3855 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Palipride47 wrote...

*sigh*

DAO was not worked on for 5 years straight though, if that is what you want to compare.....they were beset by all kinds of issues, and DA3 has already been in preproduction longer than any Bioware game (as confirmed by Ms. Kirby soemwhere on the BSN)

Re: DAO:  I know.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that BioWare was sold not once, but twice, during the course of DAO's problematic and long development.  I hardly think of it as a straight line of 5-7 years or progress like some occasionally claim - seriously, there were people pre-DA2 launch telling BioWare they should spend that long developing their next game again.  My only point in saying DA2 was rushed was to say that DA2 was rushed.

I hope that because DA3 is getting a proper development cycle, it will be better than both.  But it's far too early to say one way or the other.

Palipride47 wrote...

The point is, that not everything "old-schoolers" like is enjoyed by ONLY OTHER OLD SCHOOLERS. When you take something out of a successful game, you better make sure only a minority of people are going to hate the change. And considering the responses were universally middling, compared to "one of the greatest RPGs" DAO, they took the gamble and lost. 

This is where I sigh.  My point in bringing up that DA2 was rushed implies that I don't it's a good case for anything they tried to do because of the numerous issues that go along with being rushed.  On that note, if DA3 is DA2+ and it goes into a similar tank, then I'll be forced to concede your point, won't I?  But not until then.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, I'm helping contribute to this thread flying off the rails.  I suppose this post will suffice as my final word on the current off topic discussion.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Maria Caliban]

Palipride47 wrote...

Maybe this chart will help get our point across:

Your point being that Dragon Age: Origins sold well because it was a BioWare game but DA II sold poorly because people who played DA:O didn't enjoy it?

[Blastback]

What I want to hear more about are the backgrounds. how hpefully they will be more relavant than the ones in Mass Effect. I still get fustrated by how I was never able to bring up Akuze with anyone in ME2.

[Foolsfolly]

I'm not going to lie I'm disappointed.

My only hope now is that the trade-off is that we get a bunch of diverse backgrounds to choose from.

[WhiteThunder]

Blastback wrote...

Just trying to bring a bit of levity.  Cause lord knows this thread could stand to be a bit more friendly...

NO!  Anyone who doesn't utterly share my opinion is wrong and a bad person to boot.

[Jerrybnsn]

Oh well....we always have DA4 to hope for race selection. Can we have that thread "What do you hope to see in DA4 now?"

[Blastback]

WhiteThunder wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Just trying to bring a bit of levity.  Cause lord knows this thread could stand to be a bit more friendly...

NO!  Anyone who doesn't utterly share my opinion is wrong and a bad person to boot.

Shame on me!  I'm a monster!!!

Wait, what is your opinion??

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm not going to lie I'm disappointed.

My only hope now is that the trade-off is that we get a bunch of diverse backgrounds to choose from.

Right there with you.

Modifié par Blastback, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:48 .

[WhiteThunder]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Maybe this chart will help get our point across:

Your point being that Dragon Age: Origins sold well because it was a BioWare game but DA II sold poorly because people who played DA:O didn't enjoy it?

It also didn't continue to sell well because it got significantly worse reviews and terrible word of mouth.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...als I should point out the 75,000 backers Project Eternity got would hardly even register on that chart. 

That's an apples to oranges comparison.  WIth DAO and DA2 buyers, they were buying a finished game that had been heavily marketed.  With PE, the backers are funding a game that doesn't even exist yet, won't for 2 years, and received no mass market promotion at all.

The reason $4 million up front is worth so much to Obsidian is because, first, it's guaranteed, no-risk money (they have it already), and second, because they get it up front (and the time value of money makes $4 million now worth quite a bit more than $4 million two years from now).  Now, this isn't a riskless proposition for Obsidian unless that $4 million is their entire development budget, and I doubt that's the case, but the fact remains that we can't point to the 75K people (which might not even be 75K different people - the nature of Obsidian's stretch goals incentivised supporting them using multiple accounts) and think that has anything to do with the number of people who would have bought a finished game published through traditional channels.

[WhiteThunder]

Blastback wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Just trying to bring a bit of levity.  Cause lord knows this thread could stand to be a bit more friendly...

NO!  Anyone who doesn't utterly share my opinion is wrong and a bad person to boot.

Shame on me!  I'm a monster!!!

Wait, what is your opinion??

I just want to be a Elven DW Warrior...but Bioware hates me.

[Palipride47]

Blastback wrote...

What I want to hear more about are the backgrounds. how hpefully they will be more relavant than the ones in Mass Effect. I still get fustrated by how I was never able to bring up Akuze with anyone in ME2.

Don't know much about backgrounds in ME, but I would like (if this makes sense) similar reactivity that you received by being another race.

I'm a templar, I want a reaction
I'm a blood mage, DAMN IT I WANT YOU TO SCREAM AND RUN LIKE I'M EVIL IN FABLE!!!! 

