3855 réponses à ce sujet

[DominantDjDark]

ianvillan wrote...

Icinix wrote...

renjility wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...

Besides, from what I've read most people stick with Human anyway, so it's not even an issue. 

This thread would not be 60 pages long if that was true.

Based on analytic data - the percentage of players who picked a race other than human is miniscule.


...one of the reasons why I hate analytic data being used in games.

Edit: Here http://social.biowar...21847/1#5822035

Also if Bioware is going to release one bit of data they hould release all the rest as well, like how many people played male or female, how many people played what class, how many people played what specializations and how many people choses which ending.

Because if Bioware are going to justify the desisions they make on useing feedback data then they should use the data on all other aspects as well.
I would guess that arcane warrior was one of the most played mage specs yet it was cut, I would guess the dark ritual was one of the most popular endings yet that is not going to be used, so why is it ok to use feedback data for some aspects of the game but not others.

good point, honestly Arcane War was my favorite spec. I had alot of playthroughs on DA:O, but my fave's had to be my Arcane warriors.

and, hopefully we get those kinds of things back...if we do, well, I got one thing to say to that....
http://i.imgur.com/ViY7j.gif%C2%A0

[ianvillan]

hhh89 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...



Also if Bioware is going to release one bit of data they hould release all the rest as well, like how many people played male or female, how many people played what class, how many people played what specializations and how many people choses which ending.

Because if Bioware are going to justify the desisions they make on useing feedback data then they should use the data on all other aspects as well.
I would guess that arcane warrior was one of the most played mage specs yet it was cut, I would guess the dark ritual was one of the most popular endings yet that is not going to be used, so why is it ok to use feedback data for some aspects of the game but not others.

For that they should create a canon playthrough.

Why if the data Bioware recieves shows it is the most chosen choice then it should be used, just like human being the most chosen race is the only one being used.

[DominantDjDark]

Icinix wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...
mmhm. Yea, the cinematic work would take some working, and as for the voiced protagonist, well, it's too late for that to change, Dragon Age has evolved with the times...so to speak...reminds me of what happened Between Star wars: Kotor and Star wars: ToR *shudders*

Oh God! I'm playing ToR at the moment (Single Player - I hate the MMO side of things) - but yeah - About every minute I keep thinking "Why didn't they just make a KOTOR3?" - and the damn dialgoue wheel says something unexpected fifty percent of the time....so then I think thank god they didn't destroy a single player KOTOR3 experience.

Yea, I always wanted a Kotor 3...MMO's tend to ruin game stories, I had about, 100 playthroughs of Kotor....atleast, played ToR though, but it kinda gets annoying after a while, might have better graphics and such compared to KotoR, but that doesn't mean it'll ever beat it. <3

[AlexJK]

ianvillan wrote...

Why if the data Bioware recieves shows it is the most chosen choice then it should be used, just like human being the most chosen race is the only one being used.

This is illogical. Disregarding previous choices is NOT the same as reducing (one very specific) choice in a future game.

[The Elder King]

ianvillan wrote...

hhh89 wrote...



For that they should create a canon playthrough.

Why if the data Bioware recieves shows it is the most chosen choice then it should be used, just like human being the most chosen race is the only one being used.

It's a slight different issue, but I wouldn't have a problem with having a canon DR playhtrough for DAO in the next games. Instead, it's a thing I really want.
About the lack of the Arcane Warrior spec, they cut off other things which I think were really popular, like the DW warrior. I hope those things will return back in DA3.

[AlexJK]

Icinix wrote...

Actually a lot of those arguments were made by BioWare - some way back in DA2 release information and after release - and more recently in some previous posts about it too. They're legitimate reasons - but then from someone with my point of view - it becomes an argument for the overall direction of non combat portions of the game.

I've seen Bioware explain how supporting different races could create some production issues, for example voiceover (if we assume that a human doesn't sound the same as a dwarf or an elf) and character height in cinematics. I have not seen them use this as an "excuse" for not doing it.

[Icinix]

ianvillan wrote...

Icinix wrote...

renjility wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...

Besids, from what I've read most people stick with Human anyway, so it's not even an issue. 

This thread would not be 60 pages long if that was true.

Based on analytic data - the percentage of players who picked a race other than human is miniscule.


...one of the reasons why I hate analytic data being used in games.

Edit: Here http://social.biowar...21847/1#5822035

Also if Bioware is going to release one bit of data they hould release all the rest as well, like how many people played male or female, how many people played what class, how many people played what specializations and how many people choses which ending.

