3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Palipride47 wrote...

It was also due to class balance, since you didn't want to have no party mage till Anders or Merrill.

They shouldn't force that on the player.  If he chooses to go no-mage (or all-mage), that should be up to him.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:03 .

[Heimdall]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

What it comes down to to me is that humans are just the most boring race with the most boring culture in Thedas. They're the vanilla flavour. There are no special RP considerations of cultural baggage associated with being a human. The context of culture is, to me, a hugely important part of RP. No matter what flavour of human I have, I'll never get to roleplay the mix of defiant pride and constant self-loathing that comes with playing a Thedosian elf, or the blase attitude towards moral ambiguity, assassination, and murder that comes with playing a Thedosian dwarf. CULTURE is a huuuuge part of RP.

It just frustrates me that Bioware creates the most interesting versions of Fantasy 101 races I've ever seen via unique cultures, lets us roleplay as them, and then railroads us into objectively the least interesting culture of the lot. Three different types of human are just vanilla with sprinkles, vanilla with caramel, and vanilla with oreo. There is no baggage associated to your race, and you lose the strange and unique pleasure of wrapping your mind around an alien culture.

When the dude behind the counter has these cool unique flavours you've never seen before, and then is like "well you can only have the vanilla, but you can LOOK at these other flavours! And you can have toppings on your vanilla! Tha's almost as good!"

No, no it's not.

This may just be coming from the POV of someone who is really, really into the roleplay elements, but I connect with my character on a really deep level and try to sync myself up to Thedosian values as much as possible. NOTHING affects your characters' worldview in Thedas as much as their race, and it just sucks that we get to see all these amazing cultures and then be told we can't actually experience them -- especially when we COULD do so in DA:O.

I disagree on the point that humans are objectively the least interesting.

[Solmanian]

Rawgrim wrote...

Planescape: No clue what to label that game, or even how to approach that one. Its an odd bird, and pretty damn unique. I guess I will give you that one too. the setting certainly has a ton of races, and I can`t see why you couldn`t play as a tiefling or whatever.

Actually it's so ancient, I'm pretty sure they used 2nd edition AD&D: no fancy sub species like half orc, tiefling, half-dragon adn what's not. even drow wasn't yet a playable race.

[RandomSyhn]

Keiran Solaris wrote...
...If we get Hawke 2.0 it won't be because he's human. It'll be because he's too predefined.

one of the most reasonable arguments I've heard in this thread. I personally dissagree having imersed myself in Hawke's character, but I can see where you're coming from and my opinion may just be me playing from a different perspective.

But I agree that it probably won't be the fact that our protagonist is human that would break the game. (If the game is broken at all) I wish people would stop writing off a potentionally enriching experience off of minimal information. I'm not saying the game is goint to be great, it might not even be good. But we don't have the information to determine that yet. I personally won't come to a conclusion till I've had a chance to play it. I think people should at least wait till we have some substanial information before they adamently decide to never play the game, I mean you're clearly on the thread already and following it's production. Following it isn't costing you anything, with the exception of a stress free environment.

Modifié par RandomSyhn, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:13 .

[Solmanian]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I completely agree. I'd like to see what being a human is like in the DA universe not being born into a rich family (which is what we we got in DA:O and DA2). 

Actually in DA2 you start as a pennyless refugee living in your uncle's shack in the bad side of town. You descend from a noble family that has fallen from grace. You pretty much have to earn everything you get. And I like RPing noble born. I'm the PC, I allready feel I'm better than everybody else in the gameworld, royalty included, being a noble born simply validates your sense of superiority.

[Stinker276]

As you can probably tell from my profile picture, I miss my city elf and loved playing with other races. What happened to the "greater customization"?

[The Elder King]

Stinker276 wrote...

As you can probably tell from my profile picture, I miss my city elf and loved playing with other races. What happened to the "greater customization"?

And the fact that there'll be race option means that there'll be no greater customization? Plus, the "greater customization" reference, is abot DA2, DAO, or follower customization? Or all of them?

[Abraham_uk]

Looks at title of thread.

Misreads as "Human Poltergeist!" Awesome! Hell yes!


Oh human protagonist.
Is there a reason for restricting us for humans?

Is it because they want a voiced protagonist and having 14 voice overs cover 8 hours of dialogue each is a little bit expensive?

[Solmanian]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think the availability of multiple Origins in the original game was a feature that appealed to a number of people. I certainly think it's loss in Dragon Age II was to the detriment of the game, since Hawke didn't appeal to me on any level.

Would you have been happier with a Hawke Elf, or a Hawke Dwarf?

I think we would've happy to have the option of making a hawke elf or hawke dwarf; we still wouldn't have been happy with being restricted only to elf hawke or only dwarf hawke. My main would still probably be the human because it's the most "comfortable", but having the option is importent. The real fun with RPing is trying to look at things from a different perspective, and it's RPing most importent lesson. Because of my D&D experience, it's much easier for me to see things from other people perspectives and be emphatic to their needs and wants, and more tolerable to other people opinions even if they differ from mine.

