting an eyelash, I do have a problem. It's inconsistent. It yanks me from the mood right then and there. It's not game-breaking, but mightily annoying. 

The problem is that Dragon Age has addressed races in DAO. Very heavily for some. The whole City Elf origin would make no sense without the racial aspect. Part of the Dalish one too (shemlens in the woods). The lore is very clear, and on a different level than "it's written somewhere". We've lived and observed it directly through the game. I've played games where races weren't acknowledged and it didn't bother me (much) because I wasn't expecting them to be. Them having specific content or not changed little to nothing, I could still headcanon my elves in without anything being badly broken.

I could continue all day long here. im doing stuff like that since 1992.

Yay! Credentials. I'm doing stuff like that since 1985. Doesn't mean I have to accept it, nor that my judgment is better than someone who's only played for one year (addressing your "WoW generation" up there in passing).

The point is. Computer RPGs are limited when it comes to stuff like that. They always where limited and will always be.
So i can live with that.

I know they are. That's not my point at all. I'm not asking for more recognition. I'm not saying races are useless because they don't have enough specific content. Just don't make DA race-blind all of a sudden and break a fine lore for the sole sake of playing a race that's not called "human" - because the name would be all that is left - in the DA context specifically.

What i cant live with is that the RPGs going backwards. Instead of Fix stuff like that and bring more on the table they just skip stuff. 
We had that stuff already and now its to much work and to expensive so we skip it out? 
Reduce RPGs to a point we play an interactive movie? Its not a good idea to me.

Lack of races doesn't mean you'll play an interactive movie. You still can have lots of different significative backgrounds, or a narrative allowing control, agency, choices and consequences if you don't, or both.

This said, I'm not defending the human-only thing. I'm not happy either with it. Not happy at all. So I kinda agree with the RPG going backwards here, but that wasn't my point.

[Yumichika]

I wasn't here in a while but i agree with SpunkyMonkey and Sutekh, Technology were very limited years ago but it's very different now.

Bioware decided to create a world a complete one. They can't jump from the origin full of potential to u will be forced to play as human no matter what cause humans make the world. The other races are useless and they don't deserve any sort of consideration. Specially in a medieval fantasy world.

To me it's simple, if they want to go with humans then they better erase all the other races without exception. Nobody forced them to write a scenario about inquisition. They could come with whatever to make us discover more about that world.

Now it's more of a caricatura. Chantry, Templars, Inquisition almost all now became the model of the medieval Europe. We can't talk anymore about darkspawns, Elves and dwarves doesn't make sens anymore. Let's not talk about Qunaris !

[Rhiens VI]

Mantaal wrote...

Still better then no Races at all.

No it isn't. Better to have a consistant story with a human protagonist, than a half-assed inclusion of other races for the sake of being inclusive.

[Rhiens VI]

Mantaal wrote...

You talking to the Wow generation of players. They think Roleplaying is -killing countless Enemys for no reason and get Epixx- You only need to be a Human with flashy animations for that. 

Feeling comfortable on your high horse?

[tiberius_adamantine]

Rhiens VI wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

Still better then no Races at all.

No it isn't. Better to have a consistant story with a human protagonist, than a half-assed inclusion of other races for the sake of being inclusive.

Having the option of more races would only strengthen the game by adding more perspectives and roleplaying elements. There is no justifyable reason to only have a human protagonist and remove the other races. All of the main content would stay the same, Bioware would just have to modify a few things using methods they have already used previously, which is just a bit tedious instead of being difficult, so your comment makes no sense.

[Rhiens VI]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

All of the main content would stay the same, Bioware would just have to modify a few things using methods they have already used previously.

And that's exactly what I see as a half-assed inclusion. Do it proper, or don't do it at all. I dislike usage of races for occasional "flavor". But that's just me.

[nightscrawl]

Mantaal wrote...

You talking to the Wow generation of players. They think Roleplaying is -killing countless Enemys for no reason and get Epixx- You only need to be a Human with flashy animations for that. 

Just so you know, since you are ignorant on the subject, WoW has dedicated ROLE PLAY servers for people to engage in RP content. Since the game doesn't actually support this via feedback for your RP, the servers basically exist as a place for like-minded RPers to get together in a mostly supportive environment. In fact, many non-RP players praise the RP servers for their friendliness. It's very much a group effort with people creating backgrounds for their characters and also guilds that engage in elaborate story lines within the context of the Azeroth lore and environment. There are also fan sites and other supportive content to help those players with ideas.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Yumichika wrote...