Because if Bioware are going to justify the desisions they make on useing feedback data then they should use the data on all other aspects as well.
I would guess that arcane warrior was one of the most played mage specs yet it was cut, I would guess the dark ritual was one of the most popular endings yet that is not going to be used, so why is it ok to use feedback data for some aspects of the game but not others.

Yeah - it would be really interesting to see in the first case. As for the arguments against it - even if you take the art / economic discussion out of it - just how much context for the use of it are you actually getting?

I would love to see how the results would turn out if the first part of the game was you taking control of an origin of one of each race for the start of the origins, then play through for a bit before making a final choice on which character you would continue on with. I wonder if the results would be different?

Regardless - the use of analytics in game development is something I'm pretty passionate about - so I tend to waffle on in a biased manner for quite some time...so I'm going to go eat liverwurst.

[The Elder King]

AlexJK wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Why if the data Bioware recieves shows it is the most chosen choice then it should be used, just like human being the most chosen race is the only one being used.

This is illogical. Disregarding previous choices is NOT the same as reducing (one very specific) choice in a future game.

 
They're two different issues, yes. But the OGB question is a thing that I think they should resolve in the future, one way or another.

[zyntifox]

Icinix wrote...

renjility wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...

Besids, from what I've read most people stick with Human anyway, so it's not even an issue. 

This thread would not be 60 pages long if that was true.

Based on analytic data - the percentage of players who picked a race other than human is miniscule.


...one of the reasons why I hate analytic data being used in games.

Edit: Here http://social.biowar...21847/1#5822035

I know that the devs don't like this but i consider it relevant. But only 18% of mass effect players play female Shepard( http://www.rockpaper...ers-play-female/), should they skip using resources to include female Shepard and use those resources on other things in the game instead? No i don't think so for the same reason using the numbers in DA:O to justify not having multiple races in DA2 and DA3 is. I suspect people wants to have the false equivalence debate but i consider cut content = cut content.

By the way i would not have been disappointed by not including this feature if it wasn't in one of the previous games. Would i have been happy to include multiple races in DA3 given that there were none in DA:O and DA2? Yes, but i wouldn't be disappointed if it didn't happend since Bioware wouldn't have previously showed that this feature works.

Modifié par Cstaf, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Icinix]

renjility wrote...

Icinix wrote...

renjility wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...

Besids, from what I've read most people stick with Human anyway, so it's not even an issue. 

This thread would not be 60 pages long if that was true.

Based on analytic data - the percentage of players who picked a race other than human is miniscule.


...one of the reasons why I hate analytic data being used in games.

Edit: Here http://social.biowar...21847/1#5822035

The percentage may be small, but with a sample of millions of gamers, that is still a lot of people who appreciated the option. And when you are just going to base yourself on this, you can remove all choices and just keep the most popular option for everything. Say Loghain dead, Alistair king, the werewolf curse lifted, Connor saved without killing Isolde, etc. The majority of the gamers also did not complete the game. So perhaps we can skip the ending altogether too (may not be that much of a loss if it means not a crappy cliffhanger:unsure:)? 

lol - This is one of many, many reasons why I'm against analytics.

In my perfect world - a game allows you to be one of numerous races, totally dictate the history and dialogue of the player in the future, and all choices exist persisently and ripple through the entire game. 

Basically holo deck.

[AlexJK]

renjility wrote...

I can't speak for others, but I daresay that more insight in Bioware's reasoning would help me understand instead of just the "no" I see now.

I don't mean to be blunt about this, but it's not Bioware's job to make you understand. They've explained that DA3's protagonist will be human "largely, for story reasons, but also customization." (source) If you choose not to believe that, and instead to make up some idea that they are lazy, that is your problem not theirs.

[Icinix]

AlexJK wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Actually a lot of those arguments were made by BioWare - some way back in DA2 release information and after release - and more recently in some previous posts about it too. They're legitimate reasons - but then from someone with my point of view - it becomes an argument for the overall direction of non combat portions of the game.

I've seen Bioware explain how supporting different races could create some production issues, for example voiceover (if we assume that a human doesn't sound the same as a dwarf or an elf) and character height in cinematics. I have not seen them use this as an "excuse" for not doing it.

I don't think you'll ever see them use anything as an 'excuse' as much.

But its certainly not making an argument for them to have it in the game.

[ianvillan]

AlexJK wrote...

renjility wrote...

I can't speak for others, but I daresay that more insight in Bioware's reasoning would help me understand instead of just the "no" I see now.

