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[Sylvius the Mad]

If it's a sandbox, the "great story" is your job.

And, frankly, "fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story" is an incredibly steep filter all on its own. How many sandboxed have great stories? New Vegas does, but that's not fantasy.

[Caiden012]

Dessalines wrote...

Maybe since there are very few fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story that allow you to play a dark skinned human it is causing me not grasp why people are upset about not being able to play an elf, dwarf, or what have you.

Your sig has two of them and empathy my friend.

Modifié par Caiden012, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:25 .

[fchopin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Why not?  I found no evidence of that in the game.

I admittedly never played a non-Mage Hawke, but nothing about Carver's story seemed to require Hawke be a mage.  He'd just need to be a bit less whiny.

Because if Bethany was in the game both Hawke and Bethany would be mages and the game would not work correctly when Bethany was taken away.

[The Elder King]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But you'd have to re-work a LOT of Leandra and Carver's dialogue in the first Act, I feel. 

Leandra has every reason to fear the Templars.  She married an apostate.  At least one of her children was an apostate.  Maybe the others are, too.  Make the Templars just a little more zealous and her fear would be totally justified, even if there is no surviving Hawke mage.

There are methods to find if a person is a mage or not. The moment they interrogated Carver and Hawke, they'd know they're not mages.
And I don't remember that the reason because Hawke and Bethany risked to be discovered as apostates is because of their father. We don't know if they have the data of Leandra marrying Malcolm. Templars investigate the town in search of apostates. People could've leaked info about Hawke/Bethany to the templars.

[Dessalines]

Nevermind.

Modifié par Dessalines, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Why not?  I found no evidence of that in the game.

I admittedly never played a non-Mage Hawke, but nothing about Carver's story seemed to require Hawke be a mage.  He'd just need to be a bit less whiny.

Well, non-mage Hawke's had Bethany act as a sort of "self-hatred" kind of character, whereas Carver was a typical little brother, bratty and trying to get out of his older brothers Shadow. The reason the shadow existed was due to Hawke being a mage (and more capable) For Warriors and Rogues, it makes little sense for Carver to be around because then this is a sibling rivalry where Carver is on equal footing, versus him failing to understand what it means to be a mage.

Now that I think about it, dialogue wise in the game, there is no way Carver could be alive if Hawke is not a mage. 

[Caiden012]

Dessalines wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Maybe since there are very few fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story that allow you to play a dark skinned human it is causing me not grasp why people are upset about not being able to play an elf, dwarf, or what have you.

You sig has two of them and empathy my friend.

I said games with a great story.  Amalur and Skryim's story are not great. 

In your opinion they are not.

[Fast Jimmy]

Regardless... if we're able to have a debate about if there were even plot reasons supplied in DA2, then I'd say they didn't give a good explanation of it in-game. Which was the original point attempting to be made.

[Nerevar-as]

hhh89 wrote...

The major problem is that Hawke wouldn't have been "forced" to agree with Varric's proposal. They need to restore the family's title (and having wealth) as soon as possible to protect either Hawke or Bethany from the templars. WIthout this threat, they have more time. It's not necessary to agree with Varric's proposal.
Not that they couldn't have found a way to making some changes in Act 1 for a non-mage Hawke/Carver combo, but considering the development time of DA2, it'd have been impossible.

I found really jarring that Eamon, 3rd Ferelden most powerful noble, and in a country not that fond of the Chantry, couldn´t prevent his son getting sent to the Circle yet in a much stricter Kirkwall money would do it. Especially considering Meredith´s personality.

[Icinix]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I see no reason why Mage Hawke couldn't have had Bethany around.

But non-mage Hawke couldn't have Carver for the story to work.

Why not?  I found no evidence of that in the game.

I admittedly never played a non-Mage Hawke, but nothing about Carver's story seemed to require Hawke be a mage.  He'd just need to be a bit less whiny.

Well, non-mage Hawke's had Bethany act as a sort of "self-hatred" kind of character, whereas Carver was a typical little brother, bratty and trying to get out of his older brothers Shadow. The reason the shadow existed was due to Hawke being a mage (and more capable) For Warriors and Rogues, it makes little sense for Carver to be around because then this is a sibling rivalry where Carver is on equal footing, versus him failing to understand what it means to be a mage.

Now that I think about it, dialogue wise in the game, there is no way Carver could be alive if Hawke is not a mage. 

I would have loved to have seen this play out with Bethany / Carver both being the opposite of what Hawke was. So if you chose mage, they would be a warrior and a rogue and if you were a warrior or a rogue, they would both be mages.

Then your choice got one of them offed as opposed to your choice in class getting one of them offed.

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If it's a sandbox, the "great story" is your job.

And, frankly, "fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story" is an incredibly steep filter all on its own. How many sandboxed have great stories? New Vegas does, but that's not fantasy.

The Rock Star Category and Sleeping Dogs, but they don't count.

You can argue Thief and Dishonored...

[The Elder King]

Nerevar-as wrote...



I found really jarring that Eamon, 3rd Ferelden most powerful noble, and in a country not that fond of the Chantry, couldn´t prevent his son getting sent to the Circle yet in a much stricter Kirkwall money would do it. Especially considering Meredith´s personality.

