3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadison]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...





[/quote]

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[/quote]

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played it to the end because I know she dies at the end.

[/quote]

She never romanced my Dwarf, though. And she doesn`t allways die in the end. Depends on how you play it. You choices actually affects the ending of the game. A rather unusuall thing for an rpg to implement now adays.

[/quote]

I think she didn't romance you because you were a dwarf.  She doesn't die??  You sure?

Modifié par Skadison, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Fallstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I am curious however, as to what makes you think the BSN isn't a representative sample of the DA customer base. If you're capable of using the internet, and are interested enough in DA to do a search for "Dragon Age", then you could end up here. Are there any other barriers to entry?

The majority of DA's customer base would not be wasting their time day after day, year after year, on the DA forum. I've played 12+ games this year and have logged onto the internet forum of one of them and that's because I already was registered.

Posting every day isn't a requirement to use these forums though. I expect the number of people who check in every few days, weeks or months will far exceed the people who post near enough every day.

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I didn't think DA2's was very good either.  I find them to be largely the same.  The only real difference is how the resources are acquired and where the crafting can take place.

No, the real difference was the busy work required. In DA:O I never crafted a damn thing and hated crafting with a passion. In DA II, I made dozens of potions and runes for my peeps.

'Simple and accessible' is very good.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But you can, since not all zots are the same.

It's entirely one thing to say, "We're getting more money to add more network programmers" and entirely another to say, "If we fix the protagonist as human in this story, we can have more stuff that relies on his/her human-ness."  

And either of those is entirely different thing to say from "by choosing more X you have to give up on Y" which was the dominant theme of this discussion until last couple of pages; where X and Y were any two components of the game, without anyone making a caveat "well, with exception of multiplayer because multiplayer gets its own zots".

Or at least i didn't notice anyone making a specific mention of that.

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA:O's potion crafting was as close as a feature can get to being a cheat mode as one can get without actually being one.

It's a crafting system.  Of course it's going to break the game.  They always do.

(DA2's didn't so much, but then it's not a crafting system so much as a different type of shopping)

Modifié par Wulfram, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:54 .

[ianvillan]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Most of the polls I've made or looked at are evenly split or close enough that you can't say the results mean anything at a reasonable confidance level. So I agree, but I'm still curious as to why the devs think these forums aren't representative. 

Well given the topic of the thread, if we stick with racial choice, the feedback around here towards that position I'd say is split, leaning towards slightly opposed, with a plurality indifferent. The number of people responding is somewhere at or below a hundred or therebouts.

BioWare's internal metrics provides feedback in the millions of customers, and indicates a strong (~90%) bias towards human protagonists in DA:O.  

mousestalker wrote...

I beg to differ. That's nigh unanimity, that is.

The funny thing is people - not you - will cite this poll seriously.

Well lets hope there is no internal metrics for DA:I or else they will say that 80% of players chose background 2 lets scrap all other backgrounds.

Or maybe they are using DA2 metric and have worked out that the majority of players choose the rogue class so they are cutting the other classes and that most chose dual wield for the rogue so they will cut out the archery, and that the majority chose assassin as the spec so they are cutting the other specs.

If the internal metrics are so important then they should use all metrics not just pick and choose which they use.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

What's so bad about DAO crafting system? Just get the ingredients and tap the A button to death! Simple.

[Rawgrim]

[quote]Skadison wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...





[/quote]

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[/quote]

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played it to the end because I know she dies at the end.

[/quote]

She never romanced my Dwarf, though. And she doesn`t allways die in the end. Depends on how you play it. You choices actually affects the ending of the game. A rather unusuall thing for an rpg to implement now adays.

[/quote]

You choose a dwarf hahaha!!!  She doesn't die??  You sure?

[/quote]

Unless I remember it completely wrong, she didn`t die in my game. Had to do with the influence points you have over your followers. Some dies, some betrays you. Stuff like that. Makes the endings abit different each time.

[Fallstar]

Wulfram wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DA:O's potion crafting was as close as a feature can get to being a cheat mode as one can get without actually being one.

It's a crafting system.  Of course it's going to break the game.  They always do.

(DA2's didn't so much, but then it's not a crafting system)

This. At least you couldn't infinitely loop different crafting skills to achieve arbitrarily large buffs like in Skyrim.

[Fast Jimmy]

Bahahahaaaaa!!!

Maria, your sig had me gaffawing loudly. When did Allan say that?

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Bahahahaaaaa!!!

Maria, your sig had me gaffawing loudly. When did Allan say that?

In this very thread.

[Skadison]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

[quote]Skadison wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...





[/quote]

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[/quote]

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played it to the end because I know she dies at the end.

[/quote]

She never romanced my Dwarf, though. And she doesn`t allways die in the end. Depends on how you play it. You choices actually affects the ending of the game. A rather unusuall thing for an rpg to implement now adays.

[/quote]

You choose a dwarf hahaha!!!  She doesn't die??  You sure?

[/quote]

Unless I remember it completely wrong, she didn`t die in my game. Had to do with the influence points you have over your followers. Some dies, some betrays you. Stuff like that. Makes the endings abit different each time.

[/quote]

This is a bit OT what happens to her? Shes not in MOTB though is she?  Sorry about the dwarf comment.

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But you can, since not all zots are the same.

It's entirely one thing to say, "We're getting more money to add more network programmers" and entirely another to say, "If we fix the protagonist as human in this story, we can have more stuff that relies on his/her human-ness."  

And either of those is entirely different thing to say from "by choosing more X you have to give up on Y" which was the dominant theme of this discussion until last couple of pages; where X and Y were any two components of the game, without anyone making a caveat "well, with exception of multiplayer because multiplayer gets its own zots".

Or at least i didn't notice anyone making a specific mention of that.

As was pointed out as well, if I spend Zot X I'm not necessarily treading on anything Zot Y does.  Racial choice effects say... Zot C, which can be spent on things like narrative relevance, or cinematics, or animations, etc.  But it doesn't really have much to do with say, multiplayer.

[Rawgrim]

[quote]Skadison wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...

[quote]Skadison wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...





[/quote]

In NWN2 you couldn`t romance everyone no matter what race you are either. I belive Elanie wouldn`t go near you if you were a drow elf.

[/quote]

No Elaine stil trys to romance you.  I never played it to the end because I know she dies at the end.

[/quote]

She never romanced my Dwarf, though. And she doesn`t allways die in the end. Depends on how you play it. You choices actually affects the ending of the game. A rather unusuall thing for an rpg to implement now adays.

[/quote]

You choose a dwarf hahaha!!!  She doesn't die??  You sure?

[/quote]

Unless I remember it completely wrong, she didn`t die in my game. Had to do with the influence points you have over your followers. Some dies, some betrays you. Stuff like that. Makes the endings abit different each time.

[/quote]

This is a bit OT what happens to her? Shes not in MOTB though is she?  Sorry about the dwarf comment.

[/quote]

All new characters in MOTB. But your PC from the original campaign gets imported.

[upsettingshorts]

ianvillan wrote...

Well lets hope there is no internal metrics for DA:I or else they will say that 80% of players chose background 2 lets scrap all other backgrounds.

BioWare has said numerous times that while said metrics are a factor when considering the viability of racial choice, cutting them isn't the only response they could take.  Another response could be to ask why human was so popular, and if they could do more to improve the appeal of the other options.  Metrics are feedback, not a guide.

But the discussion was about how the forums aren't entirely representative of BioWare's customers, not to claim the metrics are the cause of everything.

ianvillan wrote...

Or maybe they are using DA2 metric and have worked out that the majority of players choose the rogue class so they are cutting the other classes and that most chose dual wield for the rogue so they will cut out the archery, and that the majority chose assassin as the spec so they are cutting the other specs.

Strawman, and/or slippery slope.  I can't tell.  

ianvillan wrote...

If the internal metrics are so important then they should use all metrics not just pick and choose which they use.

Neither they nor I claimed that they were.  Only that they are proof that when it comes to feedback the BSN is hardly representative of the customer base as a whole.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

tmp7704 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But you can, since not all zots are the same.

It's entirely one thing to say, "We're getting more money to add more network programmers" and entirely another to say, "If we fix the protagonist as human in this story, we can have more stuff that relies on his/her human-ness."  

And either of those is entirely different thing to say from "by choosing more X you have to give up on Y" which was the dominant theme of this discussion until last couple of pages; where X and Y were any two components of the game, without anyone making a caveat "well, with exception of multiplayer because multiplayer gets its own zots".

Or at least i didn't notice anyone making a specific mention of that.

Within the context of the discussion, most zots related to race and story are interchangeable. Within a greater context, some multiplayer assets can be appropriated for single player (barks, animations, maps, models), but not necessarily vice versa.

[Wulfram]

Keep race choices, scrap imports. Much better.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

As was pointed out as well, if I spend Zot X I'm not necessarily treading on anything Zot Y does.  Racial choice effects say... Zot C, which can be spent on things like narrative relevance, or cinematics, or animations, etc.  But it doesn't really have much to do with say, multiplayer.

Yes, and like i said this argument is being made now, in contrast to the simplified "zots are zots are zots" approach from earlier. Which is a change from earlier discussion.

We've just basically repeated our respective previous posts here. It... there doesn't seem to be a point in this.

edit: perhaps bringing in the multiplayer zots was a mistake. You've mentioned it as a counter to the "money are universal zot that can be used to allocate specific content type zots as one sees fit", but it's become sort of a red herring, as it's very specific and doesn't really affect rest of the argument/situation all that much.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:15 .

