3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

I seriously doubt that BioWare could skip multiplayer at this time.

[Fallstar]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.

This is not true.

What you described are high level systemic barriers to entry.  That doesn't mean that the population that makes up the forum is a representative sample of the customer base of Dragon Age.

I have no idea what a high level systemic barrier to entry is.

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base. If you're capable of using the internet, and are interested enough in DA to do a search for "Dragon Age", then you could end up here. Are there any other barriers to entry?

I understand that the general atmosphere could be off putting to certain types of customer on some game forums, but I don't think the atmosphere here is (usually) that hostile.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or you get entirely different budgets to work with - including for paying people - if your game has a multiplayer component vs. if it doesn't.  

But then you can hardly anymore make an argument how resource allocation is always all about differently allocating one and the same, fixed amount of them.

But you can, since not all zots are the same.

It's entirely one thing to say, "We're getting more money to add more network programmers" and entirely another to say, "If we fix the protagonist as human in this story, we can have more stuff that relies on his/her human-ness."  

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

It's not the same thing. The Hero of Ferelden is not an official title, and the a elf, dwarf or mage Warden is treated differently in comparison to a normal elf, dwarf and mage (although that doesn't prevent racist comment). All the Wardens start from the same situation. They're not generally considered anymore by their race or status before the Joining, but by their role.
We have no idea if the Champion's title could be given to other
races.  And even if it could, and elf or a dwarf wouldn't be able to became noble after Act 1. Which will make the possibility of the story working in Act 2 a lot more difficult, if not impossible.

Alistair, as a king, proclaims the title. That makes it official.

The Champion of Redcliffe, however, is an official title to begin with. And that one is given to the Warden no matter what race he or she is. Ergo, a champion title can be given to non humans. Its right there in the game and in the lore.

[99DP1982]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

If you decide your game needs multiplayer component, you hire network programmers, map makers etc at the cost of not hiring more actors, cinematic makers etc. In this sense these are interchangeable in terms of resource allocation.

Or you get entirely different budgets to work with - including for paying people - if your game has a multiplayer component vs. if it doesn't.  

Yes, because a company can create a seperate budget for everything without having their global plan and revenue streams for a year in perspective...

I guess you haven't worked in either finance, consulting or senior managment of any company, have you?

[upsettingshorts]

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base

The BSN is hardly ever in agreement anyway.

Take a look at the consensus on this issue back on page 11.  

(There is no consensus)

99DP1982 wrote...

Yes, because a company can create a seperate budget for everything without having their global plan and revenue streams for a year in perspective...

Who do you think is making those decisions?

I'm simply asserting that a game that proposes to include multiplayer will be able to request a larger budget from its publisher than one that does not.  I do not believe that position is particularly controversial.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Skadison]

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only video games. I note you specifically left off KoToR there. 

Actually I would like content to go with it.  I like how when I played a Drow in NWN2 people reacted to it.

Yes I left out KOTOR because KOTOR is a fantasy role playing game, oh and since you want to be smart about it you left out TOR, I was under the impression you could choose a race in that game.

Yes thats a very good point.  It's a flawed premise because.....I don't  know it seems to be a flawed premise because you think it is.

EDIT:  I've seen you've done a double edit.  You honestly seem like you're arguing for the sake of it.  The point is those are example of games that let you choose your race,  Those are prertty well known and established games.

Well I thought you'd object to KoToR being fantasy, and this would devolve into an argument about what constitutes fantasy and Star Wars sci-fi v fantasy.

The point I'm making here is, you're asking for content. 

You are not asking for a simple reskin like NWN2.

I want this content too.

Making comparisons to games where racial choice is a simple reskin, does not imply that this is about content. Race is a simple reskin in ToR. class is not. To draw an analogy to the class when you want reactive content like that would be appropriate, to draw an analogy to ToR's racial options when they are non-reactive would not be.

*EDIT

The flawed premise is that the video games you listed are the only rpgs(the only way in which you could possibly be addressing the point that many fantasy rpgs don't have racial customization).

No NWN2 had content.  People react to you differently if you're a Drow and on at least one ocassion there is extra dialogue option (when you talk to a giant spider).  Thats not a simple reskin.

At the very least I think you should have a reskin.  Again not sure what you're point here is in DA 3 we don't even have that choice.

Thats not a flawed premise.  Of course they're not the only rpgs but they're arguably some of the most famous and popular especially when you're talking about BG.  Should we be adding obscure rpgs to the list?

EDIT: Argh!  I haven't played DA2  this thread is crawling with spoilers.  *ducks spoiler*

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I probably wouldn't have liked it, then. I wasn't a fan of Hawke; I found him to be very passive, and reactive instead of proactive. Doing nothing about Petrice, doing nothing in the Bethany/Cullen situation, doing nothing about Quentin's note, doing nothing about Meredith's dictatorship for three years. I wouldn't have liked him as an elf or a dwarf if he remained the same. Just my two cents, of course. 

