3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

[Master Shiori]

Salaya wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

...

He's basically asking for the prologue and parts of act 1 and 2 to be different origin stories, and dismissing how many resources it would take to do that.

So, you agree then with the idea of Bioware forcing Human main character to improve resoruces; Hawke was there to make developement easier, not to add significant or complex story.

Except, when compared to origins in DA:O, Hawke's background did provide for a more complex story. Heck, the whole act 1 was basically about discovering who the Amell's were and why you need to reclaim your family legacy.

Implemeting that certainly wasn't easy.

[Atakuma]

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Modifié par Atakuma, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:01 .

[ianvillan]

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

Merrill was a dalish mage who was forced to go to Kirkwall, so could not a dalish protagonist be forced to Kirkwall in the same way.

[tmp7704]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

Yes, which is precisely why i asked "what is it that DA3 is going to allow to customize". Saying "stuff" isn't really answer to that

As DA:O also allowed the player to customize their crafting abilities, and equip all types of weapons and armour if they so wished, without more details i'm afraid i don't see yet where this "more customization than DAO" is coming from. I'll presume however that you simply can't go into more details at this point, and it's something that's reserved for more official announcements/blogs etc..?

[Salaya]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

A good essay about echonomics

There is no better path, Races are either in or out, there is no in-between. If the only reason they made this decision was because the just didn't want to make the effort, then that would indeed be lazy, but that isn't the case and continuing to refer to them as such is insulting.

To be clear: I'm not calling the dev team lazy -I've already said this. I'm saying that this path is easily considered a lazy one. Or, if you prefer, an easy one. As I've said, I have total respect for BW and DA dev teams. Even games I don't like seem incredible well done to me.

That said, I certainly see difficult to accept that given the problem, choosing "Race options present" isn't better than the alternative. Even when you disagree with me, you say that in a perfect world, Bioware would add all the content they wish, implying that adding it is a desirable thing. In a perfect world, surely better things are present.

And, of course, race in or out is not a simple binary thing. Well, adding them or not per se is binary, but not the gameplay element as it is in the game. You can certainly devise ways to add races that are cheaper and less resource consuming.

[Vandicus]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

Did you vote on it?

No, I rarely vote on forum polls for matters of significance. For fun polls yes, but not if people are actually trying to use the poll as a source of information(because a forum poll is a very very bad source of information).

lol. I don't think my poll is going to be published in a medical journal or anything. It was for curiousity's sake. So many post in the threads that they are indifferent/don't care or they are disappointed. I wanted to actually see the numbers rather than scan through pages and pages of quoted and re-quoted text. 

It doesn't have to be in a publication to mislead people. Dusk Warden I believe brought up another forum poll to try to back his position. That's an example of not understanding that the poll essentially tells us nothing except about the specific sample that voted on it. The results can't be generalized at all, not to BSN, and not to the fanbase.

I simply prefer not to help perpetuate people's confusion, even if my role would've been very small.

[Skadison]

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

[Vandicus]

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only fantasy RPGs.

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[Salaya]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

...

One can make a decision for more than one reason. Yes, one of the reasons was for resource conservation. However, the notion of family and that the family is affected by the mage/templar conflict are also major themes within the game. Ignoring or dismissing that is foolish. It isn't a binary situation.

But, then again, with better resource management and higher developement time, they surely could have added story tweaks to adress this issues. If they did not add those things, was only because they did not want to spend more money/resoruces.

Perfectly deep and complex stories could have been present with multiple races.

[Leoroc]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.

This is not true.

What you described are high level systemic barriers to entry.  That doesn't mean that the population that makes up the forum is a representative sample of the customer base of Dragon Age.

 

I know you arent responsible for the decision Allan, but the marketing survey done in German could not possibly  have gotten a good cross-section of the customer base of a game whose popularity is overwhelmingly in the Anglosphere.

[Terrorize69]

tmp7704 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

Yes, which is precisely why i asked "what is it that DA3 is going to allow to customize". Saying "stuff" isn't really answer to that

They don't and can't go into details as of yet, so "Stuff" is the best answer you'll get.

[ianvillan]

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only fantasy RPGs.

Both race and class got adressed in these games. Did you even play them? BG2 lets you have a thieves guild if your character is a thief. You get simmilar stuff for each class.

[Yuoaman]

I don't think this is Bioware taking the easy way out, it's allowing them to construct a much tighter narrative than a selectable race would allow.

[Atakuma]

Salaya wrote...

 You can certainly devise ways to add races that are cheaper and less resource consuming.

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

[OrganizedChaos826]

The way I see it, this just allows the DA team to put more extensive customization options in the Character Creator.
I'm fine with it.

[Rawgrim]

Yuoaman wrote...

I don't think this is Bioware taking the easy way out, it's allowing them to construct a much tighter narrative than a selectable race would allow.

Yup. Making it more akin to Assassin`s Creed, than games like Baldur`s Gate and such.

[Vandicus]

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

You're taking the attitude of the overarching plot being the focus of the game rather than the main character. From that PoV, DA:O was not about the Warden but about the Blight and the Archdemon. That's an entirely different attitude towards literary development(treating themes and character development as irrelevant or otherwise trivial details) which I'm not really interested in addressing, and that most writers don't use.

[ianvillan]

Yuoaman wrote...

I don't think this is Bioware taking the easy way out, it's allowing them to construct a much tighter narrative than a selectable race would allow.

DA2 had human only for story reasons and I believe the majority of people would agree that the story for DA2 was disjointed and the narrative was not very tight.

[Skadison]

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only video games. I note you specifically left off KoToR there. 

Actually I would like content to go with it.  I like how when I played a Drow in NWN2 people reacted to it.

Yes I left out KOTOR because KOTOR is a fantasy role playing game, oh and since you want to be smart about it you left out TOR, I was under the impression you could choose a race in that game.

Yes thats a very good point.  It's a flawed premise because.....I don't  know it seems to be a flawed premise because you think it is.

EDIT:  I've seen you've done a double edit.  You honestly seem like you're arguing for the sake of it.  The point is those are example of games that let you choose your race,  Those are prertty well known and established games and the list goes back more than a decade.

Hell the reason why you tend to pick races in fantasy video games is because of D&D, which is probably the most famous fantasy role playing game.  So in the spirit of the fantasy genre why leave it out?

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

Salaya wrote...

But, then again, with better resource management and higher developement time, they surely could have added story tweaks to adress this issues. If they did not add those things, was only because they did not want to spend more money/resoruces.

Perfectly deep and complex stories could have been present with multiple races.

Of course they could have done more with less limited time and resources, but that's not how it works.  The time and resources that will be made available for any given project is determined at the beginning.  Resource management is what determines why they can't have everything everyone has ever wanted in any given game.

Essentially, this request tells them to make an entirely different game.  I'm not arguing that quite a few people would prefer if they did, but that's what you're asking. 

Atakuma wrote...

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

Or, in other words, that.

Skadison wrote...

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

It's certainly not all of them.  Furthermore Dragon Age 3's predecessor already broke that tradition.  So... tradition doesn't really apply to the series anymore.  Which isn't to say racial choice can't return to it eventually, only "it's always that way" rings hollow.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .

[ianvillan]

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

You're taking the attitude of the overarching plot being the focus of the game rather than the main character. From that PoV, DA:O was not about the Warden but about the Blight and the Archdemon. That's an entirely different attitude towards literary development(treating themes and character development as irrelevant or otherwise trivial details) which I'm not really interested in addressing, and that most writers don't use.

I am saying that Hawkes rise to power could easily be achieved my a different race. what exactly did Hawke do being human that another race couldn't.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only fantasy RPGs.

Both race and class got adressed in these games. Did you even play them? BG2 lets you have a thieves guild if your character is a thief. You get simmilar stuff for each class.

As a general rule, the games that were listed treated class and race as largely irrelevant(minor exceptions occurred in some). Did you even play them? (only one on that list I haven't is GW2, which is actually radically different from the others on that list and is a real example of classes being taken into account, though I don't know if race is).

If the player is asking for something that truly acknowledges it along the lines of GW2 or ToR, where the main story changes based on class, that's not the same as say, NWN2, where choosing one's race is pretty much irrelevant.