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[Rawgrim]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Fereldan is not "The World of Thedas". It is one country in the World of Thedas, and known for being relatively benign towards elves and dwarves by the world's standards. Never in Orlais for instance, and rather unlikely in Kirkwall I'd surmrise.

Ever wonder why we never hear about an elven or dwarven noble in Kirkwall, or a previous elven or dwarven Champion? 

I realize that an elven or dwarven Hawke wasn't possible because of the time restraint in making the game, but I don't see why an elven or dwarven Hawke wouldn't be made "Champion of Kirkwall" if he (or she) defeated the Arishok and rescued the city from the Qunari. It's not as though there is a precedent for an apostate to become the Champion, after all.

aparantly it makes more sense that a known Blood Mage gets the title, instead of someone from a differenc race...

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...





Nope. Never wondered about that either. Doesn`t mean its impossible for it to never be one, or that it never has been one there. I never heard of a Riviani knight either. Does that mean the place has never had a knight?

It's impossible for an elf or a dwarf to gain a noble status in Andrastian society, unless there are special conditions (the said elf being a GW and the Warden Commander in a nation where the Wardens hold lands, and the WC is a lord). You're understimating racism in the Andrastian society.

[upsettingshorts]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Is MP in  non shooter games that popular, or someone decided if it is popular in a kind of game then it´ll also work
in any other?

Did you miss the part where Allan explained how they have to justify the argument that the addition of multiplayer will bring in more revenue?

If I'm a publisher, and I'm not convinced by the argument, why the hell would I give said developer millions of dollars to implement a feature that I don't think will return the revenues they're projecting?

Nerevar-as wrote...

I´m afraid if DA3 has any cut corners (and we already have race) and MP, there´s going to be quite a ****storm.

You see a cut corner, I see a compromise.  This happens on so many issues I've lost count. 

A legitimate cut corner would be the repeated environments in DA2. 

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Nope. Never wondered about that either. Doesn`t mean its impossible for it to never be one, or that it never has been one there. I never heard of a Riviani knight either. Does that mean the place has never had a knight?

It's impossible for an elf or a dwarf to gain a noble status in Andrastian society, unless there are special conditions (the said elf being a GW and the Warden Commander in a nation where the Wardens hold lands, and the WC is a lord). You're understimating racism in the Andrastian society.

Ferelden is also an Andrastian society. Your point?

[Master Shiori]

Rawgrim wrote...


Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. 

Hawke gained the title as a human noble who defeated the Arishok.

An elf or a dwarf wouldn't receive more than a "thank you".

And like I said before, the situation with the Warden in DA:O was a unique case that resulted from a whole set of specific circumstances, which neither exist in DA2 nor can be replicated.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...
aparantly it makes more sense that a known Blood Mage gets the title, instead of someone from a differenc race...

The said Blood Mage isn't supposed to directly shown his blood magic abilities. But he is human. He could hide is magic abilities.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
aparantly it makes more sense that a known Blood Mage gets the title, instead of someone from a differenc race...

The said Blood Mage isn't supposed to directly shown his blood magic abilities. But he is human. He could hide is magic abilities.

i used it in the middle of the town square constantly. Even while sister Petrice was watching.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. it happened 2 times in DA:O, so based on that its a pretty safe bet to say it could, under the right circumstances, also happen in other parts of the world.

Because happening in Ferelden=happening everywhere in Thedas. Without considering that Wardens are considered by the fact that they're Wardens, and not by their race or social status.

Because its happening in Ferelden = its also possible that it CAN happen in other countries too. Too far fetched for you?

Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

That's not actually a logical argument, no.

@Lobsel

Kirkwall was ruled by Orlais for a very long time. Many of its noble families are of Orlesian descent. My premise(though whether it is accurate or not is unknown in this case, but I at least think its plausible) is that the Kirkwall attitude towards elves is similar to the Orlesian one. It should be easy to see why an elf noble or Champion would not work in Orlais from what we know of them.

Dwarves would require different rewrites, but we don't really know how the Kirkwallers would feel about a dwarven Champion. Hawke being a descendent of a native human Kirkwaller I think is a big point in his favor. I would believe that the nobility would be not accepting of a dwarven Champion, because the Champion is a position of high power and honor, above most nobles even, and something that I think would exceed their tolerance. There are other problems with a dwarf Hawke though.

