3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

You could still help Bethany out with family problems. Could be her personal quests etc. The point is, its not THAT much work. You wouldn`t need to rewrite the entire game. It would just be from a different angle.

That's ignoring the personal nature of the family and how the game focuses on it. Additionally, Bethany would have to be a forced companion for the Deep Roads expedition, because getting the wealth to use as protection is the plot motivation of Act I. I'm not the writer and even I foresee major obstacles that they would have to work around.

[Rawgrim]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

You mean the ressources they had more than enough of to make SIX different origins in the first game?

[Skadison]

Rawgrim wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Hawke's CC is a class and a gender choice. It's literally one of the worst CC's I'v ever seen in a game calling itself an RPG.

You should see Ultima VII's.  You pick a gender and a portrait.  It's often considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time (A sentiment I agree with).

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

And that is the whole point of this thread isn't it?  Human player protagonist is no big deal at all.

Its not a big deal in settings that DON`T have any other race but humans. Dragon Age, however, has alot more races, and you got to play them earlier. then the option got removed, and we were left having to play Bioware`s character - not our own. The argument would be exactly the same if we got forced to play as a dwarf.

Agreed.

[Allan Schumacher]

Deleted some posts. Please be respectful to people on both sides, and try to avoid responding to a post that seems to just be inflammatory (since it can be difficult for me to track down all the responses!)

[Salaya]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

...

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

So, you agree then with the idea of Bioware forcing Human main character to improve resoruces; Hawke was there to make developement easier, not to add significant or complex story.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

You could still help Bethany out with family problems. Could be her personal quests etc. The point is, its not THAT much work. You wouldn`t need to rewrite the entire game. It would just be from a different angle.

That's ignoring the personal nature of the family and how the game focuses on it. Additionally, Bethany would have to be a forced companion for the Deep Roads expedition, because getting the wealth to use as protection is the plot motivation of Act I. I'm not the writer and even I foresee major obstacles that they would have to work around.

Bethany, Carver, their mom, or Gamlen couldn`t have gotten the wealth in any other way?

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

You mean the ressources they had more than enough of to make SIX different origins in the first game?

Six different Origins, each two hours long approximately for a game with a 6 year development cycle(so 12 hours of content total). Act I&2 make up the majority of DA2, so lets eyeball them at about 30 hours. So you'd want the race origins in DA2 to each have been about 30 hours long(so 90 hours total), and then the remaining 10 hours would be shared gameplay. DA2 was developed in 11 months.

[Atakuma]

Salaya wrote...

No, it's not the case.

I'm calling it lazy because the path chosen (the compromise, if you prefer) it's one that has little content compared to other alternatives. I'm not unreasonable, I understand this is bussiness and BW needs to make money. I'm not saying that perfectly defined races, with tons of unique content must be added. What I'm saying is that a better path/compromise should have been archieved. Instead, we have (again) a forced race.

There is no better path, Races are either in or out, there is no in-between. If the only reason they made this decision was because the just didn't want to make the effort, then that would indeed be lazy, but that isn't the case and continuing to refer to them as such is insulting.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rawgrim wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

You mean the ressources they had more than enough of to make SIX different origins in the first game?

One game took around 8 years to complete. The other was completed in 11 months. Not all game development cycles are the same. It is unreasonable to expect that DA3 will have a development cycle that is longer than most game consoles' lifespans. I have already mentioned this in previous posts in this very thread. Selective reading does not lend you much credit.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Master Shiori]

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

No, they wouldn't. The whole story as it is now would not work.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

- as dwarves, Hawke and Bethany cannot be mages, which negates the personal connection to the whole templar vs mage conflict

Simply put, if Hawke was anything other than a human, the story in DA2 wouldn't work as it is. It would require massive rewritting.

[Vandicus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Which isn't Allan's point. The attitude of "This one feature that I like is necessary for any game to be considered an RPG" is what he's questioning.

I'm not sure what the point actually is, because the statement he's responding to is basically "DA2 had poor CC for an RPG". Which is true. Being able to point out that another RPG had it even worse doesn't make it any less true.

Perhaps both of you are reading too much into the original statement -- as on the face value, it merely states that as far as different RPG games released over the years go, DA2 offers very limited CC. Going from there to "if the CC is poor then it's not an RPG" is coming dangerously close to building a strawman, imo.