I don't mean to be blunt about this, but it's not Bioware's job to make you understand. They've explained that DA3's protagonist will be human "largely, for story reasons, but also customization." (source) If you choose not to believe that, and instead to make up some idea that they are lazy, that is your problem not theirs.

If thats the case then fine but all Bioware devs should stop using the justification of feedback data, Bioware said the same data was the reason hawke was human in DA2 until some people pointed out that they had decided to go with human before DAO was even released.

[fchopin]

Pauravi wrote...

Tal_Elmar wrote...

I'm not assuming, I'm just pessimistic. And with a good reason. Marketing talk is one thing, but DA2, ME3...they speak for themselves.

Let's wait and see, but I'm not getting my hopes high and for sure not preordering the Collector's Edition as I did for ME3...God tell me, why??

I don't think your reasons are quite as good as you seem to think.

Quite a lot of people thought that ME3 was an excellent game, you know.  Thoughts about the ending aside, on the whole I loved it.  The dialogue was fantastic, and I thought that a number of the ideas they implemented (diversity of weapons and armor, upgrades, interactions with your crewmates, interactions between your crewmates) were the best of any of the 3 games and absolutely addressed the fans complaints and requests.  So citing ME3 as a reason for your pessimism about them listening to the fanbase rings pretty hollow to me.

I love ME3 and i consider it a great game but the only problem is it is no longer an RPG game but an Action Adventure Game.

[Icinix]

DominantDjDark wrote...

Yea, I always wanted a Kotor 3...MMO's tend to ruin game stories, I had about, 100 playthroughs of Kotor....atleast, played ToR though, but it kinda gets annoying after a while, might have better graphics and such compared to KotoR, but that doesn't mean it'll ever beat it. <3

Same. I'm still hoping that this free to play will eventually lead to an offline single player ToR though. At least that way there might be some of the mods that were pretty prevelant during KOTOR1 and 2 days.

[DominantDjDark]

Cstaf wrote...

Icinix wrote...

renjility wrote...

DominantDjDark wrote...

Besids, from what I've read most people stick with Human anyway, so it's not even an issue. 

This thread would not be 60 pages long if that was true.

Based on analytic data - the percentage of players who picked a race other than human is miniscule.


...one of the reasons why I hate analytic data being used in games.

Edit: Here http://social.biowar...21847/1#5822035

I know that the devs don't like this but i consider it relevant. But only 18% of mass effect players play female Shepard( http://www.rockpaper...ers-play-female/), should they skip using resources to include female Shepard and use those resources on other things in the game instead? No i don't think so for the same reason using the numbers in DA:O to justify not having multiple races in DA2 and DA3 is. I suspect people wants to have the false equivalence debate but i consider cut content = cut content.

By the way i would not have been disappointed by not including this feature if it wasn't in one of the previous games. Would i have been happy to include multiple races in DA3 given that there were none in DA:O and DA2? Yes, but i wouldn't be disappointed if it didn't happend since Bioware wouldn't have previously showed that this feature works.

Interesting, though, DA2 in a way reminds me of  ME- Male Hawke = Broshep, female Hawke = Femshep. but they're all human...makes it easier.

Modifié par DominantDjDark, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:36 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I still find it strange that they want to keep Dragon Age on the Mass Effect formula. The original Dragon Age formula was great and it stood on its own, it didn't have to be like Mass Effect at all. There is still a demand out there for those games like DA:Origins, if only someone would make them.  If they wanted to make a medieval fantasy like ME, I wish they would have made a new IP instead of appropriating Dragon Age.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:47 .

[ianvillan]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I still find it strange that they want to keep Dragon Age on the Mass Effect formula. The original Dragon Age formula was great and it stood on its own, it didn't have to be like Mass Effect at all. There is still a demand out there for those games like DA:Origins, if only someone would make them.

Yes I never understood what was so wrong with having two different top selling games that both got great reviews.
why must all the games you make conform to the same standards even if the are succesfull in their own right.

[Dutchess]

AlexJK wrote...

renjility wrote...

I can't speak for others, but I daresay that more insight in Bioware's reasoning would help me understand instead of just the "no" I see now.

I don't mean to be blunt about this, but it's not Bioware's job to make you understand. They've explained that DA3's protagonist will be human "largely, for story reasons, but also customization." (source) If you choose not to believe that, and instead to make up some idea that they are lazy, that is your problem not theirs.

Sigh. So for story reasons after all. And customization. Limiting customization to allow for more customization. Uhu. Again, I've heard that before with DA2. I have no reason to believe it's true this time. They'll have to show it's more than just empty words again.