[Rawgrim]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. 

Hawke gained the title as a human noble who defeated the Arishok.

An elf or a dwarf wouldn't receive more than a "thank you".

And like I said before, the situation with the Warden in DA:O was a unique case that resulted from a whole set of specific circumstances, which neither exist in DA2 nor can be replicated.

No he became the Champion of Kirkwall.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Nope. Never wondered about that either. Doesn`t mean its impossible for it to never be one, or that it never has been one there. I never heard of a Riviani knight either. Does that mean the place has never had a knight?

It's impossible for an elf or a dwarf to gain a noble status in Andrastian society, unless there are special conditions (the said elf being a GW and the Warden Commander in a nation where the Wardens hold lands, and the WC is a lord). You're understimating racism in the Andrastian society.

Ferelden is also an Andrastian society. Your point?

:huh:Are you completely ignoring the "unless there are special conditions" part of my post, and that I said in multiple posts that Wardens are not considered by their race?

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. it happened 2 times in DA:O, so based on that its a pretty safe bet to say it could, under the right circumstances, also happen in other parts of the world.

Because happening in Ferelden=happening everywhere in Thedas. Without considering that Wardens are considered by the fact that they're Wardens, and not by their race or social status.

Because its happening in Ferelden = its also possible that it CAN happen in other countries too. Too far fetched for you?

Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

That's not actually a logical argument, no.

@Lobsel

Kirkwall was ruled by Orlais for a very long time. Many of its noble families are of Orlesian descent. My premise(though whether it is accurate or not is unknown in this case, but I at least think its plausible) is that the Kirkwall attitude towards elves is similar to the Orlesian one. It should be easy to see why an elf noble or Champion would not work in Orlais from what we know of them.

Dwarves would require different rewrites, but we don't really know how the Kirkwallers would feel about a dwarven Champion. Hawke being a descendent of a native human Kirkwaller I think is a big point in his favor. I would believe that the nobility would be not accepting of a dwarven Champion, because the Champion is a position of high power and honor, above most nobles even, and something that I think would exceed their tolerance. There are other problems with a dwarf Hawke though.

according to Leliana, elves and dwarves are treated alot better in Orlais than in Ferelden. Of course she could be lying.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...



Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

Possibly. Or maybe the Champion title in Redcliffe works in a different way than the Champion titlte in the Free Marches. If the game or a book or whatever says that a dwarf or elf can became Champion, I wouldnt' care. The point is that we don't know if that's possible or not, and you can't conclude that it's possible only because it's possible in Ferelden.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:11 .

[99DP1982]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

To go on a small tangent:
This is why we can't just say "Well this feature shouldn't be very hard to implement" because frankly, there's always a lot of features that "shouldn't be very hard to implement."  Hundreds if not thousands of them.  So while you may see "This would only take a couple of days at the most!" for one particular feature, we see "Yeah, but the other hundreds of other things were in the same boat.  How do we choose which one to do!?"


So to anyone that says "You could still work the story around an elf and a dwarf if you wanted" I say you are absolutely right.  We could do it.  However, that doesn't make it easy to do and doesn't fully appreciate how much time it could take within the context of the story or a host of other types of influences that could play a part.  Eventually it comes to a point of "What are we willing to sacrifice in order to do it?"

I wonder what was sacrificed in order to incorporate MP.

That's where things become even muddier.  Something like multiplayer opens up additional potential revenue streams, so for some features it's possible to receive more funding than had that feature not been one put forth.  The budget for any project is going to be determined based upon the the amount of costs it will take to deliver the project by a time, based on the potential revenues we can expect to make.


So while coming up with our plan, we could have game X and lets say it has a budget of $10 million for some easy math.  We expect to make $20 million with this game.  Now, if we also want to do Feature Y in our project and (based on whatever data we have to make our case) we can show that it'll get us an extra $100 million in revenue, and we expect it to cost $20 million to implement, then the idea of allocating $30 million instead of $10 million (200% more budget) is almost a trivial one.

Now these numbers are pulled out of my rear end just to illustrate the situation, but I am hoping it shows that determining how time and money is allocated, and where it should go, is not a particularly simple thing to do.