[TMZuk]

Human characters with different backgrounds might go a way to remedy the lack of choice in race.

A way.

Because, when Bioware introduced the origins... the fact that the player defined his or her character through a playable prologue... you struck gold. When you took that away in DA2 you failed epicly. And if - that remains an if, because you haven't said that you will do so - you reintroduce the playable prologue, but only as a human, it is still a fail.

That is because those of us who loved the origins wanted that feature expanded upon. Not reduced and certainly not taken away.

I have a good friend who ~only~ plays grumpy dwarves in fantasy RPGs. He tried to play ME and his comment was: Why can't I play as Urdnot Wrex? ( Krogan, the ME equivalent of dwarves. ) So, for him you can add all the human origins you want, it will not give him his beloved dwarf.

That would have been all right if it had been like that from the beginning. But you gave us the feature in the first game, so no matter what, it will feel as you are making the game less. DA2 is a very underwhelming game in it's own right, but even more so as a sequel to DA:O. DA3 might be an improvement over DA2, but the lack of a feature that existed in the original game will make it feel less than DA:O during character creation already.

I would argue that the first game sets the bar for a series, and defines what it should aspire to. So far, DA as a franchise seems to blowing in the wind without a defining feel or look. And, unfortunately Bioware seems to be continuing that trend.

Modifié par TMZuk, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:34 .

[ImperatorMortis]

I knew it would before it was even confirmed.

Voiced protagonist always means one race. I seriously doubt anyone is surprised by this. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:32 .

[Big I]

I'm disappointed. I'd assumed already that Dalish and Orzammar options were out but thought they might go the route of allowing the character to be a city elf or dwarf.


It's not that I dislike playing a human, it's just that to me playing a character that is a part of a discriminated ethnicity (i.e. elves) and acting in a way that confounds that discrimination (e.g. saving the world) is more interesting than playing a character that plays into expected social roles. If an elf saves the world (like the Grey Warden Garahel) it's a big deal. If a human does it it's business as usual.

[Solmanian]

Urazz wrote...

I think it's for the best to have only one race choice and one origin like in DA2. It allows for extra development of the PC's past and it is the cheapest option for the game since you only need two voice actors to voice the PC character.

Yeah, there's a problem with theory. Oh, I atleast agree it's cheaper so take heart. But' personally I felt most origin, even individualy, had more developed background. A protagonist with sparse background and little personality, including the famous "silent protagonist" (also known as the "mute maniac"), are just tools used to force essimilation. By making the main charecter an empty vessel they allow the player to fill it with himself, making you feel that "you're the hero". But that's not real RPing. Real RPing isn't about what YOU would do in a certain situation, but what would your charecter would do. Not what you, a 21st century person, would do, but what would a medevil nobleman, a nonhuman slave or whatever your RPing would do. One of the first advice they give to roleplayers is "don't base your charecter on yourself". If you're roleplaying yourself, you're not roleplaying at all.  

[Solmanian]

Felya87 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

Felya87 wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

What does the origin in DA:o has to do with the loghain choice? if anyone has extra grievance against loghain it's the human noble, which loghain allied with those who slaughtered his family... The fact that loghain tries to have you killed on a regular basis for the majority of the game, making him a bigger antagonist than the archdeamon. Loghain allways tries to actively, while the archdeamon is simply an omnipresent threat in the background...

Loghain just sell the people of the CE (family memebrers too) to the slavers. put the Alienage in a quarantine and let slaughter the children in the orphanage in suc a terrible way that the vail was broken. but he didn't do nothing to make the CE angry...(sarcasm)

I know it sounds selfish ans self centered but: killing someone you know < killing you. He was trying to kill you for more than half the game. sent assssins after you. Sent his army to hunt you down. By the time you meet him, you aren't on friendly terms.

It's like shepard meeting harbinger and like: "You know, dogging me for 5 years I can understand. Killing milions every day during the invasion made me angry, but you were just doing your job. But shooting down that kid on earth? I'm gonna kill you and your whole motherfrakking race!"

ehm...Loghain tried to kill the Warden, no matter the race. and is not a good "welcome back home" find your father in a cage, ready to be used for a blood magic ritual...and the wife of your cousin is or dead or sell who know where.
is not only painful for the CE, is disgusting and umiliating.
people who where part of your every day, friends, neighbors, relatives...
all treated as less than beasts, selled just for make money...

and if you see how Shep is so taken by the dream of the child...yes, he is even more angry to the reaper because of the child. (one of the feature i don't really like about ME3...for my Shep was ok have those nightmares, but a really renegade Shep shouldn't be so touched by that event. too forced in the character)
I didn't say that the HN haven't reasons to hate Loghain, (shouldn't hate Howe more?) but the CE surely can't fell all that friendly towards hin neither.

