3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Ukki wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Surely the Dragon Age dev team is not lazy. Hell, even Bioware games I don't like as DA2 shows tons of refined work on it; but surely, with all due respect, taking the decision to follow the "only human protagonist" path is easily portaryed as a lazy one.

Not only for the obvious reasons, but for the precedents. You told us that Hawke was human because you were going to make a detailed, complex character history -wich, in the end, was completely false.

I think DA fans have perefectly reasonable reasons to be worried.

You may not have liked it, but the fact that Hawke was human allowed Hawke to have siblings, a mother, and a family estate in Kirkwall. I enjoyed the story elements involved with Gamlen, Charade, Carver, Bethany and Leandra. That wouldn't have been possible without enforcing Hawke's humanity.

Why is that? Races with such storylines require just more work. Nothing more.

A number of reasons, really. You'd need to do a lot of plot gymnastics, and when the total development time is 11 months, you don't have the time for it. But here are a few reasons why a non-human Hawke wouldn't work.

1. Dwarves cannot be mages. This means Bethany cannot exist, and mage Hawke cannot exist. 
2. Dalish elves would have no history in Kirkwall, unless you somehow establish some elaborate former-dalish-turned-city elf thing. Either way, there's no tie to the city for the family.
3. City elves might work, with Gamlen being a poor city elf instead, except you've got no way for Hawke to legitimately get the estate in act 2. You can argue that maybe Hawke could just buy the estate from the proceeds, but then you've got to handwave the racism of the nobility in Kirkwall accepting an elven Hawke as Champion.
4. Half-elves are humans.

It's possible, but improbable. In order to make it work, it would require a lot more effort than the developers decided it was worth.

Edit: Yes, you could do the 'adopted baby' bit. That seems a bit contrived to me, though.

Dwarves not being able to be mages is not a problem. I wasn´t in Origins so it would not have been a problem in DA2. Neither is being dwarf or city elf a problem for the character to become a champion. Both can aquire wealth (even despised, you could still be wealthy like the city elf which daughter you resque in DA2) and both can become champion since that happens through violence. Granted dalish elf is a bit harder but that would only require more from the writer, which shouldn´t be a problem for a person who writes fantasy.

[Salaya]

Vandicus wrote...

The fact that you dislike it does not mean Hawke's history was simplistic or bad.

Of course. That's obvious.

Vandicus wrote...

Its clear that you prefer the straightforward story of good vs evil that we're presented with in Origins. Hawke's story as a human(not in the sense of race but the other sense) drama is more complex on that basis alone.

I do not think Origins story had anything to do with good vs evil. The compelxity of drama comes for the form is presented, not for the content shown. And the form in Origins is way more complex than DA2.

Hawke certainly had family and some "family issues" and such things -things that added content. But not a single one of these things were complex. To my eyes, the drama elements in Hawke story were lazy, bad presented and sometimes, extremely ridiculous.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Hey everyone,

I posted a poll regarding the human protag thing. I'm just curious about the numbers. It's hard to keep track of thread replies that say, "I don't care" or "I am disappoint!"  So there you go if you're curious too! 

I appreciate you doing this but you are just going to get that we are a vocal minority or that your poll is biased.

Well, so far, I'm not seeing it as a vocal minority, per say. You have almost 36% who are disappointed the protag is human, next to 64% who are not. That's over a third of those who are dissatisfied (so far).

What do you think the word "minority" means?

Well right now it's divided between 46% and 53%. I wouldn't call that 46% a minority because, to me, the number isn't small enough and there aren't enough votes cast yet. (Both are very close to the 50% mark, so far.) If it were divided 80% and 20% - and with a much larger number of votes - then yeah, that 80% is a huge majority, whereas 20% is a definite minority. Just have to wait and see.

And the fact that the thread/poll is promoted in a thread almost entirely full of those people that are whining/disapointed, reflects in the votes. While those that arn't disapointed are avoiding the whining and not voting.

That's a bit of a blanket statement, loaded with speculation. For example, I made the poll and I voted "no" for being disappointed by a human protag. I am not whining - and I created the thing. There are others like us out there... lurking... reading... and eating soup. Also people are free to advertise the poll to their social networks - you don't have to be a forum user to vote on it. I certainly posted it up to FB, G+, and the like. Others should do so, too.

p.s. Right now it's 50% for "yes - disappointed" and 49% for "no - disappointed" - and so the numbers continue to shift. 

Sorry to tell you but his attitude towards your poll is not entirely one of speculation. The poll itself presents itself in a biased fashion, and only leaves two extreme options of disappointed or not disappointed. Additionally the sample itself is self-selecting, and from the BSN(which is nonrepresentative in regards to the fanbase). Unfortunately, such a poll means almost nothing.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rawgrim wrote...

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

No longer having a member of the family as a mage invalidates one of the main reasons Hawke and family are on the run to begin with.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

And they lose the reason for going to Kirkwall. They also lose the reason for getting anywhere in the city, or for attempting to build a home in the city.

