3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Salaya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Salaya wrote...
A very funny thing

No, we don't agree.  You're calling for different resource management, and saying it'd be better because it would prioritize features you personally prefer.

Features I personally prefer? No, just more features. Or different ones, if you want to forget about volitions. If a compromise between race/no race is to be made, I certainly believe better resource management could be used. Since, well, no race at all is not exactly a compromise with that particular problem.

I understand you don't recognize the problem of race/no race; but that's another story.

See, you don't really understand what the trade off is then. Its not a choice between race/no race. Its a choice between race, and what those resources could be used for elsewhere. I also contest your view that they could simply tighten their belts and operate more efficiently. Very easy to just say "Work harder, better, faster" and very difficult to actually do the work involved.

[Salaya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

...

Not all resources are the same, come from the same pool, or are limited to supporting a single feature.

Opportunity costs affect the product as a whole; that different pools of resources do not came from the same source assumes that the elements I want out are present.

Of course, the money and resources have different purposes, but in potential state, well, they could be perfectly used for something different.

[Maria Caliban]

Salaya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

[JEDI MIND TRICK]Neither is a significant barrier to racial choice[/JEDI MIND TRICK]

Fixed

No, I'm joking Really, I don't undertsand why you say this. Voiced MCs and multiplayer both cosnume money, resources and development time. All those things could be used to...well, add races.

The people who do the work on voices (actors, directors, and sound technicians) are not the people who do cinematics or create armor and weapon models. The same for the multiplayer people who are map makers, network programmers, etc.

So no, multiplayer and voice acting aren't the barriers to different races.

[tmp7704]

Vandicus wrote...

Voiced PCs are less expensive than people like to portray.

If i remember right, PC in DA2 had voice budget (in terms of lines and such) equal to the entire rest of the cast combined. Or something close to that. 2 genders * three choices + dominant mood variations + inquires, and having something to say in pretty much all scenes... it adds up fast.

[Allan Schumacher]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ultima VII isn't considered one of the greatest RPGs of all time because of its character customization, is it? More like, the game is otherwise good enough to overcome that particular shortcoming.

What i mean by it is, just because a game is called "one of the greatest" doesn't mean everything it does is 'the greatest' way to do things in an RPG.

No, it's not.  But I'd consider it's character creator to be worse than DA2's, which is what I was replying to in my original post.

I added that it's a highly regarded RPG to illustrate that an RPG can still be a great RPG without amazing character creator options.  It's the sum of its parts.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rawgrim wrote...

They DID cut down on the armours

There were more armor models in DA2 than there were in DAO. DAO had more reskins of their existing armor models.

[upsettingshorts]

Salaya wrote...

Features I personally prefer? No, just more features. Or different ones, if you want to forget about volitions. If a compromise between race/no race is to be made, I certainly believe better resource management could be used. Since, well, no race at all is not exactly a compromise with that particular problem. 

No.

BioWare doesn't just "take out" racial options and then proceed as normal.  By fixing an aspect of the protagonist, elements of the game can be built around that choice and yes, resources can be spent in such a way that recognizes and exploits the fact the protagonist is human.  It's a way of distributing resources.  Another way of distributing resources would be to allow racial choice, but not include much that acknowledges that race within the game.  That's another way of distributing resources.

Including racial choice and a great deal of acknowledgement of that choice would consume as many more resources as there were choices.  

Salaya wrote...

I understand you don't recognize the problem of race/no race; but that's another story.

No.

I'm saying you're presenting the issue as:

Racial choice vs. nothing at all. 

I'm saying that's not how it works.  It's:

Racial choice vs. something else.

This is a key distinction.  It is possible to prefer that something else, either as a developer or as a fan. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is offtopic but I always figured I'd have chosen to do DN->Bhelen, DC->Harrowmont. 

Bhelen gets involved with the DC's sister and offers casteless more freedoms, while Harrowmont is for tradition and Bhelen frames (or manipulates) the DN for his brother's death.

I know, I played all the origins.  What's your point?  That each origin is somehow a fixed character?  Hah.

It's not terribly hard to come up with reasons for Aeducan to support Bhelen, or Brosca to support Harrowmont. 

I thought you hadn't played the respective Origins, so I decided to provide some information for you. That's pretty much the extent of it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:32 .

[marshalleck]

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

Why would Kirkwallers award one of their citizens a title of "Hero of Fereldan"?