I'm trying to make the point that all wardens realy hates his guts, as demonstrated by Alistair abandoning you if you spare loghain's life.

[Solmanian]

nedpepper wrote...

This isn't even close to a deal breaker for me. I still have Origins for that. I don't think it would make sense, at least with the little we know about this game, in the narrative anyway.

Still, I'd bet a thousand bucks there will be multi-player where you can play as dwarf, elf, Dalish elf, Kossith, whether Tal Vosoth or Qunari, Chevaliers, Grey Wardens, etc. So, for people who really want this, there's a silver lining. I wanted to hate Mass Effect's multi-player (and I DO hate that it's connected to the single player game), but playing as Salarians and Qurians and Krogan is actually really fun.

I do hate the MP. I like it by it's own, but because of it Modding can be a bannable offense on origin. Modding is so much more importent regardless of what game you're playing. Modding could've solved most of the complaints at the end of ME3. Because from a game development perspective you can at best satisfy 90% of the people 90% of the time, modding smothes the edges and allos players to customize their gaming experience and thus satisfy 99% of the 99% of the time (some people just can't be pleased).

[Solmanian]

For the record my brother in law only rolepay dwarves, in all RPG's. That's why he played the first game but didn't touch the second. So that's atleast one DA2/3 sale that restriction cost you.

[Solmanian]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

i am pretty sure its because he is Bioware`s character. A human named Hawke. Its like someone creates a character for you. Starts the game, and then lets you play the rest.

Specifically from a character creation point (since it's what you've highlighted), what's the difference between Hawke and Cousland?

Apples and oranges. Couslend is a revenge story, exacting retribution on all those who wronged him, be it human or darkspawn. Hawke's is an ascension story: getting from the lowest of the lows to the highest heights, with all kinds of wacky shenenigens along the way. It's like trying to compare batman and superman: they're both in the justice league, they're both practicaly invincible badasses, but other than that? they're aren't even the same species.

P.S.
Not trying to derail the thread toward a batman VS superman argument.

[Solmanian]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

i am pretty sure its because he is Bioware`s character. A human named Hawke. Its like someone creates a character for you. Starts the game, and then lets you play the rest.

Specifically from a character creation point (since it's what you've highlighted), what's the difference between Hawke and Cousland?

Well Cousland to my knowledge doesn't have a semi-canon default appearence.

So you didn't see the awesome trailer "urn of sacred ashes"? Go see it now. It's awesome. Also couslend is apparently daniel craig.

[Serillen]

I can't say I'm upset over not being able to choose my race. I can sympathize with the people who do want the option, but ultimately I don't think race selection (or even gender choice) is important for a good RPG.

[yeldarbnotned]

I wonder with all these "humey" protags, will they all be the same height and weight too?

[Solmanian]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Felya87 wrote...

Hawke was imposted. Cousland choosen.
I may seem little, but in truth, is a lot. it remind me of "Antz". the theme is that.

Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Yeah, I'm trending the whole answering questions not directed at me. I just assume they're directed at all of us and not a specific person.

AS for human with different background: it will only matter if those backgrounds will have substantial, persistent effect on the story. Shepard backgrounds are an example of the opposite. If the backgrounds have no actual effect on the story, you just shouldn't waste our time: give us a blank charecter, and we'll make up the background. it will actualy be preferable to paper thin meaningless background. The kotor backgrounds are an example of being done right: wether you're the chosen one or simply a former slave, it was a defining part of your storyline.

[Solmanian]

DragonRageGT wrote...

Well, if BW was going to take anything from Skyrim, it certainly should be the character creation and all the playable races...plus dwarves of course!

I don't think they're trying to take anything from skyrim other than his graphics engine. Bioware and bethesda have extremely different and incompatible approaches to RPG games, and both are good.

[Withidread]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Different backgrounds are a mitigating factor, but the loss of racial choice is still disappointing.

[Palipride47]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

It was also due to class balance, since you didn't want to have no party mage till Anders or Merrill.

They shouldn't force that on the player.  If he chooses to go no-mage (or all-mage), that should be up to him.

Oh, no, I agree that it should not be forced. I'm just saying that is why they (Bioware) chose one sibling vs. other to kill off with ogresmash based on class. 

Honestly, I play all mages + Varric, or MageHawke, Anders, Varric, and Aveline as tank. I love some high DPS battle mage. Merrill is uauly my high DPS mage (I pretty load her up on constitution, but don't activate blood magic till she's out of mana, plus lots of AOE spells), Anders debilitates with some single shot stuff (crushing prison) and I support with Creation/Spirit Heal. Varric is for comedic relief and lockpicking/traps. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Solmanian]

Hey maybe DA4 can have a kossith protagonist and we'll finaly see things from the qunari perspective.