3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Palipride47]

Withidread wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Different backgrounds are a mitigating factor, but the loss of racial choice is still disappointing.

I felt like like, if we weren't at least going to get some good, playable backgrounds, then I'd be alright with human.

If we are getting nonplayable backgrounds, our backgrounds and specializations better be well done and fit nicely in NPC reaction, storyline, choice, etc.

If we get Hawke 2.0, (I make blood magic in robes in the street and the Templars just think I'm drunk) I'm done. <_<

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Rawgrim]

Solmanian wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Planescape: No clue what to label that game, or even how to approach that one. Its an odd bird, and pretty damn unique. I guess I will give you that one too. the setting certainly has a ton of races, and I can`t see why you couldn`t play as a tiefling or whatever.

Actually it's so ancient, I'm pretty sure they used 2nd edition AD&D: no fancy sub species like half orc, tiefling, half-dragon adn what's not. even drow wasn't yet a playable race.

Drow and Half-Orc were in the 2ed version. BG2 lets you play as a halforc, if you wish. But Planescape uses a different setting, so there are no drow or Half-Orcs in that particular "world". Tieflings are there, though.

You could also play as a Tiefling in 2ed, actually. One of the Companions in BG2 is a Tiefling as well. One in Planescape too, for that matter. So its not THAT ancient.

[Leoroc]

I dont mind the single race limitation, shame city elf couldnt work just as well though.

[Sidney]

frostajulie wrote...
And thats your OPINION obviously origin stories are a big deal to many people.  Having options to build our characters is a huge part of Rping for many people.

No, they were a big deal for one game. Let's see what games don't have origins stories...oh yeah all the rest of them. Let's see how many don't allow racial selection.

Hell for most of you, since you whine about the redesign of races, just do the following: make your human short, thin, select a hairstyle that ocvers your ears and pretend you've made an elf. There you go, wooo-hoo.

[Rawgrim]

Sidney wrote...

frostajulie wrote...
And thats your OPINION obviously origin stories are a big deal to many people.  Having options to build our characters is a huge part of Rping for many people.

No, they were a big deal for one game. Let's see what games don't have origins stories...oh yeah all the rest of them. Let's see how many don't allow racial selection.

Hell for most of you, since you whine about the redesign of races, just do the following: make your human short, thin, select a hairstyle that ocvers your ears and pretend you've made an elf. There you go, wooo-hoo.

a character doesn`t equal looks. Its personality, goals, motivations, and so on.

[VanDraegon]

I dont care for it. It isn t a deal breaker however since i usually always play a human pc. I just dont like the lack of options by forcing a human only pc on the player. Ultimately we have too little info about DA:I to render an opinion.

A human only pc isnt a step back towards a DA:O style of rpg unfortunately. I buy Bioware rpgs because they always have great stories, regardless of the mechanics of the game and i have no doubts that the next DA game will be the same. I just stridently hope that the next game avoids the glaring issues that so many had with DA2.

I eagerly await more DA:I info.

Modifié par VanDraegon, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:46 .

[Jackums]

I'm completely fine with this.

[Wynne]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Somewhat, as long as they are sympathetic and have some sort of real impact on the game.

Sidney wrote...

Hell for most of you, since you whine about the redesign of races, just do the following: make your human short, thin, select a hairstyle that ocvers your ears and pretend you've made an elf. There you go, wooo-hoo.

That's part of the problem--in past games, we have not been able to make a human that was shorter, or thinner, or more muscular, or rounder, or taller than any other human in the entire game (of the same gender.) 

If we could, I think a lot of people would mind less that they can't be an elf or dwarf because, as you say, they could pretend they actually are one, or perhaps even that they have some sort of hybrid ancestry, whatever. That has not been the case. If it is now, I've not read anything about it and certainly don't expect it to materialize. Judging from the differences between DAO's and DA2's CC, and between ME1 and ME2 and ME3, I don't really expect more than very minor improvements. Considering the lack of racial options has now proceeded to a second game, I certainly wouldn't assume we will suddenly have body type and height available to us. 

It still feels odd to me, since NWN2 let you do an awful lot in that regard. You had width and height sliders, actually. It worked well, looked good, and you could wear anything you wanted. I wish more games would do such things. Having options like those is all I can think of that would really make me say, "Well, okay... another human then, and hopefully just this once more" instead of "I am having trouble being as interested in this game as I wanted to be." 

Modifié par Wynne, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:00 .