[Emzamination]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Oh well....we always have DA4 to hope for race selection. Can we have that thread "What do you hope to see in DA4 now?"

We haven't even crossed Da3 yet

[labargegrrrl]

Palipride47 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

The best I can tell, as little as possible.

And we are loving it.

Maybe we should rage on a new thread? 

not necessarily.  i was just confused because one of the threads i follow because i'm interested in the topic turned into one of those threads i grab some popcorn and watch for entertainment value.  

and all i had to do was walk away to go grocery shopping!   

[deuce985]

Blastback wrote...

Last I saw, Origins had still sold more than ME2. By a decent number. I don't know about 3 though. And I think all of that was without factoring digital sales.

ME3 sold 3.5 million just a week from release. Probably safe to say, it easily surpassed DAO.

ME3 is Bioware's biggest commercial success.

Modifié par deuce985, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:52 .

[wsandista]

Emzamination wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Oh well....we always have DA4 to hope for race selection. Can we have that thread "What do you hope to see in DA4 now?"

We haven't even crossed Da3 yet

English isn't your native language is it?

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Is risk inherently bad or evil? No. But it does mean they chasing the blone. If devs come into a thread like this and say "This is our decision, we can respect that some people don't like it and understand if this means a no-purchase" then that means they are not taking the most risk-adverse approach. Again, that's not bad... but it means they are moving more towards the "betting the house" mentality on DA3, rather than the "play it safe" mentality. 

Have they not been doing this consistently for some time now?

Given that DA:O's development idea was to make a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate," their previously most successful game, I'd say... no. If they take the mindset of creating Baldur's Gate and brought it into technology that was 10 years in the future, DA:O is what you'd get. They essentially took an established design style from a successful game and brushed up the mechanics.

Going with the design choice of having an "awesome, cool," more defined main character, while using an action-based combat style more akin to Jade Empire (one of their least successful IPs, although brilliant in its story), adopting a loot/equipment system that seems to downplay the value in loot/equipment , having a free-flowing story that doesn't have singular focus until very late in the game, going with a shorter, more intense development cycle in hopes of keeping momentum going, having an interface that not only favors a subset of players (console players) but alienates others (PC users), having a dialouge-dependent game obscure the exact words that will occur in the dialouge... I could go on... 

These are all examples of how risky and experimental DA2 was. DA:O = copying past success. DA2 = taking the risky road.

DA3 is, more and more, taking the DA2 approach, which is the risky road. The DA2 road hasn't resulted in huge sales, or critical acclaim, or a Game of the Year award. Other games have. So ignoring those design elements and mindsets in favor of previously less successful ones is the very definition of introducing risk.

[Palipride47]

labargegrrrl wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

labargegrrrl wrote...

wow. i walked away from a forum about human-only pc's for a couple of hours and came back to...

what are you people even talking about?

The best I can tell, as little as possible.

And we are loving it.

Maybe we should rage on a new thread? 

not necessarily.  i was just confused because one of the threads i follow because i'm interested in the topic turned into one of those threads i grab some popcorn and watch for entertainment value.  

and all i had to do was walk away to go grocery shopping!   

All I had to was sit here and respond....but I'm going to let my last post related to the rage be the last word before I burst some head vessels and die before we even hear if the LIs will be bisexual or "set"

Modifié par Palipride47, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:54 .

[LinksOcarina]

Tarathelion wrote...

Yes thay have talent but they don't seem to have resources to make games they would like to make. They usually just do games for other developers/publishers like Bethesda with Fallout. Project Eternity is hopefully gonna be a good game but not necessarly a commercial success. Its not gonna be a Triple A game, its more like a niche game. They got over 4 milions to do it. The Witcher 2 cost around 10 milions to do in Poland where work cost are significantly cheaper. A bioware game is probably much more expensive to make. So we need to sdjust our expectations

Obsidian is almost bankrupt, honestly. A while ago they had to cancel a game for future release and delayed the
South Park title because they cou;dn't afford it.

Project Eternity may turn them into Double Fine in some ways, a private company making small games, which they should do. That doesn't make them good games, but that does keep them alive.

Hell, I did number crunching on this. A really good new IP, if its lucky, can get around 500,000 copies sold. With 72,000+ confirmed for project eternity, that is roughly 12% of the average that good  B-games make, like Kingdoms of Amalur, Dishonored, Binary Domain, and so forth. Now I say B-games because they are not AAA titles  that are untested, not bad games of course.

The reason I bring this up, is because the gaming world is facing a big change, where the second alternative for "big budget indie games" has shown itself. Make no mistake, Kickstarter is good but it is moving forward by looking back. If you pitched an isometric POV game for $2 million dollars, no publisher will take it on because there is such small return on investment for them it's pointless to do so. 