Usually MP part pays for itself easily... The CORE is done with the SP part (engine, animations, coding, etc). What MP requires is the on-line component (stress testing of the network and servers) and some skill tweaking/balancing.

Taking ME3 as an example. Basically all of the elements were already with the core game (all the enemies, calss abilities, looks and animations etc.)

Multi requires constant use of resources (servers come to mind), but the potential revenue vs the cost is far better in this scenario than in purely SP experience.

The micro-transactions associtated with the MP client also make it a very tempting course of actions when you reuse a lot of most costly assets already. In case of ME you had re-used everything that was available in SP (maps, enemies, etc), DLCs started to add more seperate content, but at launch everything was re-used.

The problem with MP appears, where it shows influence on the SP experience... in ME3 the biggest flaws - impact on the game's outcome (War Asset's and War Readiness), lackluster N7 missions.. these are the biggest desing flaws from the gamer's perspective, where he can actually see the influence of the MP...

Now the other point is... how many of these work hours could have been moved to enhance the orignal SP experience and what would be a future trade off in terms of SP centred DLCs vs MP components and micro-transactions?

One thing is certain though... MP has way higher potential for high ROI than SP.

Modifié par 99DP1982, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:11 .

[deuce985]

On the budget talk - based on what Bioware has talked about or aim for, sounds like DA3 will have a much bigger budget than DA2 and possibly DAO. Maybe combined. Especially if MP is added. Sounds like a pretty grand scale project and bigger than anything they've done since SWTOR.

Makes me wonder if EA started foaming at the lips when they saw Skyrim's numbers and just handed Bioware a checkbook on budget.

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Nope. Never wondered about that either. Doesn`t mean its impossible for it to never be one, or that it never has been one there. I never heard of a Riviani knight either. Does that mean the place has never had a knight?

It's impossible for an elf or a dwarf to gain a noble status in Andrastian society, unless there are special conditions (the said elf being a GW and the Warden Commander in a nation where the Wardens hold lands, and the WC is a lord). You're understimating racism in the Andrastian society.

Ferelden is also an Andrastian society. Your point?

:huh:Are you completely ignoring the "unless there are special conditions" part of my post, and that I said in multiple posts that Wardens are not considered by their race?

I did reply to it. Being a warden was not the reason why the character got the champion title. He got it because he saved Redcliffe, the Arl, and the Arl`s son. Like...you know...as a thank you\\reward for doing something heroic. The Arl never mentions its because of the character being a warden. A Warden even owning land is a rather special case too. Meaning it should be even harder to get titles and such AS a warden. You can even decline the title BECAUSE you are a Warden.

[Maclimes]

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

[TheRealJayDee]

Human is usually the first class I play in a game with race selection, just like warrior is usually the first class. So technically I don't lose much by this. I do understand the disappointment and the fears that come with this decision. It might also be bad for replayability, based on how well they do their human only story. They didn't do well in DA2.

plnero wrote...

Are you talking about ME3 or Dragon Age? I'm pretty sure they didn't have to sacrifice much considering the maps were all recycled from the single player mode.

It sure feels like they recycled multiplayer maps for single player missions, but nevermind.

nedpepper wrote...

Skadison wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

No it isn't. I've played many a fantasy RPG without such a choice.

Really?  BG, BG2, NWN, NWN2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter, Guild Wars 2?  Are these some obscure role playing games?

Deus Ex.  Mass Effect.  Knights of the Old Republic.  Fallout.  Final Fantasy.  The Witcher.  More I'm forgetting.  Also not obscure.

Well, except for Witcher I wouldn't count any of these as a fantasy RPG, at least not in the classical sense.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...


according to Leliana, elves and dwarves are treated alot better in Orlais than in Ferelden. Of course she could be lying.

I've never gotten that particular dialogue with her. Maybe things have changed in Orlais. The elven perspectives we've gotten of it previously are... a lot less cheery. From what I'm given to understand they're basically a slave underclass. Not really so much info on the dwarves though.

[Nerevar-as]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. 

Hawke gained the title as a human noble who defeated the Arishok.

An elf or a dwarf wouldn't receive more than a "thank you".

