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Dragon Age 3 to use a human protagonist


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#26
Allan Schumacher

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

I'm late for the discussuion (thanks real life!), but I have a question for the devs:

Does it matter what we think anyway regarding in this case a human protagonist? For the record, I prefer a human, but others might not, and what if there are a lot of people wanting other races as well? I understand that the human is more or less set in stone, so what is there to discuss?


LOL What indeed?



If you'd prefer, I could just lock all threads and ban people that insist on bringing it up since evidently there's nothing worth discussing regarding it, as we have made our decision.

I created this thread in direct response to people that felt I was being too harsh on closing down threads that I felt were uncivil and aggressive in their nature, and upon reflection realized that giving people a focused thread to air their grievances is better than having it spill out over into the rest of the threads.

In retrospect I was probably too hasty in closing down the threads, or rather, should have addressed them differently.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 22 octobre 2012 - 07:19 .


#27
John Epler

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I do believe I asked that we cut out the entire gender tangent.

#28
Allan Schumacher

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I think the availability of multiple Origins in the original game was a feature that appealed to a number of people. I certainly think it's loss in Dragon Age II was to the detriment of the game, since Hawke didn't appeal to me on any level.


Would you have been happier with a Hawke Elf, or a Hawke Dwarf?

#29
Allan Schumacher

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Would you have been happier with a Hawke Elf, or a Hawke Dwarf?


Depending on how the protagonist was written, I think some people would have liked Elven and Dwarven protagonists; a Ferelden dwarf could have a different cultural view than his Kirkwall counterparts. I think a proactive elven protagonist would have been interesting, in how the Kirkwall elves might have responded to him.


No, I'm talking about no differences.  Just that Hawke (and family, though I suppose we could even make Hawke adopted) are now elves and dwarves.

I'm actually being very specific in asking this.

Because the issue is seeming to be very different than simply wanting to play as a dwarf or an elf.  I'm inferring by your response that the Elf/Dwarf option would only be sufficient if the game was appropriately altered to properly support the characters (insofar as much for your own liking anyways).

You said you didn't like Hawke.  I'm asking "Is it that you didn't like Hawke because he's human or is there other aspects of Hawke that make you dislike him?"

#30
Allan Schumacher

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Rawgrim wrote...

i am pretty sure its because he is Bioware`s character. A human named Hawke. Its like someone creates a character for you. Starts the game, and then lets you play the rest.


Specifically from a character creation point (since it's what you've highlighted), what's the difference between Hawke and Cousland?

#31
Allan Schumacher

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I probably wouldn't have liked it, then. I wasn't a fan of Hawke; I found him to be very passive, and reactive instead of proactive. Doing nothing about Petrice, doing nothing in the Bethany/Cullen situation, doing nothing about Quentin's note, doing nothing about Meredith's dictatorship for three years. I wouldn't have liked him as an elf or a dwarf if he remained the same. Just my two cents, of course.


That's fine.  I think that disliking Hawke for his passivity is a fair critique of DA2.  The point I'm making is that I've seen some state that DA2 didn't have racial selection, and DA2 wasn't successful, and to the extent that the lack of race choice was a significant cause of this.

I think it's important to note, however, that it's not just "I wanted elves/dwarves."  It's that "I wanted elves/dwarves and all the extra stuff that comes with it."  Which, in my opinion, muddies up the water on precisely what people are looking for.  What exactly is "the extra stuff that comes with it" though?  And it can be tricky to find consensus regarding this too.

It then starts to become "can the extra stuff only be provided with different races?"  Now, if you're specifically hoping to explore and learn more about the Dalish as a Dalish Elf character, then yeah this is definitely going to be disappointing, since that won't be possible.

So for me, it becomes a quest for trying to figure out what the extra stuff is that people feel is missing, since I believe the issue is more than just "I'd like my character to be an elf or a dwarf."  (Although for some people, that's as simple as it is for them!)

#32
Allan Schumacher

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Caiden012 wrote...

Because we made Cousland. We looked at a list of possiblities and said "That is who I am going to be and he will have the personality I give him. He will be my character"


I don't think it'd be difficult to come up with a reasoning that you did not make Cousland.  Having said that, what you describe doesn't actually require different races.  If we had different choices of humans it would still satisfy what you're describing.


But Hawke was just given to us. Sure we could change his appearence and choose from three personalities but he wasn't ours. Also since you play the tutorial as a pre-set Hawke and then he is the first appearence option given to you in the menu it just does more to show that Hawke was not our character. We just got to control one given to us.


Regarding Hawke being just given to you, I still see this as applying to virtually any RPG though.  Ultima's Avatar is just given to you.  TNO is just given to you (although I'll accept this argument).  KOTOR's PC was just given to you.

What it looks like you've said though, is that you really love the Origin stories (since they provide a level of choice), not so much that you prefer racial choice.  If each of the the Origins had involved humans in human situations, would you not have been satisfied since it would still have been your choice of character?  Moreso than say, Baldur's Gate, where you're always Gorion's ward regardless of your race selection?