It makes more context in the sense of who posted it and what they were trying to say. This discussion eventually resulted in a threadlock for the last thread because it derailed into a debate over what standards constituted an rpg.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

You mean the ressources they had more than enough of to make SIX different origins in the first game?

Six different Origins, each two hours long approximately for a game with a 6 year development cycle(so 12 hours of content total). Act I&2 make up the majority of DA2, so lets eyeball them at about 30 hours. So you'd want the race origins in DA2 to each have been about 30 hours long(so 90 hours total), and then the remaining 10 hours would be shared gameplay. DA2 was developed in 11 months.

It would have needed a longer development time, sure. But that usually means it ends up being a better product in the end too.

[Allan Schumacher]

tmp7704 wrote...

I've only checked the dev responses in this thread, but didn't see this question asked/addressed... so at the risk of repeating something said already:

just wondering -- how do you BioWare folks reconcile in your heads this fixed race business with the public statements you make how "customization is going to be bigger than Dragon Age Origins"? I mean, what is it that DA3 is going to allow to customize that DAO didn't, to not only sort-of 'even it out' with DA3 lacking option to customize what DAO allowed (in this case species, but it also includes stuff like ability to wield any sort of weapon/armour that DA2 got rid of) ... but to actually exceed the overall level of customization?

Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

[ianvillan]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


As a dwarf, you don`t need Bethany or Carver as siblings at all. They could just have fled to Kirkwall (lost Hawke on the way), and ended up the same place they would have been had you played the human "Hawke". But they could be possible companions anyway. Wouldn`t take much rewriting at all.

So one of the main focuses for Act I&II, the family dynamic, is thrown away? Or are you asking for new Acts to be written to replace the gaping hole of content that would arise?

You could still help Bethany out with family problems. Could be her personal quests etc. The point is, its not THAT much work. You wouldn`t need to rewrite the entire game. It would just be from a different angle.

That's ignoring the personal nature of the family and how the game focuses on it. Additionally, Bethany would have to be a forced companion for the Deep Roads expedition, because getting the wealth to use as protection is the plot motivation of Act I. I'm not the writer and even I foresee major obstacles that they would have to work around.

Bethany, Carver, their mom, or Gamlen couldn`t have gotten the wealth in any other way?

Varric just wanted to get wealth for him and Bartran and improve his lot in kirkwall, why is that not acceptable for a Dwarf protagonist.

[tmp7704]

Beerfish wrote...

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

And that is the whole point of this thread isn't it?  Human player protagonist is no big deal at all.

Could you elaborate on how exactly you've arrived from my statement to yours? Because if anything, they seem like exact opposites to me, not "the whole point of this thread".

It's not that "human player protagonist is no big deal at all" -- if anything, such limitation can be considered a strike against the game, that the rest of the game has to go an extra mile in excellence, to make up for.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Cstaf wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

I don't usually agree with you Allan but i do respect you a lot. Why? Anyone having to sit for hours and read and answer forum posts as their job is clearly a better man than I.

This actually isn't a part of my job.  I'm here of my own volition.  The only time it is a part of my job is post-release and in that case, it's tech support forums.

Ah, ok. Well i respect masochists as well.

Edit: By the way Allan, are we suppose to answer posts, such as the one above me, which can be seen as uncivil or just ignore him/her?

If you feel a post is uncivil and inflammatory, I encourage people to try to move on and not reply.

[hoorayforicecream]

Salaya wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

...

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

So, you agree then with the idea of Bioware forcing Human main character to improve resoruces; Hawke was there to make developement easier, not to add significant or complex story.

One can make a decision for more than one reason. Yes, one of the reasons was for resource conservation. However, the notion of family and that the family is affected by the mage/templar conflict are also major themes within the game. Ignoring or dismissing that is foolish. It isn't a binary situation.

[ianvillan]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

No, they wouldn't. The whole story as it is now would not work.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

- as dwarves, Hawke and Bethany cannot be mages, which negates the personal connection to the whole templar vs mage conflict

Simply put, if Hawke was anything other than a human, the story in DA2 wouldn't work as it is. It would require massive rewritting.

Why is the estate and noble titles so important, what did Hawke need a fancy estate for when Anders who put all events in motion lived in a hovel in darktown.