You mean Carver, right? Or when Cullen took Bethany away? 

I meant when Cullen took Bethany away.

[Mike_Neel]

I don't see it as the "lazier" choice, just the cheaper choice.

I can't help but think that if EA and Bioware took the games marketing and advertising budget, which I'd assume is equal to if not great than the actual dev budget then they could afford to spend time on making races work again. Of course I know that's not really Biowares call on the matter nor is it early enough to implement.

I just can't help but cringe when I see all these "epic" live action trailers or CG trailers that are obviously not gameplay that I can't help but imagine cost a ton of money not only to make but purchase ad slots on tv and review sites. Especially games like DAIII where the primary audience isn't going to be swayed by fancy trailers but instead are waiting to see gameplay and more before they decide. In fact I feel that's true for a lot of gamers.

But I guess a cheaper game is worth it getting an extra sale from Sally Gamer or Joe DudeBro who saw the "totally epic new game trailer" on youtube and that enough was all they need.

And I'm sure Allan or Chris or Epler will come in and say "well that budget isn't a part of the games budget. They're totally separate. Bioware doesn't even influence or have a say in that." and yes I know that but still, why not take the ad budget and lower it and just cut a bigger check to Bioware anyways. Because that's what this all really about. Every time it's brought up you always see someone like Gaider say "Well sure we wish we could give you everything but it's not practical and we just don't have the time and resources."

[Fallstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base

The BSN is hardly ever in agreement anyway.

Take a look at the consensus on this issue back on page 11.  

(There is no consensus)

Most of the polls I've made or looked at are evenly split or close enough that you can't say the results mean anything at a reasonable confidance level. So I agree, but I'm still curious as to why the devs think these forums aren't representative.

[ianvillan]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base

The BSN is hardly ever in agreement anyway.

Take a look at the consensus on this issue back on page 11.  

(There is no consensus)

I would say there is a consensus on not having re-used environments again.

[Maria Caliban]

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base. If you're capable of using the internet, and are interested enough in DA to do a search for "Dragon Age", then you could end up here. Are there any other barriers to entry?

The majority of DA's customer base would not be wasting their time day after day, year after year, on the DA forum. I've played 12+ games this year and have logged onto the internet forum of one of them and that's because I already was registered.

[mousestalker]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
{snip}
The BSN is hardly ever in agreement anyway.

Take a look at the consensus on this issue back on page 11.  

(There is no consensus)
{snip}

I beg to differ. That's nigh unanimity, that is.

[Allan Schumacher]

Felya87 wrote...

we always speak, when referring to a hipotetical Hawke Elf/Dwarf, as if he should be related to the human family.

instead, just think this: if a Hawke/Dwarf (of course, it would not be called Hawke at this point) was related to Varric's family, instead of the Amell?
and the Hawke/Elf was related with, say, Feynriel's(sorry, don't remember the name...the half Elf) mother?

This boils down to a request for more content.  It's not just "make Hawke a dwarf."  It's "Make Hawke a dwarf and build up content around it so it makes sense within the framework of the current story."

I think people are trivializing this cost.

[Rawgrim]

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only video games. I note you specifically left off KoToR there. 

Actually I would like content to go with it.  I like how when I played a Drow in NWN2 people reacted to it.

Yes I left out KOTOR because KOTOR is a fantasy role playing game, oh and since you want to be smart about it you left out TOR, I was under the impression you could choose a race in that game.

Yes thats a very good point.  It's a flawed premise because.....I don't  know it seems to be a flawed premise because you think it is.

EDIT:  I've seen you've done a double edit.  You honestly seem like you're arguing for the sake of it.  The point is those are example of games that let you choose your race,  Those are prertty well known and established games.

Well I thought you'd object to KoToR being fantasy, and this would devolve into an argument about what constitutes fantasy and Star Wars sci-fi v fantasy.

The point I'm making here is, you're asking for content. 

You are not asking for a simple reskin like NWN2.

I want this content too.

Making comparisons to games where racial choice is a simple reskin, does not imply that this is about content. Race is a simple reskin in ToR. class is not. To draw an analogy to the class when you want reactive content like that would be appropriate, to draw an analogy to ToR's racial options when they are non-reactive would not be.

*EDIT

The flawed premise is that the video games you listed are the only rpgs(the only way in which you could possibly be addressing the point that many fantasy rpgs don't have racial customization).

No NWN2 had content.  People react to you differently if you're a Drow and on at least one ocassion there is extra dialogue option (when you talk to a giant spider).  Thats not a simple reskin.

At the very least I think you should have a reskin.  Again not sure what you're point here is in DA 3 we don't even have that choice.

Thats not a flawed premise.  Of course they're not the only rpgs but they're arguably some of the most famous and popular especially when you're talking about BG.  Should we be adding obscure rpgs to the list?

EDIT: Argh!  I haven't played DA2  this thread is crawling with spoilers.  *ducks spoiler*

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[upsettingshorts]

DuskWarden wrote...

Most of the polls I've made or looked at are evenly split or close enough that you can't say the results mean anything at a reasonable confidance level. So I agree, but I'm still curious as to why the devs think these forums aren't representative. 

Well given the topic of the thread, if we stick with racial choice, the feedback around here towards that position I'd say is split, leaning towards slightly opposed, with a plurality indifferent. The number of people responding is somewhere at or below a hundred or therebouts.

BioWare's internal metrics provides feedback in the millions of customers, and indicates a strong (~90%) bias towards human protagonists in DA:O.  

mousestalker wrote...

I beg to differ. That's nigh unanimity, that is.

The funny thing is people - not you - will cite this poll seriously.

ianvillan wrote...

I would say there is a consensus on not having re-used environments again.

Definitely, but that's not the topic.  BioWare doesn't even like the re-used enviornments.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:49 .

[ianvillan]

Mike_Neel wrote...

I don't see it as the "lazier" choice, just the cheaper choice.

I can't help but think that if EA and Bioware took the games marketing and advertising budget, which I'd assume is equal to if not great than the actual dev budget then they could afford to spend time on making races work again. Of course I know that's not really Biowares call on the matter nor is it early enough to implement.

I just can't help but cringe when I see all these "epic" live action trailers or CG trailers that are obviously not gameplay that I can't help but imagine cost a ton of money not only to make but purchase ad slots on tv and review sites. Especially games like DAIII where the primary audience isn't going to be swayed by fancy trailers but instead are waiting to see gameplay and more before they decide. In fact I feel that's true for a lot of gamers.

But I guess a cheaper game is worth it getting an extra sale from Sally Gamer or Joe DudeBro who saw the "totally epic new game trailer" on youtube and that enough was all they need.

And I'm sure Allan or Chris or Epler will come in and say "well that budget isn't a part of the games budget. They're totally separate. Bioware doesn't even influence or have a say in that." and yes I know that but still, why not take the ad budget and lower it and just cut a bigger check to Bioware anyways. Because that's what this all really about. Every time it's brought up you always see someone like Gaider say "Well sure we wish we could give you everything but it's not practical and we just don't have the time and resources."

Bioware is actually meant to be in charge of the all marketing for the games they make, Scary I know.

[Skadison]

Rawgrim wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...



Customization can incorporate a lot more than just race choice.  There's the obvious weapons/armor variation, but can also include things like crafting and stuff like that too.

With all due respect how is that a good point?  That still doesn't change the fact that you have less choice.  I'm not saying that these thing yoiu mentioned aren't a good thing but for crying out loud being able to choose a race especially in a fantasy setting is like an established tradition.

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

So are you requesting simple character reskins that are never addressed by the story? (I swear i should make this my sig or something, people try to use these examples so much and then it really turns out they want actual content to go with it)

*EDIT

Also, flawed premise of those being the only video games. I note you specifically left off KoToR there. 

Actually I would like content to go with it.  I like how when I played a Drow in NWN2 people reacted to it.

Yes I left out KOTOR because KOTOR is a fantasy role playing game, oh and since you want to be smart about it you left out TOR, I was under the impression you could choose a race in that game.

Yes thats a very good point.  It's a flawed premise because.....I don't  know it seems to be a flawed premise because you think it is.

EDIT:  I've seen you've done a double edit.  You honestly seem like you're arguing for the sake of it.  The point is those are example of games that let you choose your race,  Those are prertty well known and established games.

Well I thought you'd object to KoToR being fantasy, and this would devolve into an argument about what constitutes fantasy and Star Wars sci-fi v fantasy.

The point I'm making here is, you're asking for content. 

You are not asking for a simple reskin like NWN2.

I want this content too.

Making comparisons to games where racial choice is a simple reskin, does not imply that this is about content. Race is a simple reskin in ToR. class is not. To draw an analogy to the class when you want reactive content like that would be appropriate, to draw an analogy to ToR's racial options when they are non-reactive would not be.

*EDIT

The flawed premise is that the video games you listed are the only rpgs(the only way in which you could possibly be addressing the point that many fantasy rpgs don't have racial customization).

No NWN2 had content.  People react to you differently if you're a Drow and on at least one ocassion there is extra dialogue option (when you talk to a giant spider).  Thats not a simple reskin.

At the very least I think you should have a reskin.  Again not sure what you're point here is in DA 3 we don't even have that choice.

Thats not a flawed premise.  Of course they're not the only rpgs but they're arguably some of the most famous and popular especially when you're talking about BG.  Should we be adding obscure rpgs to the list?