Much like the movie industry, publishers need to learn one thing, and that is to take a risk on games that won't be a major hit. Ironically EA is one of the few to do that so far with their partners program (and I would argue that Mass Effect 3 is less mainstream than people give credit, but thats another debate) and other companies,like Valve, Atlus, Aksys, NIS, and so forth have done a lot to push that as well. Of course, smaller dev teams like Obsidian need to realize that sometimes, you need to work with the publishers and realize that they are valuable in this industry.

It will eventually right itself, but publishers and developers need to work in harmony and need to work independently, so Kickstarter will help that relationship improve, if they both allow it.

And this ties into a human protagonist, because you got to remember how BioWare is story driven like most Light RPGs. You can't control everything the character is or else it would be Skyrim, would be Fallout. People need to realize that BioWare has done this since Baldurs Gate, to varying degrees. So if its a human you play as, the reason is for the story. Origins worked the way it did because the Origin stories made the beginning of the game, and small details in the middle, to shape a narrative as a blank slate. It wouldn't work in Hawke's story, and we shall see if it works in the Inquisitor story. But in the end, BioWare has made it clear that they want to tell a story, and they have the backing to do so. 


that does not make it more or less of an RPG,it just makes it a differently focused RPG over what Project Eternity is planning to be. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:55 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...als I should point out the 75,000 backers Project Eternity got would hardly even register on that chart. 

That's an apples to oranges comparison.  WIth DAO and DA2 buyers, they were buying a finished game that had been heavily marketed.  With PE, the backers are funding a game that doesn't even exist yet, won't for 2 years, and received no mass market promotion at all.

Wait, they only have ~$4m to pay their entire Orange County-based team for two years?  I thought it was one.  How big is their team? 

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Given that DA:O's development idea was to make a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate," their previously most successful game, I'd say... no. 

You misunderstand what I mean.  I mean they've literally been coming to the boards and saying, "This is our decision, we can respect that some people don't like it and understand if this means a no-purchase" for months now.  Which is what you said they'd have to do for you to accept that.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:55 .

[WhiteThunder]

deuce985 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Last I saw, Origins had still sold more than ME2. By a decent number. I don't know about 3 though. And I think all of that was without factoring digital sales.

ME3 sold 3.5 million just a week from release. Probably safe to say, it easily surpassed DAO.

Not necessarily.  There were massive returns, it wasn't available on Steam and the negative word of mouth definitely decreased the shelf life.

[Emzamination]

wsandista wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Oh well....we always have DA4 to hope for race selection. Can we have that thread "What do you hope to see in DA4 now?"

We haven't even crossed Da3 yet

English isn't your native language is it?

No, no it's not.

[Morroian]

deuce985 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Last I saw, Origins had still sold more than ME2. By a decent number. I don't know about 3 though. And I think all of that was without factoring digital sales.

ME3 sold 3.5 million just a week from release. Probably safe to say, it easily surpassed DAO.

ME3 is Bioware's biggest commercial success.

There were some anecdotal statements that ME2 sold more than DAO but no hard numbers ever appeared.

[wsandista]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...als I should point out the 75,000 backers Project Eternity got would hardly even register on that chart. 

That's an apples to oranges comparison.  WIth DAO and DA2 buyers, they were buying a finished game that had been heavily marketed.  With PE, the backers are funding a game that doesn't even exist yet, won't for 2 years, and received no mass market promotion at all.

Wait, they only have ~$4m to pay their entire Orange County-based team for two years?  I thought it was one.  How big is their team? 

I would guess that they already had some $ on hand to partially fund the game.

Emzamination wrote...

No, no it's not.

That explains quite a bit.

Modifié par wsandista, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...als I should point out the 75,000 backers Project Eternity got would hardly even register on that chart. 

That's an apples to oranges comparison.  WIth DAO and DA2 buyers, they were buying a finished game that had been heavily marketed.  With PE, the backers are funding a game that doesn't even exist yet, won't for 2 years, and received no mass market promotion at all.

Wait, they only have ~$4m to pay their entire Orange County-based team for two years?  I thought it was one.  How big is their team? 

Dude, read the rest of my comment.  Why would we assume they only have $4 million?

They raised $4 million with Kickstarter.  There's no rule that says they can't use any of their own money.  As an independent developer, that's generally how they fund their games prior to securing a publisher.

[deuce985]

WhiteThunder wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Last I saw, Origins had still sold more than ME2. By a decent number. I don't know about 3 though. And I think all of that was without factoring digital sales.

ME3 sold 3.5 million just a week from release. Probably safe to say, it easily surpassed DAO.

Not necessarily.  There were massive returns, it wasn't available on Steam and the negative word of mouth definitely decreased the shelf life.

Can you not read? It says sold and not shipped. Doesn't matter how you spin it, that's 3.5 million copies sold for both Bioware/EA. Regardless if you want to believe a bunch of loud gamers on a forum wanted to return their copies. Bioware/EA still got that pie.