3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Uh, the reason Geralt is so pre-determined is because his a character from a book. Just saying.

the series never let you create your own character either. So its not like anything got removed in the first place, by having the player pay as a set character.

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

[Tarathelion]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

Besides, even in pen and paper games, you not always can chose everything that you want, you don't start playing as a 3 years old, you still have some predetermined background.

Fallout 3 tried to do this, actually. And I thought it was one of the cooler portions of the game.

I agree with that, best tutorial/introduction i played

[Emzamination]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

Besides, even in pen and paper games, you not always can chose everything that you want, you don't start playing as a 3 years old, you still have some predetermined background.

Fallout 3 tried to do this, actually. And I thought it was one of the cooler portions of the game.

+1

[Caiden012]

Tarathelion wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

I found it interesting that some people claim that a good fantasy game should always have race options. Nothing could be further from truth. One of the best fantasy books ever written - Song of Ice and Fire, don't have any other races than human. Does it make it bad?, no quite the contrary.

Of course the world of Thedas have other races ad usually more options is better. Having said that, i would rather have one very good story that works for just one race then story full of compromises made to work for all of them. For me story is the priority. Being forced to play only as human, dwarf or elf (my personal preference is human) is secondary to me. I would be fine with playing any of them, even if i prefere a human character.

Also, for me being able to pick and customize characters have little to do with role-playing. Even if i inherit a character with name, look, origin i still can make it my own. Afterall i am the one making choices, i am the one chosing conversation options, i am the one creating character moral spine. There is more to it than just look and races.

Besides, even in pen and paper games, you not always can chose everything that you want, you don't start playing as a 3 years old, you still have some predetermined background.

Please go read the books. There are other races in it than human. Just not elf or dwarf.

I actually have, twice. 99% of them are human. In people minds stuff like giants and such are as much believible as snarks and grumkins. They are introduced very slowly and exist in very liminted role storywise. My point remians valid. Its preety much about humans and thats why it is so appealing to people

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

[Allan Schumacher]

Caiden012 wrote...

Because we made Cousland. We looked at a list of possiblities and said "That is who I am going to be and he will have the personality I give him. He will be my character"

I don't think it'd be difficult to come up with a reasoning that you did not make Cousland.  Having said that, what you describe doesn't actually require different races.  If we had different choices of humans it would still satisfy what you're describing.

But Hawke was just given to us. Sure we could change his appearence and choose from three personalities but he wasn't ours. Also since you play the tutorial as a pre-set Hawke and then he is the first appearence option given to you in the menu it just does more to show that Hawke was not our character. We just got to control one given to us.

Regarding Hawke being just given to you, I still see this as applying to virtually any RPG though.  Ultima's Avatar is just given to you.  TNO is just given to you (although I'll accept this argument).  KOTOR's PC was just given to you.

What it looks like you've said though, is that you really love the Origin stories (since they provide a level of choice), not so much that you prefer racial choice.  If each of the the Origins had involved humans in human situations, would you not have been satisfied since it would still have been your choice of character?  Moreso than say, Baldur's Gate, where you're always Gorion's ward regardless of your race selection?

[Eternal Phoenix]

So I heard something about non-playable origins???

[Allan Schumacher]

Felya87 wrote...

Hawke was imposted. Cousland choosen.
I may seem little, but in truth, is a lot. it remind me of "Antz". the theme is that.

Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

No they are absolutely not whatsoever.  The only possible way you could assume this is with an arbitrary, meaningless, and completely inconsistent definition of "pre-created."  I am not even going to dignify this assertion with further discussion.

Caiden012 wrote...

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It's probably evidence that dwarves and elves need not be present in fantasy in order to be popular, at least.  But yeah, I doubt "it's all humans!" is the main reason for its popularity.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 octobre 2012 - 08:35 .

[Ianamus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I probably wouldn't have liked it, then. I wasn't a fan of Hawke; I found him to be very passive, and reactive instead of proactive. Doing nothing about Petrice, doing nothing in the Bethany/Cullen situation, doing nothing about Quentin's note, doing nothing about Meredith's dictatorship for three years. I wouldn't have liked him as an elf or a dwarf if he remained the same. Just my two cents, of course.