[Monica21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No, you don't understand.  The options would be the same.  But since your character's cultural perspective would be different, the reasons you would choose one option over another would be different.

That's enough difference for me.  That's all the difference I think we ever get - what makes one playthrough different from another is the PC's decision-making process.

Can you give me an example? I'm trying to think of a situation in which a Hawke would choose a different response based on race, but I can't.

Even if he chooses the same option, he could choose it for different reasons.

Which would lead to the same result.

A dwarf Hawke might be less inclined to fight the Carta because they're dwarves.  He might be less interested in the plight of elves (humans could credibly feel some sort of collective guilt about the treatment of elves, but dwarves would have no reason to).  He would certainly have a very different perspective in magic and mages when dealig with Fenris.

But the Carta attacks you, so you don't have much of a choice not to fight back. As for the elves, there are a lot of ways to RP elves. A CE Hawke could hate the Dalish, and an Elven Hawke could feel sympathy or disgust for Fenris. You can RP a race any way you want to for whatever reason you want, but for that RP to be meaningful it would have had to have different dialogue results unless you headcanon your way through the game.

[upsettingshorts]

Monica21 wrote...

Which would lead to the same result.

Sylvius doesn't care about that.

I mean, I get your point about reactivity but, barkin' up the wrong tree with him, heh.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Monica21 wrote...

Which would lead to the same result.

That's not the same result at all.  Then you have an entirely new an unique PC perspective on event.  Those events are exactly the same as events experienced by a human Hawke in the same circumstances, but how the PC perceives those events (and that perception informs all of the PC's future behaviour) is different.

But the Carta attacks you, so you don't have much of a choice not to fight back.

Yes, but having to fight back can make the PC sad (or angry, or whatever) in new and interesting ways.

[Monica21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Which would lead to the same result.

That's not the same result at all.  Then you have an entirely new an unique PC perspective on event.  Those events are exactly the same as events experienced by a human Hawke in the same circumstances, but how the PC perceives those events (and that perception informs all of the PC's future behaviour) is different.

But the Carta attacks you, so you don't have much of a choice not to fight back.

Yes, but having to fight back can make the PC sad (or angry, or whatever) in new and interesting ways.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Having to fight back doesn't make the protaganist sad because there's no in-game mechanism to say, "This makes me sad." It becomes player headcanon and nothing to do with the PC at all.

[Master Shiori]

Rawgrim wrote...

Arl Eamon gives your elf warden the title of Champion. The warden also becomes the champion of Thedas, after defeating the blight. So YES. Non humans can get titles. its not against the lore at all. Whats ridicilous is that you missed those parts. or deliberatly ignored them.

That's an annomaly. For one, you'e a Grey Warden, member of an organization that is effectively outside of the usual social norms and laws. People in DA:O don't care about your race, aside from an odd comment or two. What is important is the organization that you belong to or the people who you asociate with.

Not to mention that Grey Wardens are NOT supposed to have titles outside of their own order. DA:O Warden was a special case in that regard, since he/she could rise as high as a ruler of an entire nation.

Just because such an exception happened thanks to very specific set of circumstances doesn't mean it can easily be repeated or that it would even work in a completely different situation, which Hawke's story is.

That sort of special circumstance doesn't exist for Hawke. He/she would have been an ordinary citizen, unless you completely rewrite the story into something else, but then you may as well make a completely different game.

[Maria Caliban]

Monica21 wrote...

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Having to fight back doesn't make the protaganist sad because there's no in-game mechanism to say, "This makes me sad." It becomes player headcanon and nothing to do with the PC at all.

The mental life of a protagonist in an RPG is nothing more than the player's head cannon. Otherwise, it's not an RPG.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Vandicus]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...




[/quote]

The comment was directed to Rawgrim, who questioned whether I had played the games and tried to imply irrelevance as a result[he does that quite a bit](please read what I say in its entirety before you post, and consider them in context). I said I have not played GW2.

Game that is reactive to race/class !=simple reskin and versimilitude breaking nonreactions

The setting of Thedas is also dramatically different to the setting of the D&D verses mentioned there. Interracial conflict is huge in Thedas. Glossing it over can be immersion breaking. Addressing it requires actual content, which is quite different from how they're addressed in those games(excepting GW2 which has reactive content for classes).

[/quote]

I said that because you said BG2 didn`t acknowledge your race, gender or class (pretty much). meaning you can`t have played the game since its impossible to miss all the time its being refferenced to in the game.

Really? the Forgotten Realms don`t have huge interracial conflicts? Drow elves vs elves? Dwarves vs orcs.? Its also reffered to ALOT in d&d games as well. You even have huge quests about it. Icewind Dale 2 is BASED on it. The entire plot of the game.

[/quote]

Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.

Modifié par Vandicus, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:36 .