#33
Allan Schumacher

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Felya87 wrote...

Hawke was imposted. Cousland choosen.
I may seem little, but in truth, is a lot. it remind me of "Antz". the theme is that. Image IPB


Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

#34
Allan Schumacher

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soo-sama wrote...


Since the argument between you guys at Bioware and this community started I kept asking myself what it is that bugs me so much of not being able to play as a non-human in DA2. And honestly, I had been eager to don the skin of an elf and dwarf (or even a kossith) in the next DragonAge again.

So thank you for that comment. I found my answer. It isn't necessarily bound by race. For me it is essentially the conflict, the differences that come with being one of the minorities and embracing an, more or less, alien culture.
To be the advocate for my social, cultural and historical backround. Or just to forsake it. To be pried by others. Or being the flagbearer of my people. It's like living in a foreign country with a different culture. Every individual wants to be special in some way. That's what appeals to me. At this point I recognise that, for the most part, I might substitute the aforementioned matter with a, if not the, race question - How so?


I think the advantage the races have is that as a fan who doesn't have much information, it's easy to conceive of how the game would be different as an elf or a dwarf because those differences are established in DAO (and even DA2).  With a more vague reference to backgrounds that aren't playable, people will naturally gravitate to Mass Effect since it's the most similar thing.  Comparing picking those to full playable Origins is naturally going to be an unfavourable comparison.

I actually agree that making the backgrounds playable would make them more interesting (it's just easier to get that level of investment).  It comes down to picking our battles for where we want to allocate our time and which content we think is essential for the game that we want to make to try to put out the best possible game we can.


It's on us to deliver on making the backgrounds important, and if someone is skeptical I think that that is fine (I encourage it).  I don't ask and dig deeper to just go "See!  You don't need races after all!  MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!"  <.<

We understand that for some, simply being a dwarf is cool.  They may not even care about any implications.  They just want to be a dwarf because they see Dwarves as badass mofos who don't take no crap from no one!  Some of them will be "Well this sucks... but eh I'll survive."  Others will be "Well... you're gonna have to do something pretty darn special to hold my interest then...."  Those people are the one most affected by this decision, since they just can't play as a dwarf.

But I do think that some of the disappointment is because people lose that easy to conceive differences that the races give, and if there's some way to make a better game based upon still improving player agency and allowing for roleplaying, then that's still stuff to try to achieve.


Granted, from a player history and "head canon" (I don't really like that term, but whatever), I do think it's still value added if someone can imagine that their Dalish Elf motivation is due to whatever Elf specific reasoning that makes the most sense for them.  In that regard I empathize with those that won't be able to do something like that if that's what they were hoping for.

At the same time, however, I don't really feel that the racial selection is required for creating better roleplaying experience.  I have played enough RPGs that didn't have any difference in chargen aside from "What class do you want to be?" that I still felt provided great roleplaying experiences.  I think stating "well those games didn't have multiple races" is a red herring (a game like KOTOR does have multiple races but still works well as a human only PC) in that people are associating the expected differences in gameplay/experience that exists with what should be present with different races.

It's one thing to have a preference for those differences because you're a big fan of the elves/dwarves, but too many games with human only characters have shown that roleplaying opportunities do not necessitate multiple races.

#35
Allan Schumacher

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Playing as Inquisitor is not a choice is who the next hero is and what he represents in Thedas, I in particular can't role play as that.


I'd suggest waiting for more information to come out.

#36
Allan Schumacher

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The backgrounds will not be playable (I thought this was already clear actually).

#37
Allan Schumacher

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Palipride47 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The backgrounds will not be playable (I thought this was already clear actually).


I guess not. Though you may spark more fan rage, if the people who are already upset didn't know. Or less, hard to say. 

But I assume now people will respond to you more than ME, closer to how Race in DA generated response? That is why I love the races (that, and some new cultures to explore) 

If the backgrounds (eve as nonplayable ones) can do that, I'll be happy. Dunno about others, though. 


If it sparks rage, so be it.  Better to be direct about something like this IMO.

I actually only have a cursory knowledge of the backgrounds.  I have quickly read over what they are, and have seen the odd reference to them in the bits where I am in game.  I do know of some ideas on where/how they will come into play for some of the major plots (though I haven't actually experienced said major plots) which do sound interesting.

I am hoping that they provide enough variety and roleplaying opportunities.  I don't know why ME's were as simple/straight forward as they were, but based on what David has said going forward, at the very least writers seem very cognizant of the hope that they'll be referenced more frequently and with more significance than ME.

#38
Allan Schumacher

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Early ;)

#39
Allan Schumacher

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CaolIla wrote...

So Bioware is going the lazy route... who would have thought?


Define lazy.

Actually don't.  You can hate our decision, but just call a spade a spade and say you don't like the decision we made.  If you think I'm "lazy" then you don't know me, nor my colleagues.

We aren't sitting around with our feet up drinking cognac going "Good show mates, now that that's resolved there's not much to do but sit around and enjoy the sun!"

#40
Allan Schumacher

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Tevinter Dragon God wrote...

Ok, Bioware, you say you listen to your community. Then why the hell do you not make an option for different races again for DA3!!!
I am sick of being human again, I want a good old elf! And no Origin story either, do Bioware even listen to us?


I notice in your original post you talked about having only a human character being the same as a premade.

Do you feel this is the really the case, or is it more of an issue that you didn't like Hawke and don't want to be constrained to playing someone like Hawke again?

By only allowing a human character, does that mean it must be a premade?  If so, how do games like Planescape: Torment, or Knights of the Old Republic seem in your eyes?

#41
Allan Schumacher

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Cstaf wrote...

I don't usually agree with you Allan but i do respect you a lot. Why? Anyone having to sit for hours and read and answer forum posts as their job is clearly a better man than I.


This actually isn't a part of my job.  I'm here of my own volition.  The only time it is a part of my job is post-release and in that case, it's tech support forums.

#42
Allan Schumacher

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Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.


You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Planescape: Torment you can assign attribute points, and it is probably my favourite RPG of all time.  It's why I contributed to Project Eternity.

#43
Allan Schumacher

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Deleted some posts. Please be respectful to people on both sides, and try to avoid responding to a post that seems to just be inflammatory (since it can be difficult for me to track down all the responses!)

#44
Allan Schumacher

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tmp7704 wrote...

I've only checked the dev responses in this thread, but didn't see this question asked/addressed... so at the risk of repeating something said already:

just wondering -- how do you BioWare folks reconcile in your heads this fixed race business with the public statements you make how "customization is going to be bigger than Dragon Age Origins"? I mean, what is it that DA3 is going to allow to customize that DAO didn't, to not only sort-of 'even it out' with DA3 lacking option to customize what DAO allowed (in this case species, but it also includes stuff like ability to wield any sort of weapon/armour that DA2 got rid of) ... but to actually exceed the overall level of customization?



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

#45
Allan Schumacher

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Cstaf wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

I don't usually agree with you Allan but i do respect you a lot. Why? Anyone having to sit for hours and read and answer forum posts as their job is clearly a better man than I.


This actually isn't a part of my job.  I'm here of my own volition.  The only time it is a part of my job is post-release and in that case, it's tech support forums.


Ah, ok. Well i respect masochists as well.

Edit: By the way Allan, are we suppose to answer posts, such as the one above me, which can be seen as uncivil or just ignore him/her?



If you feel a post is uncivil and inflammatory, I encourage people to try to move on and not reply.

#46
Allan Schumacher

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DuskWarden wrote...

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.



This is not true.

What you described are high level systemic barriers to entry.  That doesn't mean that the population that makes up the forum is a representative sample of the customer base of Dragon Age.

#47
Allan Schumacher

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tmp7704 wrote...

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.



No, it's not.  But I'd consider it's character creator to be worse than DA2's, which is what I was replying to in my original post.

I added that it's a highly regarded RPG to illustrate that an RPG can still be a great RPG without amazing character creator options.  It's the sum of its parts.

#48
Allan Schumacher

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tmp7704 wrote...

As DA:O also allowed the player to customize their crafting abilities, and equip all types of weapons and armour if they so wished, without more details i'm afraid i don't see yet where this "more customization than DAO" is coming from. I'll presume however that you simply can't go into more details at this point, and it's something that's reserved for more official announcements/blogs etc..?


To be straight up, DAO's crafting was poor.

And yes, it's not really my place to start discussing things that haven't been announced yet.

#49
Allan Schumacher

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Felya87 wrote...

we always speak, when referring to a hipotetical Hawke Elf/Dwarf, as if he should be related to the human family.

instead, just think this: if a Hawke/Dwarf (of course, it would not be called Hawke at this point) was related to Varric's family, instead of the Amell?
and the Hawke/Elf was related with, say, Feynriel's(sorry, don't remember the name...the half Elf) mother?


This boils down to a request for more content.  It's not just "make Hawke a dwarf."  It's "Make Hawke a dwarf and build up content around it so it makes sense within the framework of the current story."

I think people are trivializing this cost.

#50
Allan Schumacher

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ianvillan wrote...

I dont agree with that, it may not of been brilliant but I wouldn't say it was poor but how Bioware ever thought DA2s crafting was better is puzzling to me.



I didn't think DA2's was very good either.  I find them to be largely the same.  The only real difference is how the resources are acquired and where the crafting can take place.


Personally, anyone that says that DAO's crafting (with my pause the world and quickly conjure up 40 potions while in combat mechanics) wasn't poor is probably looking back with rose colored glasses.

Especially compared to a game like NWN2 or a host of other games.  (I'd also argue that crafting did very little for character customization in both games).