3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

Narrative cohesion and versimilitude.

[lokisjoke13]

Is my inability to make an elven PC a deal breaker? No. But I most definitely find it disappointing.

[Felya87]

thing is...even without the race selection, the playable origins give something that an origin written, as ME's, can't give. At least not as much.

play the orgins, even if for a great part of the game is just how people are referring to the PC, create an attachment to the character.
the player enter in the head of the character created, and than, during the rest of the game, he have the sensation to see with the eyes of the character.

somenthing the written origins can't do so well.

[Dragoonlordz]

Morroian wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I think the only reason they even say will have background selection is because even they know how bad it will be for them reaction wise if didn't even bother with that and just pulled another Hawke on the fans. Hawke is despised by many people for many reasons but the one reason you will hear more than any other on here is Hawke feeling like Bioware's character and not the players, the illusion of being the players is for many destroyed by the reality of how little impact and choice given to the player on who he or she is and not only what he or she can do plot wise.

So why do you like ME3 then?

ME3 was always a third person role playing series, it started as that and ended as that. I had no illusions as to what it was when first played it. DA was different and allowed me the customer to have a first person role playing game (no that does not mean first person visuals) it was a different form of roleplaying game. I got invested and interested in this franchise because it was different and gave me, the consumer; choice. I had two different franchises that were designed with different formats in mind and now as time goes on DA is just becoming a ME clone set in a DA world features and idiology wise of which I have no interest.

The only reason I even still talk on this section of the forum is because they promised would be bringing back some of the elements that I liked about DA and it seems this is not one of them. If there are many more disappointments then I will honestly lose interest. I have ME if I want third person action roleplaying with VO and dialogue wheels, history selection is tacky text boxes and no ability to interact or even play part of that history to set up the character and lower quality customisation. I do not care to have more of the same here. I got interested in this franchise because was not the same, you make it too similar then I lose interest.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[Nerevar-as]

Caiden012 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

VO, which allows better flow of conversations and cinematic presentation. Which would be great if this was a movie and not a game.

David said a few months ago that they were not limited by a voiced protagonist and race options.

It´s paying 2 more actors for origin, and also writing 2 more characters if they were going to do it properly this time around, and with different interactions. So besides the extra cost and work, I see no reason not to do it. Properly done it would greatly improve gameplay, but sadly looking at DA2 and ME3 writing copouts, it looks like BW has settled for average rather than their old greatness.

[PaulSX]

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

A more focused storyline. you know DA3 is about mage/templar conflict which is more a human problem.

[Dave of Canada]

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Origin wasn´t dismissed. At least I didn´t play my City Elf as my Human Noble.

But the game did nothing with it, you had to head-canon that just like head-canoning anything with Warden/Hawke's past before play. I can head-canon anything to satisfy my character, doesn't make it any less irrelevant.

It should have played a bigger part in interactions with other characters, but the answer was to expand the feature not send it to make company to the Mako.

Now that's a legitimate argumentative view, I'd agree that having it be expanded would've been great but they didn't go with it for Dragon Age 2 and decided to make Hawke's origin more relevant to the entire narrative--it's story having a crucial role in some of the themes presented in the game.

And Hawke´s origin means nothing, has as little bearing in the story as any GW´s did..

Hawke's origin established much of the themes presented in the game, some of it even present in the game's central conflict. Did you not play Act 1 or 2? The only one I'd say which the origin was mostly irrelevant would be the third act, though it continues the themes presented in the first two and even finishes with you possibly coming back close with your sibling.

Not even being a mage means anything, in one of the bigger gameplay-story segregation I´ve ever seen.

That was mostly due to cut content.

(And unless you´ve read the books, Geralt is a blank slate too, you know little to nothing of how he thought, and can turn him into a genocidal bastard.)

Well, giving an example from the first game: You're presented with a question by Triss on who you are and how you feel on multiple issues, this prompts Geralt to try and discover more about himself. There's multiple answers, some relating to humans and some relating to the non-humans but there's a lot of ways you can answer this.

However, never can you answer anything outside of Geralt the Character. All possible branches are themes based off Sarpowski's work ("I relate with elves cause I'm non-human and humans are ****s.", "I related with humans because despite being a witcher, I'm a human myself", etc). You might kill off hundreds of elves or humans based off your choices but you'll never have the option to do it and claim something along the lines of "kill 'em all", you're always just either defending the underdog / doing what's necessary or trying to remain neutral (and eventually failing)--which Geralt does in the books countless times.

Compare this to say... Hawke, who can do a bunch of things with countless reasonings. Kill all mages and say "KILL THEM ALL", "PROTECT THE PEOPLE", "THIS MUST BE DONE UNFORTUNATELY" or anything else and it'll remain in character for them as you're that open for interpretation.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

I don't think that's an easy question to answer without us having played the game.

