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[Rawgrim]

Riknas wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The Fort Drakon bit was ONE instance, though. To be fair, that instance also inclued the guards failing to recognize the warden and alistair s traveling companions (am sure they had a description by then). In DA2 there are about 100 instances. So, yes, its worse. one mistake is excusable. 100 isn t.

You know what's great for supporting an argument? Ridiculous amounts of exaggeration. That's good.

I stand corrected. It was only 74 times where the guards failed to notice me using Blood Magic.

[Sutekh]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Fort Drakon bit was ONE instance, though. To be fair, that instance also inclued the guards failing to recognize the warden and alistair s traveling companions (am sure they had a description by then). In DA2 there are about 100 instances. So, yes, its worse. one mistake is excusable. 100 isn t.

Yes, it's worse, we agree on that 100%. I wasn't comparing them and even less saying they do it equally wrong.

My point: DA2's reactivity failures are completely irrelevant to DAO's race acknowlegment (or lack thereof) and the context of "does player's race objectively make a difference in-game" and all that jazz.

Modifié par Sutekh, 28 mai 2013 - 03:23 .

[Bleachrude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trendy has nothing to do with it. It's an issue of personal preference, and the enjoyment some have in playing as a fictional race. Some players have stated they aren't going to bother with Inquisition because they don't prefer to play as humans in fantasy games, while people like me are willing to wait and see if there's something that tips the balance for us to purchase and play Inquisition. As it stands, I'm willing to hear more about the new Dragon Age before writing it off completely, but if I'm being honest, I'm not really on the side of actually purchasing it. I'm willing to wait and see, though.

And I call shenanigans on this...

I've actually PLAYED the gold box games and the infinity engine games and there was absolutely NO difference in the narrative between a human or elf or dwarved protoganist.

There's this weird idea that there is some deep roleplaying  with having different races but I look back at those games and the only difference is the mechanical one (elves made better mages, dwarves better fighters).

The worlds themselves treat the players as the same no matter the race they were. Skyrim is another example where even though your race should make a big deal, the game pretty much ignores it except for a couple of quests.

[Sutekh]

Bleachrude wrote...

There's this weird idea that there is some deep roleplaying  with having different races but I look back at those games and the only difference is the mechanical one (elves made better mages, dwarves better fighters).

Thing is, not everything needs to be acknowledged by the game to be important roleplaying-wise. I have yet to see a game who does make a significant objective difference based on races (apart from V:tM Bloodlines and the Clans), but the experience is different. It's nothing but headcanon, but it's important headcanon for some.

So, yeah, objectively, not a big deal. Subjectively, though, can be quite important and roleplaying is all about subjectivity and perception. Saying races don't count is equivalent to saying gender doesn't either. Or CC. Or anything, really, that allows you to empathize with the PC and make them a little more "yours".

This said, different backgrounds instead of races can be just as fine, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe less exotic and out there, less "fantasy", but chances are the proposed backgrounds will be as remote from my true self and real life as elves and dwarves.

Modifié par Sutekh, 28 mai 2013 - 05:03 .

[Melca36]

An interesting Dragon Age Confession came up that actually relates to this topic.



http://dragonageconf...-dwarf-in-real

Turns out that some people do have reasons for why they play humans.

Modifié par Melca36, 28 mai 2013 - 05:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trendy has nothing to do with it. It's an issue of personal preference, and the enjoyment some have in playing as a fictional race. Some players have stated they aren't going to bother with Inquisition because they don't prefer to play as humans in fantasy games, while people like me are willing to wait and see if there's something that tips the balance for us to purchase and play Inquisition. As it stands, I'm willing to hear more about the new Dragon Age before writing it off completely, but if I'm being honest, I'm not really on the side of actually purchasing it. I'm willing to wait and see, though. 

And I call shenanigans on this...

I've actually PLAYED the gold box games and the infinity engine games and there was absolutely NO difference in the narrative between a human or elf or dwarved protoganist.

In other words, you call 'shenanigans' because you personally don't think the racial options mattered, while numerous other people did?

Bleachrude wrote...