[Palipride47]

Sidney wrote...
Hell for most of you, since you whine about the redesign of races, just do the following: make your human short, thin, select a hairstyle that ocvers your ears and pretend you've made an elf. There you go, wooo-hoo.

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:30 .

[Vandicus]

Wynne wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Somewhat, as long as they are sympathetic and have some sort of real impact on the game.

Sidney wrote...

Hell for most of you, since you whine about the redesign of races, just do the following: make your human short, thin, select a hairstyle that ocvers your ears and pretend you've made an elf. There you go, wooo-hoo.

That's part of the problem--in past games, we have not been able to make a human that was shorter, or thinner, or more muscular, or rounder, or taller than any other human in the entire game (of the same gender.) 

If we could, I think a lot of people would mind less that they can't be an elf or dwarf because, as you say, they could pretend they actually are one, or perhaps even that they have some sort of hybrid ancestry, whatever. That has not been the case. If it is now, I've not read anything about it and certainly don't expect it to materialize. Judging from the differences between DAO's and DA2's CC, and between ME1 and ME2 and ME3, I don't really expect more than very minor improvements. Considering the lack of racial options has now proceeded to a second game, I certainly wouldn't assume we will suddenly have body type and height available to us. 

It still feels odd to me, since NWN2 let you do an awful lot in that regard. You had width and height sliders, actually. It worked well, looked good, and you could wear anything you wanted. I wish more games would do such things. Having options like those is all I can think of that would really make me say, "Well, okay... another human then, and hopefully just this once more" instead of "I am having trouble being as interested in this game as I wanted to be." 

And a lot of people have the sticking issue of wanting to play a character with a different culture which is really acknowledged in game by the NPCs and the world at large. I have presented the concept of simple reskins in this thread to see how people would react, and most wanted race to be acknowledged at least to the extent that it would not break versimilitude(which from what we've been told is a problem, an elf Inquisitor would be harmful to the narrative).

Yes there are portions of the fanbase that would be satisfied with a story irrelevant reskin(immersion breaking or not) or the ability to modify their character such that they could pretend, but there are also a good deal of people who wouldn't be.

Now NWN2 is a very different experience. Namely the models don't interact with each other at all. In DA:O, they had to alter scenes involving dwarf characters, particularly the amusing Morrigan kneels down to dwarf height while talking with a dwarf PC in the Witch Hunt DLC. Not impossible, but certainly more difficult to design a system that allows for interaction with PCs of all model types.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I only play humans" is valid feedback. It asserts that to that individual, the option to select other races not being included in a game does not represent a loss of value.

Considering that BioWare's internal metrics assert that this attitude is prevalent among the vast majority of their players, and such statistics are frequently challenged for their accuracy and relevance, individual players speaking up to confirm that people represented in those metrics exist is perfectly acceptable.

On some level I understand the tone argument, that people could state it with a little more nuance.  But this is the BSN, might as well be shouting at clouds. 

I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that Bioware's metrics for racial selection are flat wrong inaccruate or wrong. Now, whether they are relevant or not is a debatable topic. 

[Vandicus]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I only play humans" is valid feedback. It asserts that to that individual, the option to select other races not being included in a game does not represent a loss of value.

Considering that BioWare's internal metrics assert that this attitude is prevalent among the vast majority of their players, and such statistics are frequently challenged for their accuracy and relevance, individual players speaking up to confirm that people represented in those metrics exist is perfectly acceptable.

On some level I understand the tone argument, that people could state it with a little more nuance.  But this is the BSN, might as well be shouting at clouds. 

I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that Bioware's metrics for racial selection are flat wrong inaccruate or wrong. Now, whether they are relevant or not is a debatable topic. 

You should see some of the people in this thread. Turns out the Bioware metrics are all wrong and for every one person who'd want a human PC there's 20 that would want a city elf PC. Then they started comparing the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing. That's BSN for you.

[LobselVith8]

RosaAquafire wrote...

What it comes down to to me is that humans are just the most boring race with the most boring culture in Thedas. They're the vanilla flavour. There are no special RP considerations of cultural baggage associated with being a human. The context of culture is, to me, a hugely important part of RP. No matter what flavour of human I have, I'll never get to roleplay the mix of defiant pride and constant self-loathing that comes with playing a Thedosian elf, or the blase attitude towards moral ambiguity, assassination, and murder that comes with playing a Thedosian dwarf. CULTURE is a huuuuge part of RP.