When DA2 came out, BioWare asked asked why we didn't get to choose which sibling survived Lothering, and they said that there were story-related reasons for that that would become clear when we played the game.  Now, as it happens, that never really did become clear.  I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But, giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt, they could well have a similar answer this time.

[Cathey]

I will miss being able to play as an elf but a human is perfectly fine by me. I can easily make a good looking human and just pretend I have pointy ears

[upsettingshorts]

I challenge anyone who seriously believes that Hawke's origin has no relevance to the scripted narrative to replay the game - or watch a Let's Play- and make a list of every single reference, up to and including single lines of dialogue, to something fixed about Hawke.

Also everything Dave of Canada and Vandicus said.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .

[Nerevar-as]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

I don't think that's an easy question to answer without us having played the game.

When DA2 came out, BioWare asked asked why we didn't get to choose which sibling survived Lothering, and they said that there were story-related reasons for that that would become clear when we played the game.  Now, as it happens, that never really did become clear.  I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But, giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt, they could well have a similar answer this time.

They also said the story only made sense with a human. Nothing in act I or II would have changed with a non human PC, and in Act III the main difference would have been  a dwarf couldn´t have been a amge or have a mage sister. As if having an opinion on taking sides on a genocide depended on having someone related being subject to it.

[Caiden012]

suntzuxi wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

A more focused storyline. you know DA3 is about mage/templar conflict which is more a human problem.

Elves can be mages. In fact they are probably more proficent in magic than humans. and who says that an elf wouldn't want to join the templars? I know this has already be talked about other threads but it really doesn't seem like something that Bioware couldn't work out. I am sure they could find a reason for a dwarf to get involved. I mean a dwarf can become a templar can't he? I don't wish to start this up again, all I am saying is that I don't feel like that is the only reason. 

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

[The Elder King]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

I don't think that's an easy question to answer without us having played the game.

When DA2 came out, BioWare asked asked why we didn't get to choose which sibling survived Lothering, and they said that there were story-related reasons for that that would become clear when we played the game.  Now, as it happens, that never really did become clear.  I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But, giving BioWare the benefit of the doubt, they could well have a similar answer this time.

Agreed. They were both trying to hide from the templars (which the PC does anyway as a mage) and the choice of bringing Bethany in the Deep Roads will function in the same way.
Though it's true that the sibling choice, that would've lead to a combination of no Hawke sibling in Kirkwall, might have broken the plot of Act 1. Hawke would've certainly tried to find money and restore his family's status, but it wouldn't have the urge of having to restore the status to protect one of the siblings from the templars. And having the sibling choice only for mage Hawke might have been unfair.

[Icinix]

 

Icinix opinionated...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
For those that feel this is a necessary component to "making the character theirs" I'm curious what peoples thoughts are to games like the Ultima ones, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, or even Planescape: Torment.

I like KOTOR got two mentions.


MODEDIT: Sorry, I accidentally clicked on "Edit" instead of "Quote" as I am failmod...

^^^ LOL!


If the DA3 player character has as much player agency, dialogue choice, and ending outcomes as those games. It will be glorious.

As much as I would prefer races with an affect on dialogue and story, freedom to express the players character as opposed to the character developing as their own character is more important to me than all other things in game. If the character has to be human, let it be the players human.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Yes, that's a problem. Though my major problem with the sibling death shouldn't have happened, or shouldn't have happened in Lothering.

[Nerevar-as]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

The Origin wasn´t dismissed. At least I didn´t play my City Elf as my Human Noble.

But the game did nothing with it, you had to head-canon that just like head-canoning anything with Warden/Hawke's past before play. I can head-canon anything to satisfy my character, doesn't make it any less irrelevant.

It should have played a bigger part in interactions with other characters, but the answer was to expand the feature not send it to make company to the Mako.

Now that's a legitimate argumentative view, I'd agree that having it be expanded would've been great but they didn't go with it for Dragon Age 2 and decided to make Hawke's origin more relevant to the entire narrative--it's story having a crucial role in some of the themes presented in the game.

And Hawke´s origin means nothing, has as little bearing in the story as any GW´s did..

Hawke's origin established much of the themes presented in the game, some of it even present in the game's central conflict. Did you not play Act 1 or 2? The only one I'd say which the origin was mostly irrelevant would be the third act, though it continues the themes presented in the first two and even finishes with you possibly coming back close with your sibling.

Not even being a mage means anything, in one of the bigger gameplay-story segregation I´ve ever seen.

That was mostly due to cut content.

(And unless you´ve read the books, Geralt is a blank slate too, you know little to nothing of how he thought, and can turn him into a genocidal bastard.)

Well, giving an example from the first game: You're presented with a question by Triss on who you are and how you feel on multiple issues, this prompts Geralt to try and discover more about himself. There's multiple answers, some relating to humans and some relating to the non-humans but there's a lot of ways you can answer this.

However, never can you answer anything outside of Geralt the Character. All possible branches are themes based off Sarpowski's work ("I relate with elves cause I'm non-human and humans are ****s.", "I related with humans because despite being a witcher, I'm a human myself", etc). You might kill off hundreds of elves or humans based off your choices but you'll never have the option to do it and claim something along the lines of "kill 'em all", you're always just either defending the underdog / doing what's necessary or trying to remain neutral (and eventually failing)--which Geralt does in the books countless times.

Compare this to say... Hawke, who can do a bunch of things with countless reasonings. Kill all mages and say "KILL THEM ALL", "PROTECT THE PEOPLE", "THIS MUST BE DONE UNFORTUNATELY" or anything else and it'll remain in character for them as you're that open for interpretation.

Then you are completely headcanoning Hawke´s personality. I play differently, to me a character has the personality I see on screen. I like to be able to determine what emotions s/he feels, but I have to see them too. So Hawke stroke me as a bland and poorly writen person, and can´t headcanon them into a richer personality. But that´s more a problem with HAwke itself than with setting the Origin.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Actually... that is spot-on accurate. I hadn't even thought of that.



Although...  in Kirkwall, they would still be refugees and poor, seeking to regain their family's estate and standing. So that could explain why Hawke does what he does in the first Act.

But you'd have to re-work a LOT of Leandra and Carver's dialogue in the first Act, I feel. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Why not?  I found no evidence of that in the game.

I admittedly never played a non-Mage Hawke, but nothing about Carver's story seemed to require Hawke be a mage.  He'd just need to be a bit less whiny.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But you'd have to re-work a LOT of Leandra and Carver's dialogue in the first Act, I feel. 

Leandra has every reason to fear the Templars.  She married an apostate.  At least one of her children was an apostate.  Maybe the others are, too.  Make the Templars just a little more zealous and her fear would be totally justified, even if there is no surviving Hawke mage.

[Dessalines]

Maybe since there are very few fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story that allow you to play a dark skinned human it is causing me not grasp why people are upset about not being able to play an elf, dwarf, or what have you.

[The Elder King]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Actually... that is spot-on accurate. I hadn't even thought of that.



Although...  in Kirkwall, they would still be refugees and poor, seeking to regain their family's estate and standing. So that could explain why Hawke does what he does in the first Act.

But you'd have to re-work a LOT of Leandra and Carver's dialogue in the first Act, I feel. 

The major problem is that Hawke wouldn't have been "forced" to agree with Varric's proposal. They need to restore the family's title (and having wealth) as soon as possible to protect either Hawke or Bethany from the templars. WIthout this threat, they have more time. It's not necessary to agree with Varric's proposal.
Not that they couldn't have found a way to making some changes in Act 1 for a non-mage Hawke/Carver combo, but considering the development time of DA2, it'd have been impossible.

[Felya87]

Caiden012 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

I think a lot of us just want to know "Why?". What sort of features are we gaining from losing race choice?

A more focused storyline. you know DA3 is about mage/templar conflict which is more a human problem.

Elves can be mages. In fact they are probably more proficent in magic than humans. and who says that an elf wouldn't want to join the templars? I know this has already be talked about other threads but it really doesn't seem like something that Bioware couldn't work out. I am sure they could find a reason for a dwarf to get involved. I mean a dwarf can become a templar can't he? I don't wish to start this up again, all I am saying is that I don't feel like that is the only reason. 

well...a Dwarf andrastian could be unusual, but not impossible, for example. First, a Dwarf who live autside can have changed his beliving, having lost the attacment to the stone, and, living with humans, could find another relingion in the human's one...

but if I remember well, in DA:O, in Orzamarr there was a Dwarf priest who wish to expand Andraste's coult between his people. I don't know if he continue to spread Andraste's word if not helped by the warden, but his presence only give credibility to an Andrastian Dwarf.

so, why a Dwarf can't desire to serve the Chantry? it can be unusual, but not impossible

[areuexperienced]

I always felt that which sibling lives/dies is there as a counterpoint to what class your Hawke is. If you're a mage, then you have Carver, who also potentially ends up as a templar, Bethany goes to the Circle if not made a warden, you get it. They're also there to try and rope you into one side of the conflict or the other, being your siblings and all, it makes sense for you to be influenced by them in your decision making.

[Maclimes]

Hawke's dad was a mage either way. I feel that could have been enough justification for the Hawke family to support the mages (pride in their father, love, etc) or support the templar (resentment, abandonment, etc). Yes, the dialogue would have needed to be reworked, but not if it had been planned that way from the beginning.

Although this is WAY off-topic now.

To answer your question, Allan: Yes, the backgrounds do mitigate the pain from losing racial selection, for me at least. I'm still a little broken-hearted about the absence of a dwarven PC again, but with a good enough game, I'll get over it.

Modifié par Maclimes, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:21 .