It's their job to make a game that I, as a customer, will buy. If I believe the game is of lesser quality than it could and should be, I'm not buying it and they have failed to do their job. In a way, yes, it is their job to make me understand and make me think that still this game will be so amazing that I will have to buy and play it. So far their announcements don't have that effect. I mainly see disappointed people and people who don't care because a certain decision doesn't affect them. Only the companion customization seemed to incite an enthusiastic reaction in most people.

I dared to be optimistic before this particular announcement. I thought they had learned from their mistakes and the next game would be great. Now it seems they haven't learned that much at all, and it's being shrugged off as not being able to please everybody. Very well, But if there are enough people with a similar opinion, they will have a problem: disappointing sales, just like with DA2.

[azerSheppard]

there goes my hope of a qunari main character

[ianvillan]

renjility wrote...

AlexJK wrote...

renjility wrote...

I can't speak for others, but I daresay that more insight in Bioware's reasoning would help me understand instead of just the "no" I see now.

I don't mean to be blunt about this, but it's not Bioware's job to make you understand. They've explained that DA3's protagonist will be human "largely, for story reasons, but also customization." (source) If you choose not to believe that, and instead to make up some idea that they are lazy, that is your problem not theirs.

Sigh. So for story reasons after all. And customization. Limiting customization to allow for more customization. Uhu. Again, I've heard that before with DA2. I have no reason to believe it's true this time. They'll have to show it's more than just empty words again.

It's their job to make a game that I, as a customer, will buy. If I believe the game is of lesser quality than it could and should be, I'm not buying it and they have failed to do their job. In a way, yes, it is their job to make me understand and make me think that still this game will be so amazing that I will have to buy and play it. So far their announcements don't have that effect. I mainly see disappointed people and people who don't care because a certain decision doesn't affect them. Only the companion customization seemed to incite an enthusiastic reaction in most people.

I dared to be optimistic before this particular announcement. I thought they had learned from their mistakes and the next game would be great. Now it seems they haven't learned that much at all, and it's being shrugged off as not being able to please everybody. Very well, But if there are enough people with a similar opinion, they will have a problem: disappointing sales, just like with DA2.

What you said in the highlighted bit is the main problem with Biowares decision. Bioware has decided a gameplay feature that there player base is either dissapointed about or dont care about, hardly anyone is really happy or excited about this decision, and when you need your fans to get passionate about your new product is this the way to go.

Modifié par ianvillan, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:07 .

[Dagr88]

... Do people remember the Lore of the game when they ask for different races for protagonist? Let me remind you...

In Orlais:

Low class Humans are treated like dirt by Upper class. (You can ask orlesian woman at Denerim market about that)

City Elves... if humans are treated that way, imagine their position in society and how often you'll elven Templars on the streats of Val Royeaux.

Dalish are nomads and are rarely seen by humans.

Had you seen any dwarven politician or guard in Ferelden where "equality" is considered to be the strongest in Thedas (as far as we know)

The Lore states that Grey Wardens will take ANYONE while everywhere across the Thedas Elves are Dwarves are considered 2nd or even 3rd class "citizens".

The ONLY way for 3 races to work for PC to be:
- Grey Warden
- Mercenary (and a very famous one, I must add)
- Part of the Qun (someone on that spy list from MotA) (doesn't work for mages)

And again, unless you want for all 6 possible PC (2 genders x 3 races) to have the same voice I couldn't even see it happening before David Gaider's statement because it would cost A S***LOAD OF MONEY AND TIME. And personal plot of the protagonist will be thingy spread because s/he would have to share development time among them.

Modifié par Dagr88, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:02 .

[davepissedatending]

I'm glad about this I always play as a human anyway good news indeed

[Bruddajakka]

So I guess you guys missed the fact that one of the major enjoyment points of DAO compared to DA2 was the variety of races, and Origins. I mean hell if it was a choice between them, and a voiced human protagonist I'd take the variety. Then again it sounds like we're being forced to be part of the Chantry as well which personally I despise as an originization.

[Fredward]

60 pages in one day. This is insane.

Know what would be a good compromise? Human but with different backgrounds. Either a) playable or something that has a real and continuous impact on the game. Not like ME where you choose the background and get one quest in the first game. And maybe in the second, I don't remember.

Like I don't necessarily want a huge branching storyline based off where I came from but if say my character comes from the slums I want that reflected in the game. Like my character knowing who the crime bosses are, or which areas of the city are unsafe, maybe using slang more often, showing contempt for the nobility and ignorance for stuff outside his/her immediate field of reference. That kinda thing.