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The people who do the work on voices (actors, directors, and sound technicians) are not the people who do cinematics or create armor and weapon models. The same for the multiplayer people who are map makers, network programmers, etc.

You don't shape your game based on the composition of the staff. You hire the staff based on what you are planning to make.

If you decide your game needs multiplayer component, you hire network programmers, map makers etc at the cost of not hiring more actors, cinematic makers etc. In this sense these are interchangeable in terms of resource allocation.

[Vandicus]

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only fantasy RPGs.

Both race and class got adressed in these games. Did you even play them? BG2 lets you have a thieves guild if your character is a thief. You get simmilar stuff for each class.

As a general rule, the games that were listed treated class and race as largely irrelevant(minor exceptions occurred in some). Did you even play them? (only one on that list I haven't is GW2, which is actually radically different from the others on that list and is a real example of classes being taken into account, though I don't know if race is).

If the player is asking for something that truly acknowledges it along the lines of GW2 or ToR, where the main story changes based on class, that's not the same as say, NWN2, where choosing one's race is pretty much irrelevant.

You're really quite obnoxious aren't you (especially for somebody who had to triple edit his post because he realised he shoot himself in the foot)?  The only games that I haven't played on that list are BG and Icewind Dale.  Feel free to throw a fit because I haven't played two games on that list, which still doesn't change the fact you could still pick a race.

Considering the fact that in BG2 and Icewind Dale 2 there were references to your race I'm willing to gamble that in BG and Icewind Dale they had the same, see were I'm coming from?

Yes the very least I want are references to my race it doesn't have to change the game drastically.  I guess at the very least it should be just a change in appearance but that kinda sux.

The comment was directed to Rawgrim, who questioned whether I had played the games and tried to imply irrelevance as a result[he does that quite a bit](please read what I say in its entirety before you post, and consider them in context). I said I have not played GW2.

Game that is reactive to race/class !=simple reskin and versimilitude breaking nonreactions

The setting of Thedas is also dramatically different to the setting of the D&D verses mentioned there. Interracial conflict is huge in Thedas. Glossing it over can be immersion breaking. Addressing it requires actual content, which is quite different from how they're addressed in those games(excepting GW2 which has reactive content for classes).

[Rawgrim]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

They DID cut down on the armours

There were more armor models in DA2 than there were in DAO. DAO had more reskins of their existing armor models.

Could be you are right. i had sold about 50 armours when I was at chapter 2 anyway, since nobody could wear them but me. Made me filthy rich early, and the game got way easier because of it. Yet more choices removed to simplify the game.

[Rawgrim]

marshalleck wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

Why would Kirkwallers award one of their citizens a title of "Hero of Fereldan"?

Seriously?

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

i am pretty sure its because he is Bioware`s character. A human named Hawke. Its like someone creates a character for you. Starts the game, and then lets you play the rest. 

Specifically from a character creation point (since it's what you've highlighted), what's the difference between Hawke and Cousland? 

Well Cousland to my knowledge doesn't have a semi-canon default appearence. 

The start of Dragon Age II was... odd. It's more than a little uncomfortable when Varric is telling the story of a Caucasian Hawke (which seems to be the story he's been telling for nearly a decade now) if you're planning to make a non-white Hawke.

[The Elder King]

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

It's not the same thing. The Hero of Ferelden is not an official title, and the a elf, dwarf or mage Warden is treated differently in comparison to a normal elf, dwarf and mage (although that doesn't prevent racist comment). All the Wardens start from the same situation. They're not generally considered anymore by their race or status before the Joining, but by their role.
We have no idea if the Champion's title could be given to other
races.  And even if it could, and elf or a dwarf wouldn't be able to became noble after Act 1. Which will make the possibility of the story working in Act 2 a lot more difficult, if not impossible.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Salaya]

Wish I could keep arguing with you, Upsettingshorts, but I have to go. I'm only going to say now that your answer shows again that we agree. It's horrible, I know, but we must keep living with it

[Allan Schumacher]

tmp7704 wrote...

As DA:O also allowed the player to customize their crafting abilities, and equip all types of weapons and armour if they so wished, without more details i'm afraid i don't see yet where this "more customization than DAO" is coming from. I'll presume however that you simply can't go into more details at this point, and it's something that's reserved for more official announcements/blogs etc..?

To be straight up, DAO's crafting was poor.

And yes, it's not really my place to start discussing things that haven't been announced yet.