The point isn't that it's impossible. The point is that it is improbable, because it requires significant amounts of plot gymnastics and additional work, and an 11-month development cycle most likely made the endeavor not worth the zots.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[Rawgrim]

[

[/quote]

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

3. See point 2

4. Correct. Alistair is an half-elf actually.

[/quote]

Bethany is an entirely different character if she's not a mage. Carver is an entirely different character if Hawke is not a mage. They would need to write three companion characters for both of these people, and three different characters for Gamlen and Leandra, since their cultural experiences would be radically different.

[/quote]

Bethany would be a different character. Yes. heavens forbid they should add different characters to an rpg. Carver is different too, if Hawke is not a mage. He is dead if Hawke is a mage. No issue there.

They don`t need to involve Carver, Bethany or Gamlen etc for other races. Those characters can still be alive and well, but functioning as human characters the dwarven PC can run into in Kirkwall and recruit as companions.

[Atakuma]

Salaya wrote...

I certainly do not take this race thing as a personal attack. And, by saying this, you agree with me -the long, difficult path is not chosen. They choose the easy one. That one that does not require doing all those things you mention.

No I don't agree with you at all, you are calling it lazy presumably because you aren't getting what you want out of it. It isn't lazines it's just business. In a perfect world Bioware would have a blank check and could put anything they wanted into the game, but we don't live in that world and comprimises need to be made.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No, you don't understand.  The options would be the same.  But since your character's cultural perspective would be different, the reasons you would choose one option over another would be different.

That's enough difference for me.  That's all the difference I think we ever get - what makes one playthrough different from another is the PC's decision-making process.

Can you give me an example? I'm trying to think of a situation in which a Hawke would choose a different response based on race, but I can't.

Even if he chooses the same option, he could choose it for different reasons.

A dwarf Hawke might be less inclined to fight the Carta because they're dwarves.  He might be less interested in the plight of elves (humans could credibly feel some sort of collective guilt about the treatment of elves, but dwarves would have no reason to).  He would certainly have a very different perspective in magic and mages when dealig with Fenris.

[Rawgrim]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

No longer having a member of the family as a mage invalidates one of the main reasons Hawke and family are on the run to begin with.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

And they lose the reason for going to Kirkwall. They also lose the reason for getting anywhere in the city, or for attempting to build a home in the city.

The point isn't that it's impossible. The point is that it is improbable, because it requires significant amounts of plot gymnastics and additional work, and an 11-month development cycle most likely made the endeavor not worth the zots.

The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

[tmp7704]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

[Vandicus]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

[

[/quote]

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

3. See point 2

4. Correct. Alistair is an half-elf actually.

[/quote]

Bethany is an entirely different character if she's not a mage. Carver is an entirely different character if Hawke is not a mage. They would need to write three companion characters for both of these people, and three different characters for Gamlen and Leandra, since their cultural experiences would be radically different.

[/quote]

Bethany would be a different character. Yes. heavens forbid they should add different characters to an rpg. Carver is different too, if Hawke is not a mage. He is dead if Hawke is a mage. No issue there.

They don`t need to involve Carver, Bethany or Gamlen etc for other races. Those characters can still be alive and well, but functioning as human characters the dwarven PC can run into in Kirkwall and recruit as companions.

[/quote]

Has the amount of plot gymnastics required not been made clear yet? Again, not impossible, just extraordinarily difficult and a feat that would far surpass the game differences resulting from choosing an Origin in Origins, and Origins had a 6 year development cycle. Asking for that level of plot change given the technical limitations that have always been shown to exist is not yet reasonable. Maybe in a decade or two it will be possible.

[Vandicus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

Which isn't Allan's point. The attitude of "This one feature that I like is necessary for any game to be considered an RPG" is what he's questioning.

[Salaya]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

Great things about humanity

No I don't agree with you at all, you are calling it lazy presumably because you aren't getting what you want out of it. It isn't lazines it's just business. In a perfect world Bioware would have a blank check and could put anything they wanted into the game, but we don't live in that world and comprimises need to be made.

No, it's not the case.

I'm calling it lazy because the path chosen (the compromise, if you prefer) it's one that has little content compared to other alternatives. I'm not unreasonable, I understand this is bussiness and BW needs to make money. I'm not saying that perfectly defined races, with tons of unique content must be added. What I'm saying is that a better path/compromise should have been archieved. Instead, we have (again) a forced race.

[Beerfish]

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

And that is the whole point of this thread isn't it?  Human player protagonist is no big deal at all.

[Rawgrim]

[quote]Vandicus wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

[

[/quote]

1. Bethany can exist. But she can`t be a mage. And as a dwarf, Hawke can`t be a mage. An elven or human Hawke can, of course.

2. They can have history outside of Kirkwall, or they could add abit about a dalish elf being a former hero of Kirkwall.

3. See point 2

4. Correct. Alistair is an half-elf actually.

[/quote]

Bethany is an entirely different character if she's not a mage. Carver is an entirely different character if Hawke is not a mage. They would need to write three companion characters for both of these people, and three different characters for Gamlen and Leandra, since their cultural experiences would be radically different.