That's fine.  I think that disliking Hawke for his passivity is a fair critique of DA2.  The point I'm making is that I've seen some state that DA2 didn't have racial selection, and DA2 wasn't successful, and to the extent that the lack of race choice was a significant cause of this.

I think it's important to note, however, that it's not just "I wanted elves/dwarves."  It's that "I wanted elves/dwarves and all the extra stuff that comes with it."  Which, in my opinion, muddies up the water on precisely what people are looking for.  What exactly is "the extra stuff that comes with it" though?  And it can be tricky to find consensus regarding this too.

It then starts to become "can the extra stuff only be provided with different races?"  Now, if you're specifically hoping to explore and learn more about the Dalish as a Dalish Elf character, then yeah this is definitely going to be disappointing, since that won't be possible.

So for me, it becomes a quest for trying to figure out what the extra stuff is that people feel is missing, since I believe the issue is more than just "I'd like my character to be an elf or a dwarf."  (Although for some people, that's as simple as it is for them!)

Well, for me it wasn't so much about how the world as a whole reacted to my characters race, but how it affected the interactions with my companions. I played a City Elf the first time I played through Origins and overall I wasn't too impressed by how the race choice was represented in game (In hindsight it changed very little- particuarly plot wise).

However I will forever remember the conversations with leliana (my LI) where she she referenced my race. She completely dug herself into a hole trying to be inofensive and deciding how my character would respond to her unintentional insults was fun- as was getting a better sense of the rather distorted view she had of "my" race. 

I think that is why I look so fondly upon the different race selections in Origins, they seemed to add a depth to the relationships with the companions (both romantic and platonic) that was sometimes missing in the incredibly linear interactions of DA2. 

Modifié par EJ107, 22 octobre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Elton John is dead wrote...

So I heard something about non-playable origins???

We don't know much about them, but the devs did say that there would multple backgrounds to choose from. These backgrounds would not be playable, but would affect the game/story in ways not yet revealed to us.

[Atakuma]

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Uh, the reason Geralt is so pre-determined is because his a character from a book. Just saying.

the series never let you create your own character either. So its not like anything got removed in the first place, by having the player pay as a set character.

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

It works exactly the same way in Origins, it's just that there you get to pick from an assortment of precreated characters that all end up being pretty much the same.

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

No they are absolutely not whatsoever.  The only possible way you could assume this is with an arbitrary, meaningless, and completely inconsistent definition of "pre-created."  I am not even going to dignify this assertion with further discussion.

Caiden012 wrote...

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It's probably evidence that dwarves and elves need not be present in fantasy in order to be popular, at least.  But yeah, I doubt "it's all humans!" is the main reason for its popularity.

Did the player create Geralt? Nope. Did the player create Hawke? Nope.


Just for the record. Wich Song and Ice character`s arn`t human? I would say its 100 percent, unless i am forgetting someone. The White Walkers don`t count, since none of them are characters, per se. Not yet, anyway.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Pff, Couslands origin. My least favourite. I don't need your human castles and your riches!

All I need is a giant tower full of templars and a blood mage as a best friend.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

No they are absolutely not whatsoever.  The only possible way you could assume this is with an arbitrary, meaningless, and completely inconsistent definition of "pre-created."  I am not even going to dignify this assertion with further discussion.

Caiden012 wrote...

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It's probably evidence that dwarves and elves need not be present in fantasy in order to be popular, at least.  But yeah, I doubt "it's all humans!" is the main reason for its popularity.

Did the player create Geralt? Nope. Did the player create Hawke? Nope.


Just for the record. Wich Song and Ice character`s arn`t human? I would say its 100 percent, unless i am forgetting someone. The White Walkers don`t count, since none of them are characters, per se. Not yet, anyway.

The giants, possibly Hodor(mixed anyways).

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Not to speak for others, but yes it does, for me at least. 

GRANTED,  they must give a feeling of impact. Them not being playable lowers that level, I would think, so the way they influence the story would have to be more than the backgrounds in ME OR the Origins in DA:O. The Origins in DA:O could get away with not having a larger presence, since we already experienced so much of the custom character in the Origin (a couple hours). 

