3855 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Furthermore, how well did DA:O sell compared to Mass Effect 2-3?  (ME1 was 360 exclusive for a long time so it probly ought to be disqualified)  I'm not sure.

DAO sold more copies than ME and ME2 (even considering the PS3 version), I'm not sure if it sold more than ME3, but I think EA/BIoware would've made an announcement if ME3 sold more copies than DAO.

[Palipride47]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Project Eternity made 4 million dollars with 74,000 backers. 

Right, and those are well within "niche market" numbers and well below an AAA game budget.  Chris Avellone says as much in every interview.  

/contributed $60

Maybe this chart will help get our point across:

[Palipride47]

hhh89 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Furthermore, how well did DA:O sell compared to Mass Effect 2-3?  (ME1 was 360 exclusive for a long time so it probly ought to be disqualified)  I'm not sure.

DAO sold more copies than ME and ME2 (even considering the PS3 version), I'm not sure if it sold more than ME3, but I think EA/BIoware would've made an announcement if ME3 sold more copies than DAO.

But we have to take release dates into account.

[upsettingshorts]

Palipride47 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Project Eternity made 4 million dollars with 74,000 backers. 

Right, and those are well within "niche market" numbers and well below an AAA game budget.  Chris Avellone says as much in every interview.  

/contributed $60

Maybe this chart will help get our point across:

[Chart showing DA2 did poorly in sales compared to DAO]

...Dragon Age 2 was rushed out the door in 11 months, less time than BioWare had to work on any other game in its history.  Of course it did less well?

...als I should point out the 75,000 backers Project Eternity got would hardly even register on that chart. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:36 .

[The Elder King]

Palipride47 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Furthermore, how well did DA:O sell compared to Mass Effect 2-3?  (ME1 was 360 exclusive for a long time so it probly ought to be disqualified)  I'm not sure.

DAO sold more copies than ME and ME2 (even considering the PS3 version), I'm not sure if it sold more than ME3, but I think EA/BIoware would've made an announcement if ME3 sold more copies than DAO.

But we have to take release dates into account.

In what sense?

[Palipride47]

hhh89 wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Furthermore, how well did DA:O sell compared to Mass Effect 2-3?  (ME1 was 360 exclusive for a long time so it probly ought to be disqualified)  I'm not sure.

DAO sold more copies than ME and ME2 (even considering the PS3 version), I'm not sure if it sold more than ME3, but I think EA/BIoware would've made an announcement if ME3 sold more copies than DAO.

But we have to take release dates into account.

In what sense?

Ohhh, I thought you wrote DAO sold more than ME3.....my bad.

[WhiteThunder]

Tarathelion wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

I will diagree on the bolded point, in that it may be your play style, but not mine. If they can smush them together nicely (which I think DAO does) then, sure, I'm 100% for it. 

If they can't, then I will relegate it to whatever they chose (and if I can't enjoy it with my more "old-school immersion" style, I'll stop).

Yeah but here's the thing.

Why is BioWare the one that has to deliver this approach, if - as Fast Jimmy says - DA2 is broadly the way BioWare wants to go whats stopping any of you guys from saying, "Oh well" and hopping over to Project Eternity/Wasteland 2?  They could use the support.

I don't think Bioware has to do anything. I think it would be prudent to do so.

And if I cannot deal with it, I will leave, and I may be bitter about it, but I'm not going to pretend they did it because Bioware/EA/Gaider and Co. hates me specifically and are cackling as they count their piles of cash about how nicely they crushed the hopes of "old school RPGers."

And I won't pretend your style is less "legitimate" than mine. It stinks of nostalgia-based pretension that gives all old school RPGers a bad name. And i receive it even from others who play like me base on the priniciple that my parents had sex too late for me to play Ultima. 

Well...you could flip it around too. A fanbase who has supported Bioware and bought their products since they started making games, suddenly gets alienated because Bioware now wants to make action games instead, but still claims they are making rpgs to make sure their old fanbase buys some.

