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[Fallstar]

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.

[zyntifox]

Vandicus wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

While some businesses do make that analysis(although its less common than you'd think, and Bioware fans hold Bioware to an almost absurd degree of accountability, oftentimes exaggerating their reactions or treating "maybes" and "ifs" as guarentees), it appears Bioware has not. If they did, they could've taken the same tact with voiced-protagonist and wheel vs list. Instead we have been told outright that a voiced PC is here to stay and they intend to continue using the wheel.

Ouch, you just dismissed the most frequent used assumption in macroeconomic analysis. Luckily my thesis supervisor did not do that when i wrote my thesis in master of financial econometrics! :happy:

That's economics for you, less applicable than we're lead to believe. 

But more seriously, its really two different premises. Spinning is a different thing than outright lying. 

Oh i am not saying that Laidlaw is outright lying i am saying he is probably doing just what you said there, spinning. Which an employe of a company selling a product do and should do.

Modifié par Cstaf, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:14 .

[Uccio]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

Modifié par Ukki, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:13 .

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

With possible exception of a mansion, the Hawkes being humans was in no way the requirement to allow them having siblings, mother and other family members.

[Vandicus]

Cstaf wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

While some businesses do make that analysis(although its less common than you'd think, and Bioware fans hold Bioware to an almost absurd degree of accountability, oftentimes exaggerating their reactions or treating "maybes" and "ifs" as guarentees), it appears Bioware has not. If they did, they could've taken the same tact with voiced-protagonist and wheel vs list. Instead we have been told outright that a voiced PC is here to stay and they intend to continue using the wheel.

Ouch, you just dismissed the most frequent used assumption in macroeconomic analysis. Luckily my thesis supervisor did not do that when i wrote my thesis in master of financial econometrics! :happy:

That's economics for you, less applicable than we're lead to believe. 

But more seriously, its really two different premises. Spinning is a different thing than outright lying. 

Oh i am not saying that Laidlaw is outright lying i am saying he is probably doing just what you said there, spinning. Which an employe of a company do and should do.

Its very well possible that when the races return they will again be simple reskins or be largely irrelevant to the story, but unless Laidlaw is outright lying it seems that their return is inevitable.

[Huntress]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Tevinter Dragon God wrote...

Ok, Bioware, you say you listen to your community. Then why the hell do you not make an option for different races again for DA3!!!
I am sick of being human again, I want a good old elf! And no Origin story either, do Bioware even listen to us?

I notice in your original post you talked about having only a human character being the same as a premade.

Do you feel this is the really the case, or is it more of an issue that you didn't like Hawke and don't want to be constrained to playing someone like Hawke again?

By only allowing a human character, does that mean it must be a premade?  If so, how do games like Planescape: Torment, or Knights of the Old Republic seem in your eyes?

Well that skirt fit me!

I like hawke, in fact I rather have Hawke as main character then a new human and yet is not possible because DA is about Thedas and NOT a particular character or hero.
"better the devil you know than the devil you don't" I say.

But I am  "ok" with that actually, thedas is bigger than any Hero, but Thedas have more than one race, cultures and believes, but yet again we are stuck as a Human, yes is  "new" but still Human.
I think Thedas is getting rather small for my taste, the theme is changing to how the world was seen by every one to how humans sees the world. I know how we as humans see the world I am human after all.

Da3 hero not only is define by race but now it has a back ground of what he is going to be in the world an Inquisitor, whats next? We sit and watch how the game play itself and I have no dought that by the end the players have to use their own imagination because it seems you guys cant even make a decent ending for you're products.

So I ask How is Da3 better than an almost one year old Skyrim?
no it is NOT better da3 is not even out yet already feels smaller than Skyrim.
How is  Da3 better than Koa? No it is not, it seems alot smaller and the game isn't out yet.

But lets wait and see how it goes, I already set my mind to buy the DA games the writers are planning for the Future, but of course I'll buy them if is alot bigger than DA3.

Modifié par Huntress, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:19 .

[Rayndorn]

Actually, I am disappointed by this. In fantasy games, one of the key aspects IMO is playing as something new - not a human, but a mytical creature like a Dwarf or Elf. I replayed DA:O so many times, because it felt so different as a different race/class each time. And there were so many times in DA2 where an elf called me a shem, or Merrill talked about me not understanding their ways. My character in the first game was an Elf, and I actually enjoyed proving Human jerks wrong about them/us.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Like I said, I'm disappointed, and I REEEAALLLYY want to be Dalish, but it's your game. DA3 just keeps sounding better and better otherwise!

PS: I also understand why you'd want a Human main character, because you could always flesh out that character more and focus on that particular setting, rather than designing about 6 different character backgrounds.

[Salaya]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...
Indecent rantings about nonsensical things.
 

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

The fact that you liked it does not mean the Hawke history was complex, or even good. I understand that some people likes Hawke's context/history, but I disagree with the idea that it justified the non-race selection. Minor changes could have been made to suit the race choice.

So, yes, I believe that BW just forced human for other reasons. (Less developing time, indulge the majority and try to reproduce de Mass Effect formula)

[Terrorize69]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Hey everyone,

I posted a poll regarding the human protag thing. I'm just curious about the numbers. It's hard to keep track of thread replies that say, "I don't care" or "I am disappoint!"  So there you go if you're curious too! 

I appreciate you doing this but you are just going to get that we are a vocal minority or that your poll is biased.

Well, so far, I'm not seeing it as a vocal minority, per say. You have almost 36% who are disappointed the protag is human, next to 64% who are not. That's over a third of those who are dissatisfied (so far).

What do you think the word "minority" means?

Well right now it's divided between 46% and 53%. I wouldn't call that 46% a minority because, to me, the number isn't small enough and there aren't enough votes cast yet. (Both are very close to the 50% mark, so far.) If it were divided 80% and 20% - and with a much larger number of votes - then yeah, that 80% is a huge majority, whereas 20% is a definite minority. Just have to wait and see.

And the fact that the thread/poll is promoted in a thread almost entirely full of those people that are whining/disapointed, reflects in the votes. While those that arn't disapointed are avoiding the whining and not voting.

[Dagr88]

Ukki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

And after you tell us WHAT KIND AND HOW MUCH WORK it 'll add, your comment will become the most sensible on BSN.

Modifié par Dagr88, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Vandicus]

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

With possible exception of a mansion, the Hawkes being humans was in no way the requirement to allow them having siblings, mother and other family members.

The whole Amell connection to the city in the first place sort've requires a human(as well as the possibility of becoming viscount). The encounter with the Dalish would probably be very different if the player was an elf as well. Also, all the above characters would be very different people and have lived very different lives had they been elves.

Would it be possibly to structurally alter DA2 to such an extent that it would be possible to play as an elf or dwarf?(though the PC would no longer be champion and the tale as a whole would be different except in regards to mages vs templars) Yes, but the game had an 11 month development cycle, and Origins itself did not have such sweeping changes to the game world despite its 6 year development cycle.

[zyntifox]

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

With possible exception of a mansion, the Hawkes being humans was in no way the requirement to allow them having siblings, mother and other family members.

I've said it before but i think it would have been really interesting story if you picked Dwarf or Elf you would have been left by the Hawke's door as a baby. And they would have taken you in and raise you as a family member. There could still be the family drama even though the protagonist isn't Hawke by blood.

[hoorayforicecream]

Ukki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

A number of reasons, really. You'd need to do a lot of plot gymnastics, and when the total development time is 11 months, you don't have the time for it. But here are a few reasons why a non-human Hawke wouldn't work.

1. Dwarves cannot be mages. This means Bethany cannot exist, and mage Hawke cannot exist. 
2. Dalish elves would have no history in Kirkwall, unless you somehow establish some elaborate former-dalish-turned-city elf thing. Either way, there's no tie to the city for the family.
3. City elves might work, with Gamlen being a poor city elf instead, except you've got no way for Hawke to legitimately get the estate in act 2. You can argue that maybe Hawke could just buy the estate from the proceeds, but then you've got to handwave the racism of the nobility in Kirkwall accepting an elven Hawke as Champion.
4. Half-elves are humans.

It's possible, but improbable. In order to make it work, it would require a lot more effort than the developers decided it was worth.

Edit: Yes, you could do the 'adopted baby' bit. That seems a bit contrived to me, though.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Vandicus]

Salaya wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...
Indecent rantings about nonsensical things.
 

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

The fact that you liked it does not mean the Hawke history was complex, or even good. I understand that some people likes Hawke's context/history, but I disagree with the idea that it justified the non-race selection. Minor changes could have been made to suit the race choice.

So, yes, I believe that BW just forced human for other reasons. (Less developing time, indulge the majority and try to reproduce de Mass Effect formula)

The fact that you dislike it does not mean Hawke's history was simplistic or bad. Its clear that you prefer the straightforward story of good vs evil that we're presented with in Origins. Hawke's story as a human(not in the sense of race but the other sense) drama is more complex on that basis alone. 

[Atakuma]

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Of course it can when you ignore the facts and pretend it's some sort of personal attack. Adding multiple races is not a trivial task. Each piece of armor would have to be redone several times over and many cutscenes as well, that adds up to a whole lot of work for a feature that most beople don't even use. At the end of the day they weighed their options and decided that it wasn't worth the investment. You're free  to be disappointed, but that's the reality of the situation. They can't please everyone.