It just frustrates me that Bioware creates the most interesting versions of Fantasy 101 races I've ever seen via unique cultures, lets us roleplay as them, and then railroads us into objectively the least interesting culture of the lot. Three different types of human are just vanilla with sprinkles, vanilla with caramel, and vanilla with oreo. There is no baggage associated to your race, and you lose the strange and unique pleasure of wrapping your mind around an alien culture. 

When the dude behind the counter has these cool unique flavours you've never seen before, and then is like "well you can only have the vanilla, but you can LOOK at these other flavours! And you can have toppings on your vanilla! Tha's almost as good!"

No, no it's not.

This may just be coming from the POV of someone who is really, really into the roleplay elements, but I connect with my character on a really deep level and try to sync myself up to Thedosian values as much as possible. NOTHING affects your characters' worldview in Thedas as much as their race, and it just sucks that we get to see all these amazing cultures and then be told we can't actually experience them -- especially when we COULD do so in DA:O.

I never had much affinity for the human protagonists provided by Dragon Age. I preferred the unique perspectives offered by the non-human protagonists, who seemed more intriguing than their human counterparts. It's a shame Inquisition won't allow us to see the world of Thedas through the eyes of the elves or the dwarves. Hawke, while restricted to "human only," was also a case of being too passive and too defined; he never felt like my character in the way my Surana Warden did. I don't think the inclusion of backgrounds can change how I feel about the exclusion of racial options.

[TheShadowWolf911]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think the availability of multiple Origins in the original game was a feature that appealed to a number of people. I certainly think it's loss in Dragon Age II was to the detriment of the game, since Hawke didn't appeal to me on any level.

Would you have been happier with a Hawke Elf, or a Hawke Dwarf?

you do not want a answer to that

[ohnotherancor]

A human-only protagonist?

...Incredibly disappointing, but not a deal-breaker on its own.

[Zeleen]

A Really good story, lots of content 1st...  and then.........
Hey... if given a great... GREAT in-game character creator.. and the chance to change your character's looks in game (like the emporium in DA:2)
AND a toolset.. (at least in the future if not right away at launch just incase you wanna make some nifty armor, etc.)
AND different backgrounds, etc to choose from... that actually impact your story line..
Yeah - humans are good!!

Modifié par Zeleen, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Vandicus wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I only play humans" is valid feedback. It asserts that to that individual, the option to select other races not being included in a game does not represent a loss of value.

Considering that BioWare's internal metrics assert that this attitude is prevalent among the vast majority of their players, and such statistics are frequently challenged for their accuracy and relevance, individual players speaking up to confirm that people represented in those metrics exist is perfectly acceptable.

On some level I understand the tone argument, that people could state it with a little more nuance.  But this is the BSN, might as well be shouting at clouds. 

I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that Bioware's metrics for racial selection are flat wrong inaccruate or wrong. Now, whether they are relevant or not is a debatable topic. 

You should see some of the people in this thread. Turns out the Bioware metrics are all wrong and for every one person who'd want a human PC there's 20 that would want a city elf PC. Then they started comparing the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing. That's BSN for you.

No.  A few individuals who want racial choice then started drawing that comparison.  By no means did everyone who wants racial choice participate in that, and I'll thank you to stop making generalizations like that.

[soo-sama]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I probably wouldn't have liked it, then. I wasn't a fan of Hawke; I found him to be very passive, and reactive instead of proactive. Doing nothing about Petrice, doing nothing in the Bethany/Cullen situation, doing nothing about Quentin's note, doing nothing about Meredith's dictatorship for three years. I wouldn't have liked him as an elf or a dwarf if he remained the same. Just my two cents, of course.

That's fine.  I think that disliking Hawke for his passivity is a fair critique of DA2.  The point I'm making is that I've seen some state that DA2 didn't have racial selection, and DA2 wasn't successful, and to the extent that the lack of race choice was a significant cause of this.

I think it's important to note, however, that it's not just "I wanted elves/dwarves."  It's that "I wanted elves/dwarves and all the extra stuff that comes with it."  Which, in my opinion, muddies up the water on precisely what people are looking for.  What exactly is "the extra stuff that comes with it" though?  And it can be tricky to find consensus regarding this too.

It then starts to become "can the extra stuff only be provided with different races?"  Now, if you're specifically hoping to explore and learn more about the Dalish as a Dalish Elf character, then yeah this is definitely going to be disappointing, since that won't be possible.

So for me, it becomes a quest for trying to figure out what the extra stuff is that people feel is missing, since I believe the issue is more than just "I'd like my character to be an elf or a dwarf."  (Although for some people, that's as simple as it is for them!)

I really like your notion.


Since the argument between you guys at Bioware and this community started I kept asking myself what it is that bugs me so much of not being able to play as a non-human in DA2. And honestly, I had been eager to don the skin of an elf and dwarf (or even a kossith) in the next DragonAge again.

So thank you for that comment. I found my answer. It isn't necessarily bound by race. For me it is essentially the conflict, the differences that come with being one of the minorities and embracing an, more or less, alien culture.
To be the advocate for my social, cultural and historical backround. Or just to forsake it. To be pried by others. Or being the flagbearer of my people. It's like living in a foreign country with a different culture. Every individual wants to be special in some way. That's what appeals to me. At this point I recognise that, for the most part, I might substitute the aforementioned matter with a, if not the, race question - How so?

To pick up your example: Instead of playing a dalish elf, why not play a human that has been raised be a dalish clan. Might be a very simple (and maybe not feasible) example. But this background still provides a social and cultural focus with consequences depending on your (micro-)actions. These are incredible important to me as they refine my experience, imbue the story with more detail and create a flow.

I'm saddened to hear that those backgrounds won't be playable as in Origins. I didn't like those history flags you got to set for Shepard in MassEffect amongst others things that might be relevant regarding the race question (to which I will get back to in a few minutes). But I'd favour alternatives that aren't too close in cultural/social/historical ties.

A prime example for an option you have already provided yourselves:  - The Qunari - Race doesn't matter. True for a human. Well, it's a good idea pro multiple races in a future title, when, maybe, the game will kick off much farther north. While I do not expect to play a Qunari human in a DragonAge game that bears the title "Inquisition", the Qunari are a second example and I endorse such and more exotic options.
Explicitly not involved should be the choices whether my character had been, e.g., conscripted years ago as a peasant or a beggar. And if I remember correctly, something along those lines was even planned but canned for DA: Origins in regards to the Grey Warden conscription. A human fisher from Redcliffe, no? Maybe that's the reason it was cut in the end and not one of those finally implemented origins.

What I mean are the day to day experiences we all might live through, identify with and naturally can relate to. I understand that the schism between the mages and the rest of
society, especially in DA2, is somewhat like this, but on a whole other
level and with a different intention and as a narrative tool. "The Mages" is too large a concept, too black & white already.
Just to rule this one out. But, of course, one should still be able to play as a mage.

As a whole, I couldn't pinpoint an array of concepts, but the human raised by the Dalish doesn't have a bad ring to it. My hopes are by now, that we will have extensive, backround exclusive
dialogue during the whole game. Not just some snippets of conversation
and the mandatory "alibi quest" to solve an issue from our dark, burdened
past.

Getting to the aspect of Shepard and then, Hawk. As I recognise MassEffect and the character of Shepard as something different, there are similarities between Hawk and Shepard. Long story short, I always thought of Hawk as just another companion (the same goes for Shepard). It just felt different. The Warden left enough leeway to your imagination because of the design's suggestive nature. This constitutes a major break, which may be another minor issue for some people.

Finally there is, beside some other minor aspects, always the alure of
physical distinction that comes with being alien. A tall gamer
might like to play a dwarf, just because it's fun from another
perspective. The same goes for gender, by the way.

We all just want to customize our alter ego some more. Which, again, we imagine works best when we are allowed to chose a race and embark on a journey I hopefully elaborated in such a way to get the point across. Well, my point at least.


In the end it comes down to "being a human ourselves is usually the 'status quo'". Other races equals mostly what we pleasantly think of, as that extra stuff. So please take this as an honest answer and additional thoughts.


Thanks again for your professional input and concern. I'm looking forward to this one-year marathon of ante-release discussion, speculation and information.



Cheers

[Vandicus]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I only play humans" is valid feedback. It asserts that to that individual, the option to select other races not being included in a game does not represent a loss of value.

Considering that BioWare's internal metrics assert that this attitude is prevalent among the vast majority of their players, and such statistics are frequently challenged for their accuracy and relevance, individual players speaking up to confirm that people represented in those metrics exist is perfectly acceptable.

On some level I understand the tone argument, that people could state it with a little more nuance.  But this is the BSN, might as well be shouting at clouds. 

I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that Bioware's metrics for racial selection are flat wrong inaccruate or wrong. Now, whether they are relevant or not is a debatable topic. 

You should see some of the people in this thread. Turns out the Bioware metrics are all wrong and for every one person who'd want a human PC there's 20 that would want a city elf PC. Then they started comparing the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing. That's BSN for you.

No.  A few individuals who want racial choice then started drawing that comparison.  By no means did everyone who wants racial choice participate in that, and I'll thank you to stop making generalizations like that.

Kindly point out the generalization you allege I made. I can highlight where I said "some". I can also show you where the people claiming that they represented the majority also began making the racial cleansing comparisons(these were the same posters).

If my post was not clear enough.

There are people who explicitly contradicted Bioware's metrics in this thread. They(meaning the people mentioned in the previous sentence) proceeded to compare the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Well...

I liked being able to have choices regarding race in DA:O but mostly because the background stories varied. I suppose since Bioware is still offering varied backgrounds in DA3, race is not an issue, am I right? 

What struck me about the twitter update from Laidlaw was when he said something to the effect of:

"Sorry, for those who love elves and dwarves, but long term I’d like to see all four races playable. Future plans!"   


I'm intrigued by the idea of a possible 4th game - perhaps one that does incorporate additional races. 

Call me cynical, but this seems like a cheap way to try to mitiage some of the disappointement that the "racial choice" minority is feeling. 

ANYWAYS.

Backgrounds are good. Very good. I think they should have real, long term consequences, even so much as the appearance and age of your character. So you pick an origin that might give the possibility of starting as an older protaganist (sweet maker please) as well as a young one. They could also have some sort of tangiable benifit, such as stat or skill bonus skills (So, circle apprentice  has a bonus to a spell lore type of skill, apostate to herbalism, templer recruit to combat training, retired yeoman to survival and so on).

[xsamplexample]

 Eeeeh, I feel like this is the first of many disappointing announcements about this game....

[Harle Cerulean]

Vandicus wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I only play humans" is valid feedback. It asserts that to that individual, the option to select other races not being included in a game does not represent a loss of value.

Considering that BioWare's internal metrics assert that this attitude is prevalent among the vast majority of their players, and such statistics are frequently challenged for their accuracy and relevance, individual players speaking up to confirm that people represented in those metrics exist is perfectly acceptable.

On some level I understand the tone argument, that people could state it with a little more nuance.  But this is the BSN, might as well be shouting at clouds. 

I don't think anyone has seriously claimed that Bioware's metrics for racial selection are flat wrong inaccruate or wrong. Now, whether they are relevant or not is a debatable topic. 

You should see some of the people in this thread. Turns out the Bioware metrics are all wrong and for every one person who'd want a human PC there's 20 that would want a city elf PC. Then they started comparing the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing. That's BSN for you.

No.  A few individuals who want racial choice then started drawing that comparison.  By no means did everyone who wants racial choice participate in that, and I'll thank you to stop making generalizations like that.

Kindly point out the generalization you allege I made. I can highlight where I said "some". I can also show you where the people claiming that they represented the majority also began making the racial cleansing comparisons(these were the same posters).

If my post was not clear enough.

There are people who explicitly contradicted Bioware's metrics in this thread. They(meaning the people mentioned in the previous sentence) proceeded to compare the absence of racial options to ethnic cleansing.

No, my apologies, I misread the context and thought that the "some" meant "everyone who wants racial choice," both minimizing how many of us there are, and generalizing the poor behavior.  My bad, I see now that wasn't what you meant at all.

[Harle Cerulean]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Well...

I liked being able to have choices regarding race in DA:O but mostly because the background stories varied. I suppose since Bioware is still offering varied backgrounds in DA3, race is not an issue, am I right? 

What struck me about the twitter update from Laidlaw was when he said something to the effect of:

"Sorry, for those who love elves and dwarves, but long term I’d like to see all four races playable. Future plans!"   


I'm intrigued by the idea of a possible 4th game - perhaps one that does incorporate additional races. 

Call me cynical, but this seems like a cheap way to try to mitiage some of the disappointement that the "racial choice" minority is feeling. 

ANYWAYS.

Backgrounds are good. Very good. I think they should have real, long term consequences, even so much as the appearance and age of your character. So you pick an origin that might give the possibility of starting as an older protaganist (sweet maker please) as well as a young one. They could also have some sort of tangiable benifit, such as stat or skill bonus skills (So, circle apprentice  has a bonus to a spell lore type of skill, apostate to herbalism, templer recruit to combat training, retired yeoman to survival and so on).

If you're cynical, so am I, because that's how I feel about it too.  Besides, we know exactly where possible future plans of racial choice end up: with a human PC, because of resources and a preference for stories focusing on human PCs.  See: DA2 and DA3.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:14 .

[marshalleck]

Nah, they can make the races playable and customizable in the PVP MP mode.