There's this weird idea that there is some deep roleplaying  with having different races but I look back at those games and the only difference is the mechanical one (elves made better mages, dwarves better fighters).

The worlds themselves treat the players as the same no matter the race they were. Skyrim is another example where even though your race should make a big deal, the game pretty much ignores it except for a couple of quests. 

You're welcome to peruse this entire thread to read all the posts from the people who disagree with you, and don't share your opinion on the matter.

[Lau Maru]

personally I would prefer the choice of various races, given possible replay value in that alone, but if it's strictly humans just gonna have to deal. But I must inquire on just exactly WHY do the humans get such a large office? Elcor smell funny...

[Conduit0]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trendy has nothing to do with it. It's an issue of personal preference, and the enjoyment some have in playing as a fictional race. Some players have stated they aren't going to bother with Inquisition because they don't prefer to play as humans in fantasy games, while people like me are willing to wait and see if there's something that tips the balance for us to purchase and play Inquisition. As it stands, I'm willing to hear more about the new Dragon Age before writing it off completely, but if I'm being honest, I'm not really on the side of actually purchasing it. I'm willing to wait and see, though. 

And I call shenanigans on this...

I've actually PLAYED the gold box games and the infinity engine games and there was absolutely NO difference in the narrative between a human or elf or dwarved protoganist.

In other words, you call 'shenanigans' because you personally don't think the racial options mattered, while numerous other people did?

Bleachrude wrote...

There's this weird idea that there is some deep roleplaying  with having different races but I look back at those games and the only difference is the mechanical one (elves made better mages, dwarves better fighters).

The worlds themselves treat the players as the same no matter the race they were. Skyrim is another example where even though your race should make a big deal, the game pretty much ignores it except for a couple of quests. 

You're welcome to peruse this entire thread to read all the posts from the people who disagree with you, and don't share your opinion on the matter.

Its not a matter of opinion, he is factually correct, racial choice is pure window dressing in most games. Now you're certainly free to have your own preferences, but saying you're not going to play a game for the sole reason that it lacks your prefered cosmetic choice is silly no matter how you look at it.

[Conduit0]

Lau Maru wrote...

personally I would prefer the choice of various races, given possible replay value in that alone, but if it's strictly humans just gonna have to deal. But I must inquire on just exactly WHY do the humans get such a large office? Elcor smell funny...

I believe a dev said before that they had to spend quite a bit of development time reworking Frostbite and creating the tools they would need to make the game, so they chose to cut racial choice out of the game as it was the most resource intensive thing they could cut without effecting the quality of the game as a whole.

[Lau Maru]

Elcor still smell

[kinderschlager]

Conduit0 wrote...

Lau Maru wrote...

personally I would prefer the choice of various races, given possible replay value in that alone, but if it's strictly humans just gonna have to deal. But I must inquire on just exactly WHY do the humans get such a large office? Elcor smell funny...

I believe a dev said before that they had to spend quite a bit of development time reworking Frostbite and creating the tools they would need to make the game, so they chose to cut racial choice out of the game as it was the most resource intensive thing they could cut without effecting the quality of the game as a whole.

so...basically they where being lazy?

perfect game+longer wait beat expidited PoS every time

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Just like you and me, people don't often work for free. If adding races into the game added an extra 6/12/18 months more of development time, it would increase the budget of the game. This would mean content would either have to be cut elsewhere or they would have had to sell more unit and/or make more revenue.

Dead Space 3 is a perfect example of this happening. It was announced midway through the game's development that, due to the amount of resources needed to recoup its expenses, it would need to sell over 5 million game units to break even. What we wound up getting wasn't a horror-based game like the original, but a generic shooter-in-space designed to appeal to widest market possible... coupled with in-game, SP microtransactions, to boot.

I know people on these forums love saying "take all the time you need to make a great game" (or, conversely, "you are lazy for not doing X, Y, Z), but time is money. If they took forever, not only would they have a game that never ships, but it would be a game that either loses tons of money or would be forced to compromise what it is in order to chase what marketing research says would move the most units in the first three weeks.

[LobselVith8]

Conduit0 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're welcome to peruse this entire thread to read all the posts from the people who disagree with you, and don't share your opinion on the matter. 

Its not a matter of opinion, he is factually correct, racial choice is pure window dressing in most games.

There is post after post in this thread explaining why that isn't the case for some fans, how they felt the racial options shaped the story for them, how they immersed themselves in their respective characters, and why racial options appealed to them. You might not care about racial options, but I don't see any reason to act like your opinion on the matter is a fact for everyone else when this entire thread proves that isn't the case.

Conduit0 wrote...

Now you're certainly free to have your own preferences, but saying you're not going to play a game for the sole reason that it lacks your prefered cosmetic choice is silly no matter how you look at it. 

People saying that they aren't going to play a game that wouldn't appeal to them is silly? That makes absolutely no sense. People buy games that they find entertainment in; if people aren't interested in Andrastian humans as protagonists, or prefer to play fantasy games where they can play as fictional characters, I don't see any reason to denigrate them.

[jackygates]

I am kind of sad that I can't be a elf or dwarf like in DA:O.. but one thing and one thing that will make me feel a lot better about DA3 and being a Pink skin... ugh Humon would that story is epic more so than DA2!

[kinderschlager]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Just like you and me, people don't often work for free. If adding races into the game added an extra 6/12/18 months more of development time, it would increase the budget of the game. This would mean content would either have to be cut elsewhere or they would have had to sell more unit and/or make more revenue.

Dead Space 3 is a perfect example of this happening. It was announced midway through the game's development that, due to the amount of resources needed to recoup its expenses, it would need to sell over 5 million game units to break even. What we wound up getting wasn't a horror-based game like the original, but a generic shooter-in-space designed to appeal to widest market possible... coupled with in-game, SP microtransactions, to boot.

I know people on these forums love saying "take all the time you need to make a great game" (or, conversely, "you are lazy for not doing X, Y, Z), but time is money. If they took forever, not only would they have a game that never ships, but it would be a game that either loses tons of money or would be forced to compromise what it is in order to chase what marketing research says would move the most units in the first three weeks.

don't even get me started on DS3. that's how you ruin a series

[Conduit0]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is post after post in this thread explaining why that isn't the case for some fans, how they felt the racial options shaped the story for them, how they immersed themselves in their respective characters, and why racial options appealed to them. You might not care about racial options, but I don't see any reason to act like your opinion on the matter is a fact for everyone else when this entire thread proves that isn't the case.

What you're stating is opinion, what I said was fact. Their opinion is that racial choice effects the story,  but the fact is, it does not, you get the same story and the same content regardless of race.

LobselVith8 wrote...

People saying that they aren't going to play a game that wouldn't appeal to them is silly? That makes absolutely no sense. People buy games that they find entertainment in; if people aren't interested in Andrastian humans as protagonists, or prefer to play fantasy games where they can play as fictional characters, I don't see any reason to denigrate them.

Certainly not, but what is silly is the assertion that they can't immerse themselves or enjoy a game solely because they have to play as a human. Its like saying you can't enjoy a roadtrip with your friends if you don't get to choose which car you take. It seems to me that when people learned DA3 won't be DAO 2.0 they decided to throw a trantrum because they didn't get what they wanted and are now refusing to give DA3 a chance to stand or fall on its own merits.

[Dutchess]

Conduit0 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is post after post in this thread explaining why that isn't the case for some fans, how they felt the racial options shaped the story for them, how they immersed themselves in their respective characters, and why racial options appealed to them. You might not care about racial options, but I don't see any reason to act like your opinion on the matter is a fact for everyone else when this entire thread proves that isn't the case.

What you're stating is opinion, what I said was fact. Their opinion is that racial choice effects the story,  but the fact is, it does not, you get the same story and the same content regardless of race.