Modifié par Atakuma, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:23 .

[Yuoaman]

I much prefer playing as a human - humans are much more widespread in Thedas than any of the other races (to the best of our knowledge), and it's much easier to roleplay as someone who isn't as pigeonholed into a specific culture. With dwarves, for example, you're kind of stuck in the class-based culture of Orzammar. While a human may be from a certain geographic area with a primary culture they are more likely to be in contact with those with different worldviews, making player characters free to roleplay as they see fit.

[Salaya]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Weird things, mostly involving boobs

Of course it can when you ignore the facts and pretend it's some sort of personal attack. Adding multiple races is not a trivial task. Each piece of armor would have to be redone several times over and many cutscenes as well, that adds up to a whole lot of work for a feature that most beople don't even use. At the end of the day they weighed their options and decided that it wasn't worth the investment. You're free  to be disappointed, but that's the reality of the situation. They can't please everyone.

I certainly do not take this race thing as a personal attack. And, by saying this, you agree with me -the long, difficult path is not chosen. They choose the easy one. That one that does not require doing all those things you mention.

[Rawgrim]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ukki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

A number of reasons, really. You'd need to do a lot of plot gymnastics, and when the total development time is 11 months, you don't have the time for it. But here are a few reasons why a non-human Hawke wouldn't work.

1. Dwarves cannot be mages. This means Bethany cannot exist, and mage Hawke cannot exist. 
2. Dalish elves would have no history in Kirkwall, unless you somehow establish some elaborate former-dalish-turned-city elf thing. Either way, there's no tie to the city for the family.
3. City elves might work, with Gamlen being a poor city elf instead, except you've got no way for Hawke to legitimately get the estate in act 2. You can argue that maybe Hawke could just buy the estate from the proceeds, but then you've got to handwave the racism of the nobility in Kirkwall accepting an elven Hawke as Champion.
4. Half-elves are humans.

It's possible, but improbable. In order to make it work, it would require a lot more effort than the developers decided it was worth.

Edit: Yes, you could do the 'adopted baby' bit. That seems a bit contrived to me, though.

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

3. See point 2

4. Correct. Alistair is an half-elf actually.

[Allan Schumacher]

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Planescape: Torment you can assign attribute points, and it is probably my favourite RPG of all time.  It's why I contributed to Project Eternity.

[Yuoaman]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Planescape: Torment you can assign attribute points, and it is probably my favourite RPG of all time.  It's why I contributed to Project Eternity.

There is no way I could endorse this post enough.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ukki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

A number of reasons, really. You'd need to do a lot of plot gymnastics, and when the total development time is 11 months, you don't have the time for it. But here are a few reasons why a non-human Hawke wouldn't work.

1. Dwarves cannot be mages. This means Bethany cannot exist, and mage Hawke cannot exist. 
2. Dalish elves would have no history in Kirkwall, unless you somehow establish some elaborate former-dalish-turned-city elf thing. Either way, there's no tie to the city for the family.
3. City elves might work, with Gamlen being a poor city elf instead, except you've got no way for Hawke to legitimately get the estate in act 2. You can argue that maybe Hawke could just buy the estate from the proceeds, but then you've got to handwave the racism of the nobility in Kirkwall accepting an elven Hawke as Champion.
4. Half-elves are humans.

It's possible, but improbable. In order to make it work, it would require a lot more effort than the developers decided it was worth.

Edit: Yes, you could do the 'adopted baby' bit. That seems a bit contrived to me, though.

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

3. See point 2

4. Correct. Alistair is an half-elf actually.

Bethany is an entirely different character if she's not a mage. Carver is an entirely different character if Hawke is not a mage. They would need to write three companion characters for both of these people, and three different characters for Gamlen and Leandra, since their cultural experiences would be radically different.

[tmp7704]

Vandicus wrote...

The whole Amell connection to the city in the first place sort've requires a human(as well as the possibility of becoming viscount).

Kirkwall is a city with population of both dwarves and elves. Thus it's not necessary for the Hawkes to be humans to have relatives there. In case of the dwarves such relatives could even be wealthy.

The possibility of becoming viscount would indeed be limited to humans, but as it's entirely optional in DA2 as it is and has no impact on the game whatsoever, i don't think it's an effective point -- one could even turn it around and say that not having option to become viscount as dwarf or elf actually makes the 'different experience based on the PC's species' stronger.

[Rawgrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Planescape: Torment you can assign attribute points, and it is probably my favourite RPG of all time.  It's why I contributed to Project Eternity.

I thought it was Ultima 4 that was considered to be the best in the series. All about character development, and you get to chose gender + (8 was it?) classes. As a side note, Bioware are remaking this game into a browser action game. Go figure. Ultima 7 is still my favorite, though.