EDIT: Argh!  I haven't played DA2  this thread is crawling with spoilers.  *ducks spoiler*

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played NWN2 to the end because I know what happens to some of your NPCs (trying not to use spoilers).

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Felya87]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Felya87 wrote...

we always speak, when referring to a hipotetical Hawke Elf/Dwarf, as if he should be related to the human family.

instead, just think this: if a Hawke/Dwarf (of course, it would not be called Hawke at this point) was related to Varric's family, instead of the Amell?
and the Hawke/Elf was related with, say, Feynriel's(sorry, don't remember the name...the half Elf) mother?

This boils down to a request for more content.  It's not just "make Hawke a dwarf."  It's "Make Hawke a dwarf and build up content around it so it makes sense within the framework of the current story."

I think people are trivializing this cost.

sorry, my point was just a story related point.

[Allan Schumacher]

ianvillan wrote...

I dont agree with that, it may not of been brilliant but I wouldn't say it was poor but how Bioware ever thought DA2s crafting was better is puzzling to me.

I didn't think DA2's was very good either.  I find them to be largely the same.  The only real difference is how the resources are acquired and where the crafting can take place.


Personally, anyone that says that DAO's crafting (with my pause the world and quickly conjure up 40 potions while in combat mechanics) wasn't poor is probably looking back with rose colored glasses.

Especially compared to a game like NWN2 or a host of other games.  (I'd also argue that crafting did very little for character customization in both games).

[Uccio]

hhh89 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

It's not the same thing. The Hero of Ferelden is not an official title, and the a elf, dwarf or mage Warden is treated differently in comparison to a normal elf, dwarf and mage (although that doesn't prevent racist comment). All the Wardens start from the same situation. They're not generally considered anymore by their race or status before the Joining, but by their role.
We have no idea if the Champion's title could be given to other
races.  And even if it could, and elf or a dwarf wouldn't be able to became noble after Act 1. Which will make the possibility of the story working in Act 2 a lot more difficult, if not impossible.

It´s not relevant for the story to become a noble. Not even if you side with templars and become city leader (briefly) since it has zero effect on the game itself. Other races can be wealthy like it was shown in the DA2. Becoming Champion is not ruled out just because of the race since all it requires a good storyline. Heck, even in this thread there have been some suggestions how it could have been done. Just think what people who get paid and have weeks to do it can achieve.

[Rawgrim]

[/quote]

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[/quote]

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played it to the end because I know she dies at the end.

[/quote]

She never romanced my Dwarf, though. And she doesn`t allways die in the end. Depends on how you play it. You choices actually affects the ending of the game. A rather unusuall thing for an rpg to implement now adays.

[Palipride47]

Maria Caliban wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base. If you're capable of using the internet, and are interested enough in DA to do a search for "Dragon Age", then you could end up here. Are there any other barriers to entry?

The majority of DA's customer base would not be wasting their time day after day, year after year, on the DA forum. I've played 12+ games this year and have logged onto the internet forum of one of them and that's because I already was registered.

Lest we forget, there are people in this world who have lives and don't post all the time on the forums (unlike me ) or people who *horror* don't have internet at home *horror*

[upsettingshorts]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Personally, anyone that says that DAO's crafting (with my pause the world and quickly conjure up 40 potions while in combat mechanics) wasn't poor is probably looking back with rose colored glasses.

DA:O's potion crafting was as close as a feature can get to being a cheat mode as one can get without actually being one.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Rawgrim]

Ukki wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...


- As an elves or a dwarves, Hawke family cannot be descended from nobility, which makes it impossible to get an estate in Hightown or for Hawke to become a Champion, since elves and dwarves cannot receive human titles.

Oh you mean like Hero of Fereldan?

It's not the same thing. The Hero of Ferelden is not an official title, and the a elf, dwarf or mage Warden is treated differently in comparison to a normal elf, dwarf and mage (although that doesn't prevent racist comment). All the Wardens start from the same situation. They're not generally considered anymore by their race or status before the Joining, but by their role.
We have no idea if the Champion's title could be given to other
races.  And even if it could, and elf or a dwarf wouldn't be able to became noble after Act 1. Which will make the possibility of the story working in Act 2 a lot more difficult, if not impossible.

It´s not relevant for the story to become a noble. Not even if you side with templars and become city leader (briefly) since it has zero effect on the game itself. Other races can be wealthy like it was shown in the DA2. Becoming Champion is not ruled out just because of the race since all it requires a good storyline. Heck, even in this thread there have been some suggestions how it could have been done. Just think what people who get paid and have weeks to do it can achieve.

The Champion of Redcliffe title is given to non humans too. Ergo there is no point in discussin that bit anymore. Its in the game, and its in the lore.