[/quote]

Bethany would be a different character. Yes. heavens forbid they should add different characters to an rpg. Carver is different too, if Hawke is not a mage. He is dead if Hawke is a mage. No issue there.

They don`t need to involve Carver, Bethany or Gamlen etc for other races. Those characters can still be alive and well, but functioning as human characters the dwarven PC can run into in Kirkwall and recruit as companions.

[/quote]

Has the amount of plot gymnastics required not been made clear yet? Again, not impossible, just extraordinarily difficult and a feat that would far surpass the game differences resulting from choosing an Origin in Origins, and Origins had a 6 year development cycle. Asking for that level of plot change given the technical limitations that have always been shown to exist is not yet reasonable. Maybe in a decade or two it will be possible.

[/quote]


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .

[Skadison]

I don't understand it, why would they force us to play as a human when you're trying to have more customization? I think I will try it out anyway but I was actually loooking forward to playing an elf. I'm a bit gutted.

As somebody else put it the world is full of lots of other races why would you limit us to one choice?  C'mon man.

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:45 .

[Rawgrim]

Beerfish wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

And that is the whole point of this thread isn't it?  Human player protagonist is no big deal at all.

Its not a big deal in settings that DON`T have any other race but humans. Dragon Age, however, has alot more races, and you got to play them earlier. then the option got removed, and we were left having to play Bioware`s character - not our own. The argument would be exactly the same if we got forced to play as a dwarf.

[Terrorize69]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Hey everyone,

I posted a poll regarding the human protag thing. I'm just curious about the numbers. It's hard to keep track of thread replies that say, "I don't care" or "I am disappoint!"  So there you go if you're curious too! 

I appreciate you doing this but you are just going to get that we are a vocal minority or that your poll is biased.

Well, so far, I'm not seeing it as a vocal minority, per say. You have almost 36% who are disappointed the protag is human, next to 64% who are not. That's over a third of those who are dissatisfied (so far).

What do you think the word "minority" means?

Well right now it's divided between 46% and 53%. I wouldn't call that 46% a minority because, to me, the number isn't small enough and there aren't enough votes cast yet. (Both are very close to the 50% mark, so far.) If it were divided 80% and 20% - and with a much larger number of votes - then yeah, that 80% is a huge majority, whereas 20% is a definite minority. Just have to wait and see.

And the fact that the thread/poll is promoted in a thread almost entirely full of those people that are whining/disapointed, reflects in the votes. While those that arn't disapointed are avoiding the whining and not voting.

That's a bit of a blanket statement, loaded with speculation. For example, I made the poll and I voted "no" for being disappointed by a human protag. I am not whining - and I created the thing. There are others like us out there... lurking... reading... and eating soup. Also people are free to advertise the poll to their social networks - you don't have to be a forum user to vote on it. I certainly posted it up to FB, G+, and the like. Others should do so, too.

p.s. Right now it's 50% for "yes - disappointed" and 49% for "no - disappointed" - and so the numbers continue to shift. 

My statement was not an attack on your or the poll, if it came across as that way then I'm sorry.

Yes it was speculation but its logical speculation, when people complain or whine, they tend to stick around to see how the debate/discussion goes. Thus they are more likely to keep rechecking this topic for example, while those that have no need to argue or whine about the decision, are less likely to keep an eye on it.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Did you vote on it?

No, I rarely vote on forum polls for matters of significance. For fun polls yes, but not if people are actually trying to use the poll as a source of information(because a forum poll is a very very bad source of information).

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

You could still help Bethany out with family problems. Could be her personal quests etc. The point is, its not THAT much work. You wouldn`t need to rewrite the entire game. It would just be from a different angle.

[ianvillan]

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

I would say that Varric was a powerful figure in Kirkwall, he had a good position in the merchant guild and huge amounts of money to protect Merrill from the templars so what in the story of DA2 could Hawke do that Varric couldn't, Varric could certainly protect Anders if he wanted to and Anders was the one who was integral to the story.

[hoorayforicecream]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

[Rawgrim]

ianvillan wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

I would say that Varric was a powerful figure in Kirkwall, he had a good position in the merchant guild and huge amounts of money to protect Merrill from the templars so what in the story of DA2 could Hawke do that Varric couldn't, Varric could certainly protect Anders if he wanted to and Anders was the one who was integral to the story.

Varric could have been the link to the dwarven version of Hawke, easily.

[tmp7704]

Vandicus wrote...

Which isn't Allan's point. The attitude of "This one feature that I like is necessary for any game to be considered an RPG" is what he's questioning.

I'm not sure what the point actually is, because the statement he's responding to is basically "DA2 had poor CC for an RPG". Which is true. Being able to point out that another RPG had it even worse doesn't make it any less true.

Perhaps both of you are reading too much into the original statement -- as on the face value, it merely states that as far as different RPG games released over the years go, DA2 offers very limited CC. Going from there to "if the CC is poor then it's not an RPG" is coming dangerously close to building a strawman, imo.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:48 .