I wasn't here in a while but i agree with SpunkyMonkey and Sutekh, Technology were very limited years ago but it's very different now.

Bioware decided to create a world a complete one. They can't jump from the origin full of potential to u will be forced to play as human no matter what cause humans make the world. The other races are useless and they don't deserve any sort of consideration. Specially in a medieval fantasy world.

To me it's simple, if they want to go with humans then they better erase all the other races without exception. Nobody forced them to write a scenario about inquisition. They could come with whatever to make us discover more about that world.

Now it's more of a caricatura. Chantry, Templars, Inquisition almost all now became the model of the medieval Europe. We can't talk anymore about darkspawns, Elves and dwarves doesn't make sens anymore. Let's not talk about Qunaris !

Yep. It's the reason they are doing it which bothers me too - to cater for those with a lack of imigination who need everything spelling out or doing for them in the game.

I don't need my PC to talk, I don't need loads of changes to represent my race etc., I just need the basics and can let my imagination fill in the gaps and enjoy the gameplay. So long as I'm not filling in plot holes it doesn't really matter.

[Fnork]

I hope it makes for a better game. It'd feel a bit bland to me if say an Elven protagonist has a similar story as a human protagonist, the two races are very different. If you'd include several races as possible protagonists I can imagine it'd be one hell of a job to flesh out each story and all the distinctions depending on player choice. I'd rather have a human protagonist and the corresponding story done really well rather than have a whole slew of races to choose from with a much more generic story.

[tiberius_adamantine]

Rhiens VI wrote...

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

All of the main content would stay the same, Bioware would just have to modify a few things using methods they have already used previously.

And that's exactly what I see as a half-assed inclusion. Do it proper, or don't do it at all. I dislike usage of races for occasional "flavor". But that's just me.

Again I don't understand why you see it that way. Did you like how DAO addressed race or are you suggesting that there be entirely different storylines and quests depending on race. Building upon what the first game did is fine by me, but i don't feel it is necessary for them to try and change the major content of the game to address the issue. Simple fixes would allow them to include the other races, make them unique enough for the roleplaying we want from Bioware, and allow Bioware to maintain its story. Each race is plausible in a special forces group but the differences in perspective would be more than just "occasional flavor" to the people who want it, it would be an entire experience.

[tiberius_adamantine]

Fnork wrote...
I'd rather have a human protagonist and the corresponding story done really well rather than have a whole slew of races to choose from with a much more generic story.

Racial selection wouldn't affect the game in that way. What would change is origin (although as pointed out it will be referenced only), appearance, racial abilities (minor but there), and more importantly how characters react to you. For the last one, you would most likely be dealing with the exact same people only the dialogue might change a bit. It wouldn't necessarily change for all characters or all conversations but it would allow us a crucial role-playing element.

[Mantaal]

nightscrawl wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

You talking to the Wow generation of players. They think Roleplaying is -killing countless Enemys for no reason and get Epixx- You only need to be a Human with flashy animations for that. 

Just so you know, since you are ignorant on the subject, WoW has dedicated ROLE PLAY servers for people to engage in RP content. Since the game doesn't actually support this via feedback for your RP, the servers basically exist as a place for like-minded RPers to get together in a mostly supportive environment. In fact, many non-RP players praise the RP servers for their friendliness. It's very much a group effort with people creating backgrounds for their characters and also guilds that engage in elaborate story lines within the context of the Azeroth lore and environment. There are also fan sites and other supportive content to help those players with ideas.

I was playing on a so called Roleplay server. There was no different to others since Blizzard didnt made any rules there. The same "Giv me Epixx!!!11" ppls there. Alot more then some very few roleplayers. 

But that wasnt even the point of my comment.  

[SpunkyMonkey]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

Fnork wrote...
I'd rather have a human protagonist and the corresponding story done really well rather than have a whole slew of races to choose from with a much more generic story.

Racial selection wouldn't affect the game in that way. What would change is origin (although as pointed out it will be referenced only), appearance, racial abilities (minor but there), and more importantly how characters react to you. For the last one, you would most likely be dealing with the exact same people only the dialogue might change a bit. It wouldn't necessarily change for all characters or all conversations but it would allow us a crucial role-playing element.

