3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Si-Shen]

Hmmm this is dissapointing news, humans are the most boring of races in fantasy worlds, best be worth the sacrific to get stuck with a human-only choice again.

[upsettingshorts]

Icinix wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if something to this affect kind of happened. When an open world single player game gets the kind of reviews and sales numbers that Skyrim got - I like to think a number of suits in various companies sat up and took note.

Yeah, they probably said, "How much more money could this still be making us if it was multiplayer?"

Oh.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[LadyMalstroem]

The way people talk, they make it sound like customization is the holy grail of RPGs and no game will ever be good unless it has more customization than there ever was in a game.

Don't get me wrong, I think customization is a pretty important part of the RPG genre, but customization comes in many forms. I would like more of it in DA3, but just because there is no racial choice doesn't mean choice can't pop up in other areas. There's already been talk about customization when it comes to how companions look, the ability to control your own castle, different backgroud options for your character - all of it music to my ears, and there's still so much we haven't heard yet. 

I don't think the lack of racial choice was a flaw in DA2 (which did have several flaws that I hope will be addressed this time around, believe me), and I don't expect it to be one in DA3. I understand that many people judge a game by how much the player can control, and that's fine, that's their preference. Just don't forget to consider the other aspects of the game when you judge its quality. No racial choice does not necessarily equal a bad game. After all, there are many great RPGs out there that has way less customization of the player character than Dragon Age has.

It's possible that I will eat my words when DA3 comes out, convinced that the lack of racial choice somehow made it horrible, but until then I'll go ahead and say that it doesn't bother me at all.

[Shadow Fox]

[quote]Vandicus wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...




[/quote]

The comment was directed to Rawgrim, who questioned whether I had played the games and tried to imply irrelevance as a result[he does that quite a bit](please read what I say in its entirety before you post, and consider them in context). I said I have not played GW2.

Game that is reactive to race/class !=simple reskin and versimilitude breaking nonreactions

The setting of Thedas is also dramatically different to the setting of the D&D verses mentioned there. Interracial conflict is huge in Thedas. Glossing it over can be immersion breaking. Addressing it requires actual content, which is quite different from how they're addressed in those games(excepting GW2 which has reactive content for classes).

[/quote]

I said that because you said BG2 didn`t acknowledge your race, gender or class (pretty much). meaning you can`t have played the game since its impossible to miss all the time its being refferenced to in the game.

Really? the Forgotten Realms don`t have huge interracial conflicts? Drow elves vs elves? Dwarves vs orcs.? Its also reffered to ALOT in d&d games as well. You even have huge quests about it. Icewind Dale 2 is BASED on it. The entire plot of the game.

[/quote]

Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.
[/quote] Half Orcs are considered to be inherently savage,cruel and evil as are drow in D&D Half Elves also face discrimination of a sort based on they're race mostly because elves are alien to the populance at large thus misconceptions are rampant.

The racial conflict hardly comes up in Origins as well for the PC so I don't see how Thedas's racial conflict is larger than D&D's if we're going by how the world reacts to your character.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Rawgrim]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


Hawke got the title when he defeated the qun`ari threat. Elves and Dwarves can gain titles from doing simmilar things in the world of Thedas. 

Hawke gