3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Salaya]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

 Explosive words

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

See? We agree after all

No, jokes aside, I think other radical things as forgetting about voiced MC or multiplayer could give the race selection a viable outcome.

[Wulfram]

Vandicus wrote...

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

Hawke's family is barely related to the main plot at all.  Bethany serves as a tacked on and rather nonsensical excuse for why you need money in Act 1, which could be replaced with a moments thought.  And it plays into one quest in Act 2.  And in Act 3 Hawke may be totally without a family beyond an annoying Uncle anyway.

Again, look at it from my hypothetical one Origin Origins perspective.  From that perspective, the HN origin is far more important and irreplacably to the plot than Hawke's.  The whole plotline up to the Landsmeet from that perspective could be seen as basically a story of vengeance against Howe and Loghain.

[tmp7704]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

However, the notion of family and that the family is affected by the mage/templar conflict are also major themes within the game. Ignoring or dismissing that is foolish. It isn't a binary situation.

It's worth to keep in mind however that this theme can be presented in ways other than DA2 used, and that having such conflict in the game didn't actually require the Hawkes to be humans -- that'd also be a binary interpretation.

I.e. the Hawkes being elves doesn't exclude having a mage in the family and keeping the original tension. For dwarves a different approach would be required, but that easily creates opportunity for interesting plot of its own. Like having the sibling enter a relationship with a mage, e.g.

So overall it boils down to extra resources rather than inherent theme limitations, imo.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Rawgrim]

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

 You can certainly devise ways to add races that are cheaper and less resource consuming.

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

Very few rpgs use cinematics. Guess what? They ended up great anyway. Loads of them were made by Bioware too.

[Master Shiori]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

They couldn`t have written in some bit about an elf being decendant of some elf that has done something heroic for Kirkwall in the past? And thereby being given an estate? Or a dwarf having done something simmilar. Some uncle could have easily squandered that away over the years too. You just need to twist the "entryway" into the story abit for it to work.
[/quote]

No, they couldn't, because what you just suggested flies in the face of established lore.

Elves are second class citizens, forced to live in squalor and poverty, locked in what is basically a ghetto. Humans, both ordinary citizens and nobility, despise them. They're barely torelated as servants or menial labour at the docks.

Suggesting that such an elf would suddenly become a hero to the city is ridiculous. Even more so to claim he could have left a legacy that humans in KIrkwall would honor.

Same for dwarves. They're better off since they can be rich merchants, but that still doesn't make it possible for them to be nobility, claim titles or have a mage child.

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

As dwarves, yes. But why would a dwarf origin need Bethany or Carver as siblings? You could just stuff them in Kirkwall and have them be recruitable companions instead.
[/quote]

That's not the point. Ofc they could easily have made the into ordinary companions. But the whole point of family is to have a mother and siblings that make the story more personal for you.

Would you honestly feel the same connection to Bethany, the random mage you just recruited, as opposed to Bethany, the little sister you grew up with and looked out for?


[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

Yes. If the option to make Hawke human, dwarf, or elf was there, the DA2 story would have been more interesting. And yes. It would have required alot more work. They spent 6 years creating the first dragon age. 11 months on DA2. More work helps a game get better.
[quote]

That's pure supposition.

You cannot know for certain that the story would be better, unless all it takes for you to enjoy the story is the ability to play as an elf or dwarf. 
The story would certainly be very different, so much so that it would be impossible to judge it's quality without actually playing it first.

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...
But we are getting sidetracked from the topic, i fear. So lets just drop the subject?
[/quote]

Fair enough.

[marshalleck]

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

You're taking the attitude of the overarching plot being the focus of the game rather than the main character. From that PoV, DA:O was not about the Warden but about the Blight and the Archdemon. That's an entirely different attitude towards literary development(treating themes and character development as irrelevant or otherwise trivial details) which I'm not really interested in addressing, and that most writers don't use.

I am saying that Hawkes rise to power could easily be achieved my a different race. what exactly did Hawke do being human that another race couldn't.

 Walked up to Kirkwall's front door and asked to be let in, without immediately being laughed out of town.

[upsettingshorts]

ianvillan wrote...

I am saying that Hawkes rise to power could easily be achieved my a different race. what exactly did Hawke do being human that another race couldn't.

This is simply not the case.  Even if such an argument can be made in an abstract sense, you're not accounting for every single instance in which Dragon Age 2 considers and exploits something fixed about Hawke's character, including race.  That list includes everything from dialogue, quests, animations, models, etc.

Dragon Age 2 didn't even have female dwarves.  

Like I said, saying that Dragon Age 2 could have been rewritten to allow racial choice amounts to saying Dragon Age 2 could have been an entirely different game.

That's true, but then EVE could have also been more like Hello Kitty Online.

Salaya wrote...

No, jokes aside, I think other radical things as forgetting about voiced MC or multiplayer could give the race selection a viable outcome.

Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Vandicus]

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only video games. I note you specifically left off KoToR there. 

Actually I would like content to go with it.  I like how when I played a Drow in NWN2 people reacted to it.

Yes I left out KOTOR because KOTOR is a fantasy role playing game, oh and since you want to be smart about it you left out TOR, I was under the impression you could choose a race in that game.

Yes thats a very good point.  It's a flawed premise because.....I don't  know it seems to be a flawed premise because you think it is.

EDIT:  I've seen you've done a double edit.  You honestly seem like you're arguing for the sake of it.  The point is those are example of games that let you choose your race,  Those are prertty well known and established games.

Well I thought you'd object to KoToR being fantasy, and this would devolve into an argument about what constitutes fantasy and Star Wars sci-fi v fantasy.

The point I'm making here is, you're asking for content. 

You are not asking for a simple reskin like NWN2.

I want this content too.

Making comparisons to games where racial choice is a simple reskin, does not imply that this is about content. Race is a simple reskin in ToR. class is not. To draw an analogy to the class when you want reactive content like that would be appropriate, to draw an analogy to ToR's racial options when they are non-reactive would not be.

*EDIT

The flawed premise is that the video games you listed are the only rpgs(the only way in which you could possibly be addressing the point that many fantasy rpgs don't have racial customization).

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:21 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

marshalleck wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

You're taking the attitude of the overarching plot being the focus of the game rather than the main character. From that PoV, DA:O was not about the Warden but about the Blight and the Archdemon. That's an entirely different attitude towards literary development(treating themes and character development as irrelevant or otherwise trivial details) which I'm not really interested in addressing, and that most writers don't use.

I am saying that Hawkes rise to power could easily be achieved my a different race. what exactly did Hawke do being human that another race couldn't.

 Walked up to Kirkwall's front door and asked to be let in, without immediately being laughed out of town.

Don't worry, Hawkes actions in the actual game are laughing worth instead.

[Salaya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Salaya wrote...

But, then again, with better resource management and higher developement time, they surely could have added story tweaks to adress this issues. If they did not add those things, was only because they did not want to spend more money/resoruces.

Perfectly deep and complex stories could have been present with multiple races.

Of course they could have done more with less limited time and resources, but that's not how it works.  The time and resources that will be made available for any given project is determined at the beginning.  Resource management is what determines why they can't have everything everyone has ever wanted in any given game.

Essentially, this request tells them to make an entirely different game.  I'm not arguing that quite a few people would prefer if they did, but that's what you're asking.

So, I see we both agree that better resource management would have benefited the game.

I want a different game, yes. That's for sure. (I'm talking about DA2 now; I don't like the race absence in DA3, but who knows if the game its going to be good or not)

[upsettingshorts]

Salaya wrote...

So, I see we both agree that better resource management would have benefited the game. 

I want a different game, yes. That's for sure. (I'm talking about DA2 now; I don't like the race absence in DA3, but who knows if the game its going to be good or not)

No, we don't agree.  You're calling for different resource management, and saying it'd be better because it would prioritize features you personally prefer.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:22 .

[Rawgrim]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

They couldn`t have written in some bit about an elf being decendant of some elf that has done something heroic for Kirkwall in the past? And thereby being given an estate? Or a dwarf having done something simmilar. Some uncle could have easily squandered that away over the years too. You just need to twist the "entryway" into the story abit for it to work.
[/quote]

No, they couldn't, because what you just suggested flies in the face of established lore.

Elves are second class citizens, forced to live in squalor and poverty, locked in what is basically a ghetto. Humans, both ordinary citizens and nobility, despise them. They're barely torelated as servants or menial labour at the docks.

Suggesting that such an elf would suddenly become a hero to the city is ridiculous. Even more so to claim he could have left a legacy that humans in KIrkwall would honor.

Same for dwarves. They're better off since they can be rich merchants, but that still doesn't make it possible for them to be nobility, claim titles or have a mage child.

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

As dwarves, yes. But why would a dwarf origin need Bethany or Carver as siblings? You could just stuff them in Kirkwall and have them be recruitable companions instead.
[/quote]

That's not the point. Ofc they could easily have made the into ordinary companions. But the whole point of family is to have a mother and siblings that make the story more personal for you.

Would you honestly feel the same connection to Bethany, the random mage you just recruited, as opposed to Bethany, the little sister you grew up with and looked out for?


[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

Yes. If the option to make Hawke human, dwarf, or elf was there, the DA2 story would have been more interesting. And yes. It would have required alot more work. They spent 6 years creating the first dragon age. 11 months on DA2. More work helps a game get better.
[quote]

That's pure supposition.

You cannot know for certain that the story would be better, unless all it takes for you to enjoy the story is the ability to play as an elf or dwarf. 
The story would certainly be very different, so much so that it would be impossible to judge it's quality without actually playing it first.

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...
But we are getting sidetracked from the topic, i fear. So lets just drop the subject?
[/quote]

Fair enough.
[/quote]

Arl Eamon gives your elf warden the title of Champion. The warden also becomes the champion of Thedas, after defeating the blight. So YES. Non humans can get titles. its not against the lore at all. Whats ridicilous is that you missed those parts. or deliberatly ignored them.

[tmp7704]

Terrorize69 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, which is precisely why i asked "what is it that DA3 is going to allow to customize". Saying "stuff" isn't really answer to that

They don't and can't go into details as of yet, so "Stuff" is the best answer you'll get.

"I'll presume however that you simply can't go into more details at this point, and it's something that's reserved for more official announcements/blogs etc..?"

(the second paragraph of that post)

[Atakuma]

Rawgrim wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

 You can certainly devise ways to add races that are cheaper and less resource consuming.

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

Very few rpgs use cinematics. Guess what? They ended up great anyway. Loads of them were made by Bioware too.

Yeah, because that was the only example I gave.

[Salaya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[JEDI MIND TRICK]Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice[/JEDI MIND TRICK]

Fixed

No, I'm joking Really, I don't undertsand why you say this. Voiced MCs and multiplayer both cosnume money, resources and development time. All those things could be used to...well, add races.

[Rawgrim]

marshalleck wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If you're an elf, then your sister is still a mage, and you're still moving to .  If you're a dwarf, then you're going along because you're part of House Tethras.  Simple.

Obviously resources would need to be spent, but I don't see it's inherently any more problematic than Origins.  Maybe less.

If Human Noble had been the only background in Origins, I guess people would be telling us how we couldn't have the story without the PCs family connections and personal enmity with Howe, noble status or the ability to take the throne by marriage.

The Origins don't play a large role in DA:O's main plot. Hawke's family however, is a central focus in DA2's first two Acts, and remains relevant in the shortest and last Act.

What was Hawkes familys huge importance to the first two acts, a sibling that you hardly know dying in the first few minutes, and if the family was so important why do they disapear after you get back from the deep roads until a tiny bit in act 3. Then you have your mother who you hardly speak to or notice till she suddenly dissapears and is then killed of.

I would even say Varrics brother Bartran is more important to the story then any of your relatives.

You're taking the attitude of the overarching plot being the focus of the game rather than the main character. From that PoV, DA:O was not about the Warden but about the Blight and the Archdemon. That's an entirely different attitude towards literary development(treating themes and character development as irrelevant or otherwise trivial details) which I'm not really interested in addressing, and that most writers don't use.

I am saying that Hawkes rise to power could easily be achieved my a different race. what exactly did Hawke do being human that another race couldn't.

 Walked up to Kirkwall's front door and asked to be let in, without immediately being laughed out of town.

Or found another way in. Maybe with the help from Varric or someone else. 2 mins of thinking and more possebileties presents themselves.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No, we don't agree.  You're calling for different resource management, and saying it'd be better because it would prioritize features you personally prefer.

Not necessarily -- they may indeed mean better resource management, as in getting more out of these resources as result of being more effective with their use.

[marshalleck]

Salaya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[JEDI MIND TRICK]Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice[/JEDI MIND TRICK]

Fixed

No, I'm joking Really, I don't undertsand why you say this. Voiced MCs and multiplayer both cosnume money, resources and development time. All those things could be used to...well, add races.

Wow, trading voiced dialogue and MP for another blank-stare wooden protagonist and pointless race options is a horrible idea. 

[upsettingshorts]

Salaya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[JEDI MIND TRICK]Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice[/JEDI MIND TRICK]

Fixed

No, I'm joking Really, I don't undertsand why you say this. Voiced MCs and multiplayer both cosnume money, resources and development time. All those things could be used to...well, add races.

Not all resources are the same, come from the same pool, or are limited to supporting a single feature.

tmp7704 wrote...

Not necessarily -- they may indeed mean better resource management, as in getting more out of these resources as result of being more effective with their use.

Then they're arguing from a position of ignorance as they have no clue as to the quality of BioWare's resource management, and can only assume that because they don't like the outcome, that said resource management is bad.  It's an untenable position without inside information.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Vandicus]

Salaya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[JEDI MIND TRICK]Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice[/JEDI MIND TRICK]

Fixed

No, I'm joking Really, I don't undertsand why you say this. Voiced MCs and multiplayer both cosnume money, resources and development time. All those things could be used to...well, add races.

Voiced PCs are less expensive than people like to portray.

Multiplayer, you'd have a valid point, if Bioware were not a subsidiary. Its very doubtful that both SP and MP is being developed from a general fund(its observeable that this is not how the ME team operates). EA has likely allocated funds for the MP experience and for the SP experience.

[Salaya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Salaya wrote...
A very funny thing

No, we don't agree.  You're calling for different resource management, and saying it'd be better because it would prioritize features you personally prefer.

Features I personally prefer? No, just more features. Or different ones, if you want to forget about volitions. If a compromise between race/no race is to be made, I certainly believe better resource management could be used. Since, well, no race at all is not exactly a compromise with that particular problem.

I understand you don't recognize the problem of race/no race; but that's another story.

[Rawgrim]

Atakuma wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Salaya wrote...

 You can certainly devise ways to add races that are cheaper and less resource consuming.

Yes, you could for example get rid of gender options, severely cut down on the amount of armor that's in the game or just go for a fixed appearance like the companions have. You can also get rid of any cinematic that has the PC physically interacting with something, or have next to no unique racial content.

Very few rpgs use cinematics. Guess what? They ended up great anyway. Loads of them were made by Bioware too.

Yeah, because that was the only example I gave.

They DID cut down on the armours, and they DID go for fixed apearances. None of the characters (except Aveline) change their clothes in 7 years. Unless you have sex with one of them. Then they change. Wich isn`t too surprising since they have sex while wearing clothes. Gender options got way limited in DA2 as well. Its only recognized a few times. Mostly by Bethany or Carver calling you sister or brother. Romances are exactly the same no matter what gender you are.

They have cut back tons allready. What we got for it was cinematics, a story thats set in stone. Choices that don`t matter one bit, re-used maps, the dialogue wheel, and exploding bodies.

[Skadison]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only fantasy RPGs.

Both race and class got adressed in these games. Did you even play them? BG2 lets you have a thieves guild if your character is a thief. You get simmilar stuff for each class.

As a general rule, the games that were listed treated class and race as largely irrelevant(minor exceptions occurred in some). Did you even play them? (only one on that list I haven't is GW2, which is actually radically different from the others on that list and is a real example of classes being taken into account, though I don't know if race is).

If the player is asking for something that truly acknowledges it along the lines of GW2 or ToR, where the main story changes based on class, that's not the same as say, NWN2, where choosing one's race is pretty much irrelevant.

You're really quite obnoxious.  The only games that I haven't played on that list are BG and Icewind Dale.  Feel free to throw a fit because I haven't played two games on that list, which still doesn't change the fact you could still pick a race.

Considering the fact that in BG2 and Icewind Dale 2 there were references to your race I'm willing to gamble that in BG and Icewind Dale they had the same, see were I'm coming from?

Yes the very least I want are references to my race it doesn't have to change the game drastically.  I guess at the very least it should be just a change in appearance but that kinda sux.

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Uccio]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?