Even those changes wouldn't be essential though. As I've said before people can react to your job-role as opposed  to race, and there's no reason why an elf or dwarf can't have been born or raised amongst humans.

For me the only essential changes would be visually.

[Rhiens VI]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

And that's exactly what I see as a half-assed inclusion. Do it proper, or don't do it at all. I dislike usage of races for occasional "flavor". But that's just me.

Again I don't understand why you see it that way. Did you like how DAO addressed race or are you suggesting that there be entirely different storylines and quests depending on race.

I found DAO's handling of race okay'ish, given the great excuse of Grey Wardens accepting absolutely everyone.

But DAO is irrelevant, because everything depends on the setting and the story. DA:I will have a different story, and from what we know so far (Inquisition and all), it leaves less space for racial diversity. Hence, doing it right for the given story is not doing it at all, i.e. taking non-humans out.

Each race is plausible in a special forces group

No, it depends on the group.

Modifié par Rhiens VI, 07 février 2013 - 11:13 .

[Rhiens VI]

Mantaal wrote...

But that wasnt even the point of my comment.  

What was the point of your "wow generation" comment, then? Insulting people?

[Yumichika]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Yumichika wrote...

I wasn't here in a while but i agree with SpunkyMonkey and Sutekh, Technology were very limited years ago but it's very different now.

Bioware decided to create a world a complete one. They can't jump from the origin full of potential to u will be forced to play as human no matter what cause humans make the world. The other races are useless and they don't deserve any sort of consideration. Specially in a medieval fantasy world.

To me it's simple, if they want to go with humans then they better erase all the other races without exception. Nobody forced them to write a scenario about inquisition. They could come with whatever to make us discover more about that world.

Now it's more of a caricatura. Chantry, Templars, Inquisition almost all now became the model of the medieval Europe. We can't talk anymore about darkspawns, Elves and dwarves doesn't make sens anymore. Let's not talk about Qunaris !

Yep. It's the reason they are doing it which bothers me too - to cater for those with a lack of imigination who need everything spelling out or doing for them in the game.

I don't need my PC to talk, I don't need loads of changes to represent my race etc., I just need the basics and can let my imagination fill in the gaps and enjoy the gameplay. So long as I'm not filling in plot holes it doesn't really matter.

The Elven race has a great background and is very different from what we usually have in other games, books, comics and movies. They can do something with them, and something has to be done. Imagine how people will react when u cross them, the hate and non respect that would be awesome. For once a hated hero who can change the world and disapear without waiting any recognition.

The dwarves as they are shorter it can be a bit more complicated but not impossible. As they are a very few on the surface people will always be curious about them. And they are great warriors.

Thanks to bioware for introducing characters such as Sten, Oghren, Bianca, Varric, Fenris, Merril; And also making us discovering their living places, culture in Origin. To be honest DA human world is not surprising too close to the reality and less fantasy.

[Dutchess]

^Although I agree that the elven background is interesting, I wouldn't say it's unique and so different from what we see in other games. The situation of the elves in The Witcher (books and games) is pretty similar to the elves in DA, with the Scio'tael as actively fighting Dalish and city elves that live the life of humans but in worse circumstances.

[tiberius_adamantine]

Rhiens VI wrote...

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

And that's exactly what I see as a half-assed inclusion. Do it proper, or don't do it at all. I dislike usage of races for occasional "flavor". But that's just me.

Again I don't understand why you see it that way. Did you like how DAO addressed race or are you suggesting that there be entirely different storylines and quests depending on race.

I found DAO's handling of race okay'ish, given the great excuse of Grey Wardens accepting absolutely everyone.

But DAO is irrelevant, because everything depends on the setting and the story. DA:I will have a different story, and from what we know so far (Inquisition and all), it leaves less space for racial diversity. Hence, doing it right for the given story is not doing it at all, i.e. taking non-humans out.

Each race is plausible in a special forces group

No, it depends on the group.

Special forces recruit primarily based on skill and not race. Howe's death squad had non-humans, antivan crows have non-humans, tallis is a non-human qunari assassain, grey wardens have all races, mercenaries and criminals can have non-humans. Having the right skills is all it would take to have a non-human in the inquisition. A special forces group might also recuit non-humans because racial tension and mistrust does exist so there are certain problems which might be better handled by a non-human.

[Mantaal]

Rhiens VI wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

But that wasnt even the point of my comment.  