Well, yeah, I agree with you, Expecially considering that there was a known famous mage in Honnleath.<_<
Though I couldn't understand what prevented Meredith to arrest Merrill and Anders in Act 2. Hawke doesn't have the power to protect them in Act 2 (it's clearly stated that Anders is free because he's a friend of the Champion). There's still the possibility she didn't find about them in Act 2, but that would mean she's an incompetent templar, other than extremist.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .

[LinksOcarina]

Nerevar-as wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The major problem is that Hawke wouldn't have been "forced" to agree with Varric's proposal. They need to restore the family's title (and having wealth) as soon as possible to protect either Hawke or Bethany from the templars. WIthout this threat, they have more time. It's not necessary to agree with Varric's proposal.
Not that they couldn't have found a way to making some changes in Act 1 for a non-mage Hawke/Carver combo, but considering the development time of DA2, it'd have been impossible.

I found really jarring that Eamon, 3rd Ferelden most powerful noble, and in a country not that fond of the Chantry, couldn´t prevent his son getting sent to the Circle yet in a much stricter Kirkwall money would do it. Especially considering Meredith´s personality.

Got to remember, Kirkwall is basically corrupt by that point, flooded with refugees, ner-do-wells, mooks and vagabonds, has a fairly weak vicount and a Qunari problem, and very strict policies on mages.

Money talks, so as long as Meredith didn't find out I can see templars turning the other cheek with a bag of soverigns handed to them by Varric. 

[Genshie]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If it's a sandbox, the "great story" is your job.

And, frankly, "fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story" is an incredibly steep filter all on its own. How many sandboxed have great stories? New Vegas does, but that's not fantasy.

The Rock Star Category and Sleeping Dogs, but they don't count.

You can argue Thief and Dishonored...

You said Rock Star already but I am going to mentioned Batman Arkham City/Asylum and another good sand box with a pretty good story and characters Infamous 1 and 2. There are actually alot of good sandbox games with good a story. I am surprised the question is even brought up. (Edit: First few Spyros, hey you are in big areas so it counts. The first Spiderman game for PSX and the list goes on and on)

Modifié par Genshie, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[The Elder King]

LinksOcarina wrote...


Got to remember, Kirkwall is basically corrupt by that point, flooded with refugees, ner-do-wells, mooks and vagabonds, has a fairly weak vicount and a Qunari problem, and very strict policies on mages.

Money talks, so as long as Meredith didn't find out I can see templars turning the other cheek with a bag of soverigns handed to them by Varric. 

I agree that corruption is more present in Kirkwall than in Ferelden, but corruption works everywhere. I'd say that, more than Eamon not having the power or the influence of preventing Connor to be taken to the Circle, is that he wanted him to go to the Circle.
edit: oh, and if Meredith did get bribed, my opinion of hers would fall lower than it already is. I wouldn't see more difference to, say, Warden Kuril.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:35 .

[mat21]

I suppose my only problem with this is that the cultures which have been created for the elves dwarves and Kosith are really cool and would have been fun to explore more of them or have them as part of a character backgroud ( Since origins for example I have always felt very pro the dowtrodden elves as I have a thing for underdogs). I can see why this might be hard though if the PC is playing an Inquisator in Orlais. In fact it's becuase all of the cultures are unique that you can't really interchage which race you are without major consequeces in how the world reacts to you.

If we are still able to have variation in our character and the specialisation pays of with a good story which dosn't require a stretch of the imagination to fit then I imagine I can cope with a human protagonist though.

[Dave of Canada]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Then you are completely headcanoning Hawke´s personality.

Somewhat, yes. Same way I did with the Warden. I'd be polite and kind to my friends but as soon as someone like Loghain or the Arishok appeared, I was aggressive to them.

I play differently, to me a character has the personality I see on screen.

So Warden was blank-faced all the time?

So Hawke stroke me as a bland and poorly writen person, and can´t headcanon them into a richer personality.

Care to give me examples of why? I mean, where couldn't you accurately portray the character?

[Dessalines]

Caiden012 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Maybe since there are very few fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story that allow you to play a dark skinned human it is causing me not grasp why people are upset about not being able to play an elf, dwarf, or what have you.

You sig has two of them and empathy my friend.

I said games with a great story.  Amalur and Skryim's story are not great. 

In your opinion they are not.

Yes, it is my opinion that only allows me to prefer coherent stories.
Thank you, I did not realize that some people have a strong urge to empathize with elves and dwarves by playing them. I always enjoy engaging in fictional worlds through the eyes of a human, because you know how a human feels. If you play another race, you are just a human pretending to be fantasy creature which kinda ruins the alien nature of the fantasy race.

[Maclimes]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Care to give me examples of why? I mean, where couldn't you accurately portray the character?

To me, the big one was a lack of neutral option.

You had, basically, "Good Guy", "Bad Guy", and "Smartass". You never got a more even-tempered, neutral persona. Occasionally, the "Good Guy" option filled that role, but you wouldn't know until after you clicked. I think it could be solved with simply the addition of a "Wise" option. Not good, not bad, and not humorous.