It does affect the story and you do get different content in certain sections based on your origin. Revisiting Orzammar as an exiled dwarven noble defnitely gives you different reactions from the dwarves, including prominent characters like Harrowmont and Behlen. Furthermore the entire context of the Orzammar king quest shifts when you play a dwarf noble or castless, compared to a human or an elf. I don't know why you dismiss these aspects as meaningless, because I valued and enjoyed them greatly. The same goes for the city elf origin, the mage origin, and the human noble. The Dalish origin influences the least, because you don't visit your old clan for Nature of the Beast, but still you have the immediately respect and trust of the Dalish when you arrive, unlike the other Wardens.

[Allan Schumacher]

DAO does a better job of reacting to player character race than the Infinity Engine and Gold Box games did.

[Conduit0]

renjility wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is post after post in this thread explaining why that isn't the case for some fans, how they felt the racial options shaped the story for them, how they immersed themselves in their respective characters, and why racial options appealed to them. You might not care about racial options, but I don't see any reason to act like your opinion on the matter is a fact for everyone else when this entire thread proves that isn't the case.

What you're stating is opinion, what I said was fact. Their opinion is that racial choice effects the story,  but the fact is, it does not, you get the same story and the same content regardless of race.

It does affect the story and you do get different content in certain sections based on your origin. Revisiting Orzammar as an exiled dwarven noble defnitely gives you different reactions from the dwarves, including prominent characters like Harrowmont and Behlen. Furthermore the entire context of the Orzammar king quest shifts when you play a dwarf noble or castless, compared to a human or an elf. I don't know why you dismiss these aspects as meaningless, because I valued and enjoyed them greatly. The same goes for the city elf origin, the mage origin, and the human noble. The Dalish origin influences the least, because you don't visit your old clan for Nature of the Beast, but still you have the immediately respect and trust of the Dalish when you arrive, unlike the other Wardens.

The quests are exactly the same, regardless of casteless or noble dwarf, city or dalish elf, a few minor changes in dialogue to acknowledge your race and origin choice does not constitute a change in story. I'm not dismissing people's opinions, I'm simply seperating facts from opinions. I enjoyed playing through multiple races and origin choices my self, but I realized that most of my enjoyment playing the different races came from the changes in what I imagined or head canoned as opposed to actual changes in the game.

[Ravensword]

I wanted to be a Qunari and spread the Qun across Thedas.

[Drone696]

lol

[Luiren]

While I'm a little saddened that additional races aren't available, it's not a deal breaker. I imagine that only dealing with one race saves a lot of time and money when making such a huge game. If I can be so bold, I'm willing to sacrifice the different race option for a more in-depth development of Dragon Age 3.

[Allan Schumacher]

but I realized that most of my enjoyment playing the different races came from the changes in what I imagined or head canoned as opposed to actual changes in the game.

It should be noted that for some, this is still a significant part of what they enjoy about the choice, even if the game itself doesn't really reflect it from a narrative perspective.

[Conduit0]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

but I realized that most of my enjoyment playing the different races came from the changes in what I imagined or head canoned as opposed to actual changes in the game.

It should be noted that for some, this is still a significant part of what they enjoy about the choice, even if the game itself doesn't really reflect it from a narrative perspective.

I certainly understand that, but my point is that I find the idea of people claiming they're refusing to play DA3 solely because it lacks a race option, a little ridiculous.

[IndomitusRex]

In DAO I favoured the Human origins anyway (though I did enjoy Dwarves), so in that regard it's not a huge let-down for me.  From a story-telling standpoint I can understand why a Human would take center stage, as the conflict between Mages and Templars seems to be at the heart of DA3.  Mages and Templars are a Human concern; there are no Dwarven Mages, and there's already enough bad-blood betwen Humans and Elves for the Mage-Templar conflict to significantly escalate things.

Having a more defined main character can definitely be a good thing.  Commander Shepard is an awesome character, who could not have been the same if Shepard could have been a Turian, a Salarian, or whatever.

Hawke was no Commander Shepard, unfortunately.  I feel like I owe DA2 another playthrough before I could speak too much on that, but I just didn't feel like Hawke had the same impact that Shepard did.  I guess the scale had something to do with it; Shepard was fighting to defend the whole frigging galaxy, while Hawke spent his whole time in some city we'd never heard of before DA2.