What was the point of your "wow generation" comment, then? Insulting people?

No. You feel insulted? Im sorry.

[Sutekh]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

Special forces recruit primarily based on skill and not race. Howe's death squad had non-humans, antivan crows have non-humans, tallis is a non-human qunari assassain, grey wardens have all races, mercenaries and criminals can have non-humans. Having the right skills is all it would take to have a non-human in the inquisition. A special forces group might also recuit non-humans because racial tension and mistrust does exist so there are certain problems which might be better handled by a non-human.

It very much depends on what exactly is the Inquisition. Since we know very little about it, there's no point in arguing whether or not a non-human could fit in. We also don't know if the Inquisition in itself is the reason for human-only, plot-wise.

But, for the sake of discussion and as an example, let's say the Inquisition is strongly tied to the Chantry. Then you couldn't have Dalish, because their hatred of the Chantry is deep and ancient. Or it would have to be a renegade Dalish, but then the problem would be that this very particular, special background would be forced on the player, who would then be unable to roleplay their Dalish the way they want to (same goes with "the protag was adopted by humans").

Consider both actual Inquisitions (the first one and the Spanish one), or the historical Templars. You couldn't have moors or jewish there, even as main soldiers, because they were strongly founded on Catholic principles. Or any intelligence agency, or even law enforcement, which first requirement is nationality.

In Thedas, you have the Legion of the Dead, who, despite its motto "The legion accept all", only accept dwarves. Loghain's Night Elves (The Stolen Throne) is only made of... elves.

Just examples, but there are many special forces who are quite selective and need more than skill to recruit. Not all of them are made of mercenaries.

Also, what is Howe's death squad?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

In regards to the whole conversation about not having non-humans in the Inquisition... if it turns out it can't be the case, then will none of our companions be non-humans?

In DA:O, not every member of our party was a Warden, but given that it sounds like we will operating within the Inquisition's jurisdiction, instead of just being a lone wolf, then would they be willing to just let an agent of their's working primarily with people who would not make the Inquisition's "cut?"

[Yumichika]

Sutekh wrote...

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

Special forces recruit primarily based on skill and not race. Howe's death squad had non-humans, antivan crows have non-humans, tallis is a non-human qunari assassain, grey wardens have all races, mercenaries and criminals can have non-humans. Having the right skills is all it would take to have a non-human in the inquisition. A special forces group might also recuit non-humans because racial tension and mistrust does exist so there are certain problems which might be better handled by a non-human.

It very much depends on what exactly is the Inquisition. Since we know very little about it, there's no point in arguing whether or not a non-human could fit in. We also don't know if the Inquisition in itself is the reason for human-only, plot-wise.

But, for the sake of discussion and as an example, let's say the Inquisition is strongly tied to the Chantry. Then you couldn't have Dalish, because their hatred of the Chantry is deep and ancient. Or it would have to be a renegade Dalish, but then the problem would be that this very particular, special background would be forced on the player, who would then be unable to roleplay their Dalish the way they want to (same goes with "the protag was adopted by humans").

Consider both actual Inquisitions (the first one and the Spanish one), or the historical Templars. You couldn't have moors or jewish there, even as main soldiers, because they were strongly founded on Catholic principles. Or any intelligence agency, or even law enforcement, which first requirement is nationality.

In Thedas, you have the Legion of the Dead, who, despite its motto "The legion accept all", only accept dwarves. Loghain's Night Elves (The Stolen Throne) is only made of... elves.

Just examples, but there are many special forces who are quite selective and need more than skill to recruit. Not all of them are made of mercenaries.

Also, what is Howe's death squad?

I completly agree with tiberius_adamantine.
What i believe in Sutekh is that they can make an open world. They start with that. DA3 is expected, more than expected! So why they choose to move to a scenario which will only allows humans? They could come back with darkspawn or renegats blood mages, Qunaris or anything else that will allow the player to choose among the races.
Well it's too late we have to go with inquisition, ok! Great deal but why could we not choose to be a renegate and then choose the race u wanna play?
I can't help myself feeling that Bioware is regressing. DA3 Origin will be great but with DA2 and the movie i think they wanna go with a new way. And if that includes not being able to choose freely who u wanna be as in Origin. I'll clearly yell... Hell no!

The problem remains Origin, we can't help ourselves thinking about that amazing classic.