[Caiden012]

Dessalines wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Maybe since there are very few fantasy setting sandboxes with a great story that allow you to play a dark skinned human it is causing me not grasp why people are upset about not being able to play an elf, dwarf, or what have you.

You sig has two of them and empathy my friend.

I said games with a great story.  Amalur and Skryim's story are not great. 

In your opinion they are not.

Yes, it is my opinion that only allows me to prefer coherent stories.
Thank you, I did not realize that some people have a strong urge to empathize with elves and dwarves by playing them. I always enjoy engaging in fictional worlds through the eyes of a human, because you know how a human feels. If you play another race, you are just a human pretending to be fantasy creature which kinda ruins the alien nature of the fantasy race.

Is that not the point of playing games and reading stories? To pretend? 

Modifié par Caiden012, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Master Shiori]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


They had an opportunity to do something great and ditched it in favor of something that might be just good as far as I am concerned. It is the potential for improving what they did in Origins with race selection they threw away in favor of more Mass Effect cloning (yet again).

It wasn't "thrown away". Origins were a one time thing, put into DA:O for the sole purpose to help introduce the player to the world and different races that inhabit it. It was never something that Bioware advertised as a recuring feature in future products.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

It is clearly shown in every game that there is a vast difference between how the different races are treated and react to each other in the DA universe and this could of led to a much better implementation, impact and ability to roleplay than a single race which one of the dominant ones in Thedas that has been played multiple times already could possibly be.

It would also be extremely expensive to implement, both within a story and from the finacial point of view. To have the level of reaction and impact that you suggest, they'd either have to record a ton of extra dialogue for npcs or restrict the protagonist to being only an elf or a dwarf. And the story would need to made in a way that it makes sense for every race/class combination (within limits established by DA lore, ofc). 
Without these changes, race selection would be nothing more than a cosmetic change, just like it was in DA:O.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I think the only reason they even say will have background selection is because even they know how bad it will be for them reaction wise if didn't even bother with that and just pulled another Hawke on the fans. Hawke is despised by many people for many reasons but the one reason you will hear more than any other on here is Hawke feeling like Bioware's character and not the players, the illusion of being the players is for many destroyed by the reality of how little impact and choice given to the player on who he or she is and not only what he or she can do plot wise.

Considering how many people choose to play a human in DA:O, as opposed to other races, I doubt there'd be any kind of a significant outrage, apart from the same few people on these forums who keep complaining about the lack of choice when it comes to races.

And Hawke was no more defined than, say, a human noble in DA:O. The only thing that was set in stone was your race and family. Everything else, ranging from gender, looks, class, personality and outlook, was up to you to decide. So I honestly fail to see how he/she was any more a "Bioware's character" than the Warden from DA:O...

[The Elder King]

Maclimes wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Care to give me examples of why? I mean, where couldn't you accurately portray the character?

To me, the big one was a lack of neutral option.

You had, basically, "Good Guy", "Bad Guy", and "Smartass". You never got a more even-tempered, neutral persona. Occasionally, the "Good Guy" option filled that role, but you wouldn't know until after you clicked. I think it could be solved with simply the addition of a "Wise" option. Not good, not bad, and not humorous.

I wouldn't say that Diplomatic and Aggressive were good guy and bad guy, but I agree on having more options in the personality dialogue option.

Modifié par hhh89, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Nerevar-as]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Then you are completely headcanoning Hawke´s personality.

Somewhat, yes. Same way I did with the Warden. I'd be polite and kind to my friends but as soon as someone like Loghain or the Arishok appeared, I was aggressive to them.

I play differently, to me a character has the personality I see on screen.

So Warden was blank-faced all the time?

So Hawke stroke me as a bland and poorly writen person, and can´t headcanon them into a richer personality.

Care to give me examples of why? I mean, where couldn't you accurately portray the character?

Only reason I can think of is that I couldn´t relate to him (or her, tried both). S/he was far less developed than Geralt, Jensen, Thorton or even Shepard. Maybe because of the voice (hate MH), or bad acting (ie. blank face at sibling´s death or the cooments after the ogre battle - I don´t want to know who wrote the middle option). There´s also the paraphrase guessing game, Hawke seldom said something I expected or wanted, regardless of choice or icon. All combined, I found Hawke bland, both himself and in interacions with other characters. I couldn´t sympathize with their plights, and my enjoyment of the game suffered greatly. It´s strange as I feel more empathy even for the NWN Hero, who is mostly blank. But I was really annoyed when they closed the supporting characters´subplots in HotU with the other hero, instead of the one who went through the OC with them.

And yep, Warden was blank faced. But I felt for the things they would go through, something I can´t say of other blank characters, such a in Bethesda games (love the exploration there, something DA2 also lacked).

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 22 octobre 2012 - 10:51 .

[Maclimes]

I wonder how expensive DLC that added in other races would be? Without knowing much more about the game, it's hard to guess.

But, if the game is truly "complete" as is, I would pay extra to add a "dwarf pack" and an "elf pack". I would have two requirements, though:
1. The game must feel like a complete game without them. This is more out of principal.
2. It must have an effect greater than just appearance.