But that is the nature of the gaming industry, and if we don't like it, we can take our money and go support Project Eternity (never mind that I think they are just throiwng old school RPG names around to make us quiver in our loins and throw our money at them <_<) or something else.

ME3 got the things they wanted when they yelled loud enough, but they yelled loudly enough with ONE VOICE. If our voices are so disparate, they are not going to abandon one base for another (now that they essentially have two, with some people, like me, caught in the middle)

Have you never heard of Obsidian Entertainment? They're a pretty established studio.  Admittedly, it is kind of unbelievable that all of the leading lights of RPG design in the 90s are working together under one roof, but they were all working together in the 90s, too. They basically reformed Black Isle Studios when they brought in Tim Cain last year.  They are legit as heck.

Yes thay have talent but they don't seem to have resources to make games they would like to make. They usually just do games for other developers/publishers like Bethesda with Fallout. Project Eternity is hopefully gonna be a good game but not necessarly a commercial success. Its not gonna be a Triple A game, its more like a niche game. They got over 4 milions to do it. The Witcher 2 cost around 10 milions to do in Poland where work cost are significantly cheaper. A bioware game is probably much more expensive to make. So we need to sdjust our expectations

That's true, we should expect many, many, many, more features from a studio with Bioware's budget and resources.  Instead, we are receiving fewer.

[upsettingshorts]

WhiteThunder wrote...

That's true, we should expect many, many, many, more features from a studio with Bioware's budget and resources.  Instead, we are receiving fewer.

You don't know that about DA3 yet, and as I said, DA2 was rushed and didn't get the full benefit of BioWare's resources.

Starting to repeat ourselves again in this thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .

[Blastback]

Last I saw, Origins had still sold more than ME2. By a decent number. I don't know about 3 though. And I think all of that was without factoring digital sales.

[labargegrrrl]

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The option for The Warden to say he didn't believe in the Maker was present in both Origins and Awakening. My Surana Warden said the Maker wasn't a deity he followed, condemned the Chantry over the Dales, told Leliana that Andraste was simply a woman, and informed Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. I'd say atheism as we know it was present by virtue of being able to not believe in "god."

Furthermore, the player had to play a religious Andrastian with Hawke, who says he hopes the Maker guides Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) and believes Leandra is with the Maker.

Whelp there goes that playthrough... *sigh*

I did a similar playthtough onece.The only way to improve that playthrough is to have a Dalish mage Warden.
Seriously though, why would you care about it? If the game gives the players the option to make a character who doesn't believe in the Maker, and that Andraste was a woman, it means that the creators of the game are fine in giving the option. And the Chantry was responsible (though I think the responsibility is shared with the elves) of what happened to the Dales. Humanity shown that regardless the mage's position in the society and the deity they believed, that they have to impose their rule or their religion to the elves, and make them non-equal to humans (either as slaves or second-class citizens). I'd like to have the option to reform human society in Thedas.

Oh, I'm sorry,  I wasn't very clear there. I was moping over the dialogue spoilers, not the religious beliefs as I've never played a suranna mage before. One of those moments that makes me wish I hadn't read a certain thread at a point and time.

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

That's true, we should expect many, many, many, more features from a studio with Bioware's budget and resources.  Instead, we are receiving fewer.

You don't know that about DA3 yet, and as I said, DA2 was rushed and didn't get the full benefit of BioWare's resources.

Starting to repeat ourselves again in this thread.

And don't I remember you defending the release date?  Though that was in a discussion about bugs.

[Fast Jimmy]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

Chasing the blonde refers to going after a high risk, high reward goal. If many people go for it, only one can win and even that one can fail themselves, since it is a high risk proposition.

Going after the designs of DA:O or BG is the safe choice - the games have huge fanbases, they are crticially acclaimed as some of the best RPGs in the history of RPGs and are still talked about regularly as pivotal when discussing the history of video games.[/quote]

If the fanbases for that style of RPGs is so huge, how come the backers of Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity are only in the tens of thousands?

Furthermore, how well did DA:O sell compared to Mass Effect 2-3?  (ME1 was 360 exclusive for a long time so it probly ought to be disqualified)  I'm not sure. [/quote]

To address your first point, Kickstarter is still a very new, untested and unknown venue. I have tons of gamer friends who had never heard of it as recently as last month. They spend as much (if not more, since I am on Gamefly now) on games as I do and have pretty similar game preferences. In fact, one friend I had to introduce to Kickstarter to pledge PE was the one who introduced me to Baldur's Gate. Not to mention people are paying now for a game TO BE MADE. While that may also entail them getting a copy in the distant future, people may say "I'm not going to spend a dime for a game I won't get to play or see for years." And, despite all of these possible reasons NOT to pledge to Kickstarter, there are still more than a few pledgers who have contributed more than some of us make in a fiscal quarter, just to see a game like that being made.

DA:O is Bioware's most successful game to date, at least according to the only resources we have available such as Wikipedia and VGChartz. DA:O sold roughly 5 million copies, while DA2 sold around 2, ME2 sold around 4 and ME3 sold 4.5 (but, given the ending fiasco where copies were returned in droves and retailers like Amazon were offering full refunds to consumers - which are passed back in various fashions to the developer, is a debatable number in itself, but we'll let it stand). But, even with ME3 creeping close, add into the mix the Expack of Awakening and numerous DLC and DA:O is, by far, their highest selling game to date, as well as their highest rated games among fans and professional crtiics.

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

Going after the designs of other genres outside of RPGs, trying to break ground on making interactive cinema games (which have been a struggling, if not completely dead in the water, genre) and by trying to use action combat that violates the preferences of a portion of your fanbase and also pales in comparisson to actual action game titles, which other companies do immeasurably better, is the very definition of high risk. [/quote]

I don't believe that's what they're doing.  I don't think "cinema games" as you describe them and "cinematic RPGs" are the same thing or ever really tried to be.  My argument is that BioWare has, effectively, always been making cinematic RPGs only they're much better at it now having slowly progressed in that direction since BG2, to the point it's started to anger the people who played their games as traditional RPGs. [/quote]

That may be the case, but while they may have been creating a more cinematic RPG, it still accomodated those who wanted a more minamalist experience, but still have a great story and good mechanics. If acheiving what they think is their pinnacle results in alienating fans who were previously content, that's a risky manuever, no matter how good you are at what you do. 

Is risk inherently bad or evil? No. But it does mean they chasing the blone. If devs come into a thread like this and say "This is our decision, we can respect that some people don't like it and understand if this means a no-purchase" then that means they are not taking the most risk-adverse approach. Again, that's not bad... but it means they are moving more towards the "betting the house" mentality on DA3, rather than the "play it safe" mentality. 

[upsettingshorts]

Blastback wrote...

And don't I remember you defending the release date?  Though that was in a discussion about bugs.

From way back when it was released?  Could be.  Never said I've never been wrong.  Certainly not recently though.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Is risk inherently bad or evil? No. But it does mean they chasing the blone. If devs come into a thread like this and say "This is our decision, we can respect that some people don't like it and understand if this means a no-purchase" then that means they are not taking the most risk-adverse approach. Again, that's not bad... but it means they are moving more towards the "betting the house" mentality on DA3, rather than the "play it safe" mentality. 

Have they not been doing this consistently for some time now?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:42 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

The only way to improve that playthrough is to have a Dalish mage Warden.

A Dalish mage protagonist would be interesting. I remember Addai writing a story about a Dalish mage Warden, and it reminded me of Dune and the Freemen when the elves made her their war leader before they marched against the Blight. "The Wolf at the Edge of Camp." I really liked the concept ever since. A Dalish kwisatz haderach.

[MorningBird]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The option for The Warden to say he didn't believe in the Maker was present in both Origins and Awakening. My Surana Warden said the Maker wasn't a deity he followed, condemned the Chantry over the Dales, told Leliana that Andraste was simply a woman, and informed Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. I'd say atheism as we know it was present by virtue of being able to not believe in "god."

... Implying that there IS a diety he DOES follow?  So... not Atheist?  Because, once again, that is the only statement Gaider was making in his post: that straight up Atheism doesn't really exist in Thedas...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Furthermore, the player had to play a religious Andrastian with Hawke, who says he hopes the Maker guides Feynriel (who believes in the Creators) and believes Leandra is with the Maker.

Except, I'm fairly certain Hawke doesn't say this in EVERY circumstance.  At least, I don't recall my Hawke involving the Maker's name in anything save for a diplomatic playthrough, and you can easily chalk that up to him/her taking the religious beliefs of others into consideration when attempting to comfort someone (ex. their family.)

Having said that, claiming that Feynriel believes in the 'Creators' seems fairly baseless to me, considering how little we actually know about him.  He was living in a human city and idolized a human father.  If he believed in the Creators at all, I would say it's to the same capacity as Pol... a runaway city elf that escaped to the Dalish and is trying to learn their ways, but hasn't forgotten all they knew of the Maker.  Whether or not Feynriel is/becomes devote is anyone's guess, but if you let him leave for Tevinter, he seems keen enough to trade religions for a second/third time, so I'd hardly call him devote...

Modifié par MorningBird, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Oh, I'm sorry,  I wasn't very clear there. I was moping over the dialogue spoilers, not the religious beliefs as I've never played a suranna mage before. One of those moments that makes me wish I hadn't read a certain thread at a point and time.

Oh I see. I've jumped to conclusion too son.

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The option for The Warden to say he didn't believe in the Maker was present in both Origins and Awakening. My Surana Warden said the Maker wasn't a deity he followed, condemned the Chantry over the Dales, told Leliana that Andraste was simply a woman, and informed Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker. I'd say atheism as we know it was present by virtue of being able to not believe in "god."

I'd say your thinking is too narrow. Those statements don't make the warden an athiest in a world where s/he's battling godlike creatures and ultimately the archdemon.

[Palipride47]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Project Eternity made 4 million dollars with 74,000 backers. 

Right, and those are well within "niche market" numbers and well below an AAA game budget.  Chris Avellone says as much in every interview.  

/contributed $60

Maybe this chart will help get our point across:

[Chart showing DA2 did poorly in sales compared to DAO]

...Dragon Age 2 was rushed out the door in 11 months, less time than BioWare had to work on any other game in its history.  Of course it did less well?

*sigh*

DAO was not worked on for 5 years straight though, if that is what you want to compare.....they were beset by all kinds of issues, and DA3 has already been in preproduction longer than any Bioware game (as confirmed by Ms. Kirby soemwhere on the BSN)

The point is, that not everything "old-schoolers" like is enjoyed by ONLY OTHER OLD SCHOOLERS. When you take something out of a successful game, you better make sure only a minority of people are going to hate the change. And considering the responses were universally middling, compared to "one of the greatest RPGs" DAO, they took the gamble and lost. 

[Fast Jimmy]

labargegrrrl wrote...

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

The best I can tell, as little as possible.

And we are loving it.

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Blastback wrote...

And don't I remember you defending the release date?  Though that was in a discussion about bugs.

From way back when it was released?  Could be.  Never said I've never been wrong.  Certainly not recently though.

I know. Hence the

Just trying to bring a bit of levity.  Cause lord knows this thread could stand to be a bit more friendly...

[Palipride47]

labargegrrrl wrote...

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

Just walk away and let this thread be closed because of idiots like me deviating from the topic......

[Palipride47]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

The best I can tell, as little as possible.

And we are loving it.

Maybe we should rage on a new thread? 

Modifié par Palipride47, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .