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[silentassassin264]

Palipride47 wrote...

Withidread wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Fair, and I can understand that.

Does human with different backgrounds somewhat mitigate this?

Different backgrounds are a mitigating factor, but the loss of racial choice is still disappointing.

I felt like like, if we weren't at least going to get some good, playable backgrounds, then I'd be alright with human.

If we are getting nonplayable backgrounds, our backgrounds and specializations better be well done and fit nicely in NPC reaction, storyline, choice, etc.

If we get Hawke 2.0, (I make blood magic in robes in the street and the Templars just think I'm drunk) I'm done. <_<

This so much.  I am willing to give up race and background stuff if the in game customization of choices, etc is good.  If we get DA2 again with no one recognizing the blood mage Hawke when blood magic is such a severe issue in Kirkwall that the nice adorable Merrill was demonized, it is a no sell me.  If my choices and ingame stuff sucks like DA2, I cannot buy this game.

[Vandicus]

Harle Cerulean wrote...


No, my apologies, I misread the context and thought that the "some" meant "everyone who wants racial choice," both minimizing how many of us there are, and generalizing the poor behavior.  My bad, I see now that wasn't what you meant at all.

Entirely understandable. Misunderstandings/miscommunication happen all the time(even more so over the net where text doesn't carry tone).

I've mostly spent my time in this thread talking with the most dramatic members of the forum, or the members of the forum who don't understand why such decisions are being made(instead blaming protagonist VA or simply viewing it as an arbitrary move), and this might perhaps make my come off as anti-racial options.

To make my general position on this topic perfectly clear, human is not my personal preference for a PC. My "canon" playthrough utilizes a dwarf commoner Warden and the dwarven culture would be the one I'd prefer to play through most(followed closely by Qunari, though that has more to do with curiosity than admiration for their ethics or cultural standards), but I understand and sympathize with the explanation that we've been given, namely that the narrative would suffer for multiple racial options in this particular game(though Gaider has also told us in this thread that they want to make all four races playable in the future, something which I'm very excited for).

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Nymiria]

The only thing that concerns me is play through. In DAO, I played male and female human, female mage, female elf. Each time I played a warden I was able to vary my game just enough to keep me interested in playing DAO at least 4 times. As just a human, and it better be male and female, I feel it will limit play thru.

[Zakhutson]

Excitement --        ;

I understand the difficulty
and  technical limitations of building a
gameworld that makes each Race/class combination feel valid and not just a cheap
repaint with a few extra lines thrown in here and there to point out “hey you! your
different”.

I don’t understand why (as
my lurking from the side-lines leads me to believe) a more difficult and technically
demanding production has fewer creative rewards.

A game that manages to wow
both with epic story and a story that adapts to how you’re playing (race/class/play
style) seems worthwhile. Over a static model that allows easy to guesses how
the player goes about playing. Much like how in DA2 only rogues could dual wield
and then only daggers and the odd axe (I’ll admit, didn’t play anything other
than a mage in DA2). Over how in DA:O weapons were usable by anyone as long as
you had the stat requirements. (not that I ever used the dual wield in DA:O
since shield bashing is too much fun.) but my point stands. When the guess work
becomes easier to do because of how players are forced to play, I don’t know.
Seems a bit like taking the easy way out.  Just my two cents.

"Nothing in the world
is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty... I
have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied
a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well." 

-- Theodore Roosevelt 

 

PS: If your using this to
gather responses to how players are going to react, and then adjust accordingly
I won’t be surprised in the slightest.

[Gibb_Shepard]

As long as there are a variety of backgrounds that do have significance, i'm completely fine with it. I only played other races in DAO because i preferred their origins anyway.

[The Six Path of Pain]

hhh89 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...



I found really jarring that Eamon, 3rd Ferelden most powerful noble, and in a country not that fond of the Chantry, couldn´t prevent his son getting sent to the Circle yet in a much stricter Kirkwall money would do it. Especially considering Meredith´s personality.

Well, yeah, I agree with you, Expecially considering that there was a known famous mage in Honnleath.<_<
Though I couldn't understand what prevented Meredith to arrest Merrill and Anders in Act 2. Hawke doesn't have the power to protect them in Act 2 (it's clearly stated that Anders is free because he's a friend of the Champion). There's still the possibility she didn't find about them in Act 2, but that would mean she's an incompetent templar, other than extremist.

That always bothered me so much even with Hawke,no way someone as crazy as Meredith would let any mage be free...Plot Hole Much:mellow:

[Palipride47]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...



I found really jarring that Eamon, 3rd Ferelden most powerful noble, and in a country not that fond of the Chantry, couldn´t prevent his son getting sent to the Circle yet in a much stricter Kirkwall money would do it. Especially considering Meredith´s personality.

Well, yeah, I agree with you, Expecially considering that there was a known famous mage in Honnleath.<_<
Though I couldn't understand what prevented Meredith to arrest Merrill and Anders in Act 2. Hawke doesn't have the power to protect them in Act 2 (it's clearly stated that Anders is free because he's a friend of the Champion). There's still the possibility she didn't find about them in Act 2, but that would mean she's an incompetent templar, other than extremist.

That always bothered me so much even with Hawke,no way someone as crazy as Meredith would let any mage be free...Plot Hole Much:mellow:

I could see your Act 2 money (and your kissy face, if you are face chomping them) protecting them, but when you are just some free Lowtown slummer (who doesn't have protection from the people you got sold to), I don't get it....

And if you are a blood mage who sides with the Templars, you are still made Viscount/ess?

Even when some cousin of yours merely displaying magic traits some time ago ruins your Grandaddy's chance (said in codex- I read those too much, and this reads like this with all imports)

My problem with the impression of Hawke passivity, is that the timescales are really, REALLY long. You are seeing maybe four years where you have input, out of 7-8 years. So, you've let the situation fester for years and done, what, exactly? The format of the story makes you feel like less of a hero than Varric is making you out to be, which bothers some people. I wouldn't mind being "not a standard hero" but not in the way it was delivered (which was, admittingly, tedious) 

I've rambled so much I don't think I make sense anymore.....

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Allan Schumacher]

soo-sama wrote...


Since the argument between you guys at Bioware and this community started I kept asking myself what it is that bugs me so much of not being able to play as a non-human in DA2. And honestly, I had been eager to don the skin of an elf and dwarf (or even a kossith) in the next DragonAge again.

So thank you for that comment. I found my answer. It isn't necessarily bound by race. For me it is essentially the conflict, the differences that come with being one of the minorities and embracing an, more or less, alien culture.
To be the advocate for my social, cultural and historical backround. Or just to forsake it. To be pried by others. Or being the flagbearer of my people. It's like living in a foreign country with a different culture. Every individual wants to be special in some way. That's what appeals to me. At this point I recognise that, for the most part, I might substitute the aforementioned matter with a, if not the, race question - How so?

I think the advantage the races have is that as a fan who doesn't have much information, it's easy to conceive of how the game would be different as an elf or a dwarf because those differences are established in DAO (and even DA2).  With a more vague reference to backgrounds that aren't playable, people will naturally gravitate to Mass Effect since it's the most similar thing.  Comparing picking those to full playable Origins is naturally going to be an unfavourable comparison.

I actually agree that making the backgrounds playable would make them more interesting (it's just easier to get that level of investment).  It comes down to picking our battles for where we want to allocate our time and which content we think is essential for the game that we want to make to try to put out the best possible game we can.


It's on us to deliver on making the backgrounds important, and if someone is skeptical I think that that is fine (I encourage it).  I don't ask and dig deeper to just go "See!  You don't need races after all!  MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!"  <.<

We understand that for some, simply being a dwarf is cool.  They may not even care about any implications.  They just want to be a dwarf because they see Dwarves as badass mofos who don't take no crap from no one!  Some of them will be "Well this sucks... but eh I'll survive."  Others will be "Well... you're gonna have to do something pretty darn special to hold my interest then...."  Those people are the one most affected by this decision, since they just can't play as a dwarf.

But I do think that some of the disappointment is because people lose that easy to conceive differences that the races give, and if there's some way to make a better game based upon still improving player agency and allowing for roleplaying, then that's still stuff to try to achieve.


Granted, from a player history and "head canon" (I don't really like that term, but whatever), I do think it's still value added if someone can imagine that their Dalish Elf motivation is due to whatever Elf specific reasoning that makes the most sense for them.  In that regard I empathize with those that won't be able to do something like that if that's what they were hoping for.

At the same time, however, I don't really feel that the racial selection is required for creating better roleplaying experience.  I have played enough RPGs that didn't have any difference in chargen aside from "What class do you want to be?" that I still felt provided great roleplaying experiences.  I think stating "well those games didn't have multiple races" is a red herring (a game like KOTOR does have multiple races but still works well as a human only PC) in that people are associating the expected differences in gameplay/experience that exists with what should be present with different races.

It's one thing to have a preference for those differences because you're a big fan of the elves/dwarves, but too many games with human only characters have shown that roleplaying opportunities do not necessitate multiple races.

[Anomaly-]

Disappointing, though not a deal breaker if there is still sufficient differentiation both background and class wise.

I did enjoy the racial options, though.

[TheShadowWolf911]

i suppose i'll be alright if i can be Chasind (admittedly i would pay for DLC that gave me race choice cause im a sucker like that), a Mage origin where you were some Chasind Mystic would be pretty cool.

[Maria Caliban]

I selective quoting.