If the background selection resulted in a couple hours of gameplay differences (not just dialogue that's different for fifteen seconds), then I think even the most ardent fans could be placated. But that's no small feat.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 octobre 2012 - 08:42 .

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That still, absolutely, categorically, does not make Hawke and Geralt the same.  That is utter nonsense.

They are both "the same" in the way that its a pre-created character that you take control of.

No they are absolutely not whatsoever.  The only possible way you could assume this is with an arbitrary, meaningless, and completely inconsistent definition of "pre-created."  I am not even going to dignify this assertion with further discussion.

Caiden012 wrote...

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It's probably evidence that dwarves and elves need not be present in fantasy in order to be popular, at least.  But yeah, I doubt "it's all humans!" is the main reason for its popularity.

Did the player create Geralt? Nope. Did the player create Hawke? Nope.


Just for the record. Wich Song and Ice character`s arn`t human? I would say its 100 percent, unless i am forgetting someone. The White Walkers don`t count, since none of them are characters, per se. Not yet, anyway.

The giants, possibly Hodor(mixed anyways).

Correct. I keep forgetting the giants.

[Tarathelion]

Caiden012 wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

I found it interesting that some people claim that a good fantasy game should always have race options. Nothing could be further from truth. One of the best fantasy books ever written - Song of Ice and Fire, don't have any other races than human. Does it make it bad?, no quite the contrary.

Of course the world of Thedas have other races ad usually more options is better. Having said that, i would rather have one very good story that works for just one race then story full of compromises made to work for all of them. For me story is the priority. Being forced to play only as human, dwarf or elf (my personal preference is human) is secondary to me. I would be fine with playing any of them, even if i prefere a human character.

Also, for me being able to pick and customize characters have little to do with role-playing. Even if i inherit a character with name, look, origin i still can make it my own. Afterall i am the one making choices, i am the one chosing conversation options, i am the one creating character moral spine. There is more to it than just look and races.

Besides, even in pen and paper games, you not always can chose everything that you want, you don't start playing as a 3 years old, you still have some predetermined background.

Please go read the books. There are other races in it than human. Just not elf or dwarf.

I actually have, twice. 99% of them are human. In people minds stuff like giants and such are as much believible as snarks and grumkins. They are introduced very slowly and exist in very liminted role storywise. My point remians valid. Its preety much about humans and thats why it is so appealing to people

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It was some sort of shortcut in a way from me. It really is a complex matter why its so good but partially it is because its easier to identify with universal humans problems, motivations and agendas that it would be other races, especially for broader audiance. Anyway, thats irrevelant. Whats relevant is, you can have a good fantasy world with just humans in it and Song of Ice and Fire is a good example of it (even iif other races do exist in minority as you have pointed out)

[DragonRageGT]

Well, if BW was going to take anything from Skyrim, it certainly should be the character creation and all the playable races...plus dwarves of course!

[Caiden012]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Because we made Cousland. We looked at a list of possiblities and said "That is who I am going to be and he will have the personality I give him. He will be my character"

I don't think it'd be difficult to come up with a reasoning that you did not make Cousland.  Having said that, what you describe doesn't actually require different races.  If we had different choices of humans it would still satisfy what you're describing.

But Hawke was just given to us. Sure we could change his appearence and choose from three personalities but he wasn't ours. Also since you play the tutorial as a pre-set Hawke and then he is the first appearence option given to you in the menu it just does more to show that Hawke was not our character. We just got to control one given to us.

Regarding Hawke being just given to you, I still see this as applying to virtually any RPG though.  Ultima's Avatar is just given to you.  TNO is just given to you (although I'll accept this argument).  KOTOR's PC was just given to you.

What it looks like you've said though, is that you really love the Origin stories (since they provide a level of choice), not so much that you prefer racial choice.  If each of the the Origins had involved humans in human situations, would you not have been satisfied since it would still have been your choice of character?  Moreso than say, Baldur's Gate, where you're always Gorion's ward regardless of your race selection?

I am saying that race choice is a part of all of that. We should not speak in a "what if" situation of something that already happened. We were given race choice and it was taken away. (I did not play Baldur's, sorry). This is not KOTOR. It is Dragon Age. The fact is we were given a choice to make our own character in Origins and it made us feel good. Now we lost that and it felt very bad. That is why some of us are upset. And race is a part of making out own character in the DRAGON AGE universe because race is important in Dragon Age.