[Vandicus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Voiced PCs are less expensive than people like to portray.

If i remember right, PC in DA2 had voice budget (in terms of lines and such) equal to the entire rest of the cast combined. Or something close to that. 2 genders * three choices + dominant mood variations + inquires, and having something to say in pretty much all scenes... it adds up fast.

Would you like me to change that to 'Voice Acting in general is less expensive than people like to portray"? The PC and companions do make up the majority of dialog, but not the lion's share of the general budget(which is a common premise that I've seen). 

[Argetfalcon]

I always play human anyway

[Felya87]

we always speak, when referring to a hipotetical Hawke Elf/Dwarf, as if he should be related to the human family.

instead, just think this: if a Hawke/Dwarf (of course, it would not be called Hawke at this point) was related to Varric's family, instead of the Amell?
and the Hawke/Elf was related with, say, Feynriel's(sorry, don't remember the name...the half Elf) mother?

and relagate the Hawke (Bethany, Carven and their mother) to family friend or people who know him/her from when him/her was a child, and where so friend to even let him/her know about the mage sibling?

with a little thinking, it's possible create a veriosimilar thing. for the fact "Kirkwall won't accept a Elf as Campion" I say "why?" after all, Ferelden accepted a Hero who could be not only Elf, but mage too. And Kirkwall accepted a mage as champion. I think is much more arder that to accept than have an Elf as Champion...
after all, Hawke is not so loved...in the eyes of Kirkwall, he/she is still a Fereldian. mage or not.

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

If you decide your game needs multiplayer component, you hire network programmers, map makers etc at the cost of not hiring more actors, cinematic makers etc. In this sense these are interchangeable in terms of resource allocation.

Or you get entirely different budgets to work with - including for paying people - if your game has a multiplayer component vs. if it doesn't.  

tmp7704 wrote...

If i remember right, PC in DA2 had voice budget (in terms of lines and such) equal to the entire rest of the cast combined. Or something close to that. 2 genders * three choices + dominant mood variations + inquires, and having something to say in pretty much all scenes... it adds up fast.

Every single argument that relies on asserting that voice acting is the barrier to racial choice insists on presuming that in the event BioWare wanted to do both racial choice and VO, they'd have to keep the notion that accents vary among races.  Which isn't necessarily true.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:39 .

[marshalleck]

Rawgrim wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


The blight is reason enogh to be on the run. If they lost everything, but have contacts in Kirkwall, that would be motivation enough to go there.

- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

Why would Kirkwallers award one of their citizens a title of "Hero of Fereldan"?

Seriously?

Problem? 

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or you get entirely different budgets to work with - including for paying people - if your game has a multiplayer component vs. if it doesn't.  

But then you can hardly anymore make an argument how resource allocation is always all about differently allocating one and the same, fixed amount of them.

[Rawgrim]

[/quote]

The comment was directed to Rawgrim, who questioned whether I had played the games and tried to imply irrelevance as a result[he does that quite a bit](please read what I say in its entirety before you post, and consider them in context). I said I have not played GW2.

Game that is reactive to race/class !=simple reskin and versimilitude breaking nonreactions

The setting of Thedas is also dramatically different to the setting of the D&D verses mentioned there. Interracial conflict is huge in Thedas. Glossing it over can be immersion breaking. Addressing it requires actual content, which is quite different from how they're addressed in those games(excepting GW2 which has reactive content for classes).

[/quote]

I said that because you said BG2 didn`t acknowledge your race, gender or class (pretty much). meaning you can`t have played the game since its impossible to miss all the time its being refferenced to in the game.

Really? the Forgotten Realms don`t have huge interracial conflicts? Drow elves vs elves? Dwarves vs orcs.? Its also reffered to ALOT in d&d games as well. You even have huge quests about it. Icewind Dale 2 is BASED on it. The entire plot of the game.

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

As DA:O also allowed the player to customize their crafting abilities, and equip all types of weapons and armour if they so wished, without more details i'm afraid i don't see yet where this "more customization than DAO" is coming from. I'll presume however that you simply can't go into more details at this point, and it's something that's reserved for more official announcements/blogs etc..?

To be straight up, DAO's crafting was poor.

And yes, it's not really my place to start discussing things that haven't been announced yet.

I dont agree with that, it may not of been brilliant but I wouldn't say it was poor but how Bioware ever thought DA2s crafting was better is puzzling to me.