[Gamemako]

My two cents:

I... am sort of torn. I like games where you have a truly defined character. I don't mind games where you are more or less a blank slate. I'm actually most disappointed with the way I know you're doing it, which is like Hawke. Hawke was not a character -- there was no development or definition. At the same time, he had a background that should develop a very definite personality. He may have fought honorably alongside Cailan, which is just bizarre when he's a self-centered dick who kills people because "he bothered me". The setup fell into a dead zone that just made no sense, especially with the long gaps between Acts that further reveal a disconnect between the Hawke-as-blank-slate and Hawke-as-predefined-character. I feel like that sort of lapse perpetuated into ME3, where dialogue and actions would occur that were counter to the Shepard that the player had been building. The player has to either be able to place himself in the role of the character (blank-slate characters, like many old WRPGs) or must see himself as a director of existing individuals (pre-defined characters, as you most frequently see in JRPGs). The middle ground just gives the player direction over an empty husk who occasionally defies his orders for reasons unknowable.

I honestly would prefer if DA3's protagonist were gender-locked with a pre-defined history. If he can't be a blank slate, then he should be a person.

[Pauravi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Also have no problem with this. As long as I have gender choice and can change how my characters look, I'm ok.

First they came for the elves, and I said nothing, because I did not play elves...

This is literally the response from some people.  I'm amazed no one sees it.

There are better defenses of the human-only protagonist than this.

They're not defending the human-only protagonist, they're saying that it doesn't bother them.
In a thread that actually solicits your opinion on the matter at the very outset, that's not an unreasonable response.

[Huntress]

"Dragon Age 3 to use a human protagonist"

I wouldn't mind playing a Human if this human was someone like Hawke, who has the choices to side with either mages or templars, my BIG problem is playing as Inquisitor.
Playing as Inquisitor is not a choice is who the next hero is and what he represents in Thedas, I in particular can't role play as that.

Thedas is turning to be a 1 race, one religion and one believes, anyway is going to take alot of explaining for me to even believe the idea of the inquisition accepting mages to hunt other mages after what happen in Kirkwall..the mere idea of it sounds as preposterous as the blood-mages in Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker. ( laughing)

I wanted so badly to play an Elf this time around, I think elves could get revenge now that the chantry is on their knees and beat the hell out of the divine.. meh I always wanted to do that since DAO..
oh well one can only dream to play as an elf in DA4.

[Allan Schumacher]

Playing as Inquisitor is not a choice is who the next hero is and what he represents in Thedas, I in particular can't role play as that.

I'd suggest waiting for more information to come out.

[Allan Schumacher]

The backgrounds will not be playable (I thought this was already clear actually).

[Palipride47]

I'll wait for more info on how nonplayable will be implemented BEFORE I freak.

[MiSS Provencale]

Hello to all! I am very pleased that the protagonist is human. Here, I just hope that for once the hero is female even though we already have the possibility to choose the sex. I also wanted to bring my encouragement to the team of developers. I know that sometimes the pressure is very difficult and some may be cruel. I think DA3 will surprise us. However I know that many of you are disappointed not to choose the breed.

[Palipride47]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The backgrounds will not be playable (I thought this was already clear actually).

I guess not. Though you may spark more fan rage, if the people who are already upset didn't know. Or less, hard to say. 

But I assume now people will respond to you more than ME, closer to how Race in DA generated response? That is why I love the races (that, and some new cultures to explore) 

If the backgrounds (eve as nonplayable ones) can do that, I'll be happy. Dunno about others, though. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Gamemako]

MiSS Provencale wrote...

Hello to all! I am very pleased that the protagonist is human. Here, I just hope that for once the hero is female even though we already have the possibility to choose the sex.

I would like a gender-locked female character. They won't do it, but I'd like it.

[MiSS Provencale]

Me too <3<3

[marshalleck]

Gamemako wrote...

MiSS Provencale wrote...

Hello to all! I am very pleased that the protagonist is human. Here, I just hope that for once the hero is female even though we already have the possibility to choose the sex.

I would like a gender-locked female character. They won't do it, but I'd like it.

Why wouldn't they? It worked for Bayonetta. 

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Playing as Inquisitor is not a choice is who the next hero is and what he represents in Thedas, I in particular can't role play as that.

I'd suggest waiting for more information to come out.

Waiting for more information isn't nearly as fun or interesting as wild speculation.

[Allan Schumacher]

Palipride47 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The backgrounds will not be playable (I thought this was already clear actually).

I guess not. Though you may spark more fan rage, if the people who are already upset didn't know. Or less, hard to say. 

But I assume now people will respond to you more than ME, closer to how Race in DA generated response? That is why I love the races (that, and some new cultures to explore) 

If the backgrounds (eve as nonplayable ones) can do that, I'll be happy. Dunno about others, though. 

If it sparks rage, so be it.  Better to be direct about something like this IMO.

I actually only have a cursory knowledge of the backgrounds.  I have quickly read over what they are, and have seen the odd reference to them in the bits where I am in game.  I do know of some ideas on where/how they will come into play for some of the major plots (though I haven't actually experienced said major plots) which do sound interesting.

I am hoping that they provide enough variety and roleplaying opportunities.  I don't know why ME's were as simple/straight forward as they were, but based on what David has said going forward, at the very least writers seem very cognizant of the hope that they'll be referenced more frequently and with more significance than ME.