And like I said before, the situation with the Warden in DA:O was a unique case that resulted from a whole set of specific circumstances, which neither exist in DA2 nor can be replicated.

Why not for a dwarf? The only racism I´ve seen towards surface dwarfs comes from the underground ones. And sorry, but if a blood mage can get to CoK, no way I´ll believe they wouldn´t accept an elf.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

Possibly. Or maybe the Champion title in Redcliffe works in a different way than the Champion titlte in the Free Marches. If the game or a book or whatever says that a dwarf or elf can became Champion, I wouldnt' care. The point is that we don't know if that's possible or not, and you can't conclude that it's possible only because it's possible in Ferelden.

Yes. That is possible. But Hawke got it for saving Kirkwall. Warden got it for saving Redcliffe. Pretty simmilar cases.

[LobselVith8]

Rawgrim wrote...

Because its happening in Ferelden = its also possible that it CAN happen in other countries too. Too far fetched for you?

Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden? 

I don't see why an Elven or Dwarven Hawke couldn't become Champion of Kirkwall. According to the codex entry "Mantle of the Champion", it reads:

"Champion: an honor unique to the Free Marches. Other terms of reverence suffer the stains of their holders, the lingering baggage of office and entitlement. But champion is not an appointment that can be sought. It cannot be owned or willed, and the process by which it is bestowed is not argued through policy or guile. It is earned with blood and sweat and leadership in times of great turmoil. Always worthy, as their deeds are of true importance, a champion is greeted not by debate, but by nods of reverence.

"The title was most recently granted in Tantervale, 8:82 Blessed, on the resolution of the bloody expansion of Nevarra. Their king, emboldened by the taking of Perendale and the quick yielding of Hasmal, thought the remainder of the Free Marches as easy claim. He who became the Champion. Cade Arvale of Rivain, did what Orlais had not: He stopped a nation in its tracks. There was blood and barter, but Tantervale is still free against all odds.

"There is the contradiction of the honor. Champion is not itself a sign of approval. He or she can be respected or feared, their coming dreaded as much as desired. All that is common is that they have an effect and lives are changed.

"Kirkwall now adds to the history of the title, a first for the city, on this 9:34 Dragon. The Qunari are repelled by the means respected or reviled, and it remains to be seen what follows for this Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall.

"—From The Champion: History, Ancient and Current, excerpted by Philliam, a Bard!"

Hypothetically speaking, I don't see why Hawke would need to be human to earn the title of Champion, when he can receive the title even as an illegal mage living outside Chantry control.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Icinix]

deuce985 wrote...

On the budget talk - based on what Bioware has talked about or aim for, sounds like DA3 will have a much bigger budget than DA2 and possibly DAO. Maybe combined. Especially if MP is added. Sounds like a pretty grand scale project and bigger than anything they've done since SWTOR.

Makes me wonder if EA started foaming at the lips when they saw Skyrim's numbers and just handed Bioware a checkbook on budget.

I wouldn't be surprised if something to this affect kind of happened. When an open world single player game gets the kind of reviews and sales numbers that Skyrim got - I like to think a number of suits in various companies sat up and took note.

I also would be most curious to see the numbers in ToR playing just the single player side of things.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


according to Leliana, elves and dwarves are treated alot better in Orlais than in Ferelden. Of course she could be lying.

I've never gotten that particular dialogue with her. Maybe things have changed in Orlais. The elven perspectives we've gotten of it previously are... a lot less cheery. From what I'm given to understand they're basically a slave underclass. Not really so much info on the dwarves though.

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

[Vandicus]

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

Its a tangent based on whether or not an elven or dwarven Hawke was feasible in DA2. Without an extraordinary jump in resources and time required, as well as extensive extra writing, I don't see it as possible.

[Master Shiori]

Rawgrim wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. 

Hawke gained the title as a human noble who defeated the Arishok.

An elf or a dwarf wouldn't receive more than a "thank you".

And like I said before, the situation with the Warden in DA:O was a unique case that resulted from a whole set of specific circumstances, which neither exist in DA2 nor can be replicated.

No he became the Champion of Kirkwall.

*facepalm*

A human noble was proclaimed Champion of Kirkwall. 

That's the whole point. 

Human   Noble