[Caiden012]

Tarathelion wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Tarathelion wrote...

I found it interesting that some people claim that a good fantasy game should always have race options. Nothing could be further from truth. One of the best fantasy books ever written - Song of Ice and Fire, don't have any other races than human. Does it make it bad?, no quite the contrary.

Of course the world of Thedas have other races ad usually more options is better. Having said that, i would rather have one very good story that works for just one race then story full of compromises made to work for all of them. For me story is the priority. Being forced to play only as human, dwarf or elf (my personal preference is human) is secondary to me. I would be fine with playing any of them, even if i prefere a human character.

Also, for me being able to pick and customize characters have little to do with role-playing. Even if i inherit a character with name, look, origin i still can make it my own. Afterall i am the one making choices, i am the one chosing conversation options, i am the one creating character moral spine. There is more to it than just look and races.

Besides, even in pen and paper games, you not always can chose everything that you want, you don't start playing as a 3 years old, you still have some predetermined background.

Please go read the books. There are other races in it than human. Just not elf or dwarf.

I actually have, twice. 99% of them are human. In people minds stuff like giants and such are as much believible as snarks and grumkins. They are introduced very slowly and exist in very liminted role storywise. My point remians valid. Its preety much about humans and thats why it is so appealing to people

A song of Ice and Fire does not appeal to people because 99% of the characters are human.

It was some sort of shortcut in a way from me. It really is a complex matter why its so good but partially it is because its easier to identify with universal humans problems, motivations and agendas that it would be other races, especially for broader audiance. Anyway, thats irrevelant. Whats relevant is, you can have a good fantasy world with just humans in it and Song of Ice and Fire is a good example of it (even iif other races do exist in minority as you have pointed out)

But Thedas is not a world with just humans.

[Felya87]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Felya87 wrote...

Hawke was imposted. Cousland choosen.
I may seem little, but in truth, is a lot. it remind me of "Antz". the theme is that.

Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

it would have if we didn't have them in DA:O. That spoiled us as players. it's hard to eat at the school canteen, if you have eaten in a restaurant.

a good hambuerger can't be good as a fiorentina steak (sorry I'm Italian, I hope you understand what I'm whriting)

[upsettingshorts]

Caiden012 wrote...

 We were given race choice and it was taken away.

So you're saying that it's basically loss aversion?

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Felya87 wrote...

Hawke was imposted. Cousland choosen.
I may seem little, but in truth, is a lot. it remind me of "Antz". the theme is that.

Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

To be fair, as long as we don´t have a ME2 Sole Survivor situation, it is something at least. It also depends on how much the game focuses on elves and dwarves. If they are just tangencial to the story, no real problem. If we find out the truth about their claimed immortality, fall of Arlathan, and so on, then I´ll be rather annoyed. I think some of it also has to do with elves being the underdog. So even if their problems and misteries are resoved by a human, it feels somehow condescending. Kind of a fantasy version of the Mighty Whitey trope. Oddly enough I don´t have so many problems with dwarves, probably because of the way their society works, and that they don´t seem to be treated worse by humans as elves are.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

So I heard something about non-playable origins???

We don't know much about them, but the devs did say that there would multple backgrounds to choose from. These backgrounds would not be playable, but would affect the game/story in ways not yet revealed to us.

I see. Glad to see that we will have some customization there then. At least we will have more to think about when creating a character than just the class we will choose from.

[zyntifox]

Caiden012 wrote...

I am saying that race choice is a part of all of that. We should not speak in a "what if" situation of something that already happened. We were given race choice and it was taken away. (I did not play Baldur's, sorry). This is not KOTOR. It is Dragon Age. The fact is we were given a choice to make our own character in Origins and it made us feel good. Now we lost that and it felt very bad. That is why some of us are upset. And race is a part of making out own character in the DRAGON AGE universe because race is important in Dragon Age.

My god man, you lucky bastard. How i wish i could forget my hundreds of playthroughs of BG I and II and replay them. Be sure to pick up BG:EE when it releases in november, you won't regret it.