[Wulfram]

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

[99DP1982]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

How so? They could have approached the conflicts from other POVs. Reflect Dalish looks on magic besides the couple of Merril´s comments, same with dwarves (who both lack mages and have partial immunity), or the quanri from an elf, who usually take the Qun as several steps in the right direction from the way human cultures treat them. It would have been worse only if it had limited itself to a change of skin and a few dialogue choices. Which considering the rest of DA2, would probably have been the case.

You realize that this isn't just a request for more races, but also more content to make sure that said racial choices are done better.

In other words, it boils down to a request for additional content. Which is something I expect every person to want.

Allan,

It is a matter of perspective, what you consider "an additional content". DA:O set a bar for quality of the game. It gave the player the unique experience, not seen in RPGs before, to actually play your background and to see its influence through portions of the game (as a dwarf, when you returned to the dwarven city, etc.).

In perspective to DA:O it is not a request for additional content, but to meet the standards already set by Your company in previous game of this series.

The DA2 took a really bad turn... it went lenghts to try and make it more like ME experience - voiced protagonist, dialog-wheel with paraphrasing (get rid of those awful icons...), auto-dialog, etc.

I'm fine with the similar settings like the ORIGINAL ME had... If it will resemble ME3 or DA2, I will definately not support this product with my money. If you want to give us a protagonist it'd better be DAMN good and rival The Witcher 2 in terms of choices, content, etc.

There are also games in Bioware history's that made their mark on the RPG scene... Baldur's Gate... You didn't have that much influence of your race on the gameplay, but the story was damn good... the amount of text lines, quests, etc. is up to this day on the top of the quality list, with games like Fallout, Planscape: Torment.

The DA:O was something that gave more meaning to backgrounds and the history of the PC, but failed at some other aspects. It is still one of the best RPGs.

In short... would we like to have more content than you plan to deliver to us? YES, because you already done so with your previous games, but we want nothing more than what was delivered in terms of content in your previous games in this series, namly DA:O...

I realize that there are budget requirements that you guys have to meet, but it was not my decision or most of the fans decision to go with voiced portagonist.

I realize that each line of voiced text is very expensive, but if the voiced text is as poor as it was with DA2, I'll take DA:O, KotOR style of text any day... If you plan to make it a Mass Effect clone, make it at least a clone of Mass Effect 1, and god forbid action packed ME3... It is really painful to see Bioware, once rekonown for great RPGs, turning into a company that produces ARPG that have nothing to offer aside of action and partial cinematic interaction... The desire to make it an interactive action movie is just deteriorating the experience of a Role Playing GAME. There is a difference in creating own story (DA:O), and participating in a movie-story with already predefined outcome (DA2).

[Huntress]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

I certainly do not take this race thing as a personal attack. And, by saying this, you agree with me -the long, difficult path is not chosen. They choose the easy one. That one that does not require doing all those things you mention.

 In a perfect world Bioware would have a blank check and .....

And they will suffer same fate as 38 Studios.. 75 million dollards one game 2 DLC and where are they? OUT of the game!

No you are wrong, millions of dollards to one product is as bad or worst as not  having enough resources or explaining how much work is to add finishing moves in future games:pinched:

[Argent Csero]

It's not a deal breaker, but I would have preferred more choice. I already live as a human so I prefer more exotic options in a video game.

[Rawgrim]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

No, they wouldn't. The whole story as it is now would not work.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

- as dwarves, Hawke and Bethany cannot be mages, which negates the personal connection to the whole templar vs mage conflict

Simply put, if Hawke was anything other than a human, the story in DA2 wouldn't work as it is. It would require massive rewritting.

They couldn`t have written in some bit about an elf being decendant of some elf that has done something heroic for Kirkwall in the past? And thereby being given an estate? Or a dwarf having done something simmilar. Some uncle could have easily squandered that away over the years too. You just need to twist the "entryway" into the story abit for it to work.

As dwarves, yes. But why would a dwarf origin need Bethany or Carver as siblings? You could just stuff them in Kirkwall and have them be recruitable companions instead.

Yes. If the option to make Hawke human, dwarf, or elf was there, the DA2 story would have been more interesting. And yes. It would have required alot more work. They spent 6 years creating the first dragon age. 11 months on DA2. More work helps a game get better.

But we are getting sidetracked from the topic, i fear. So lets just drop the subject?

[Skadison]

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

[Allan Schumacher]

DuskWarden wrote...

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.

This is not true.

What you described are high level systemic barriers to entry.  That doesn't mean that the population that makes up the forum is a representative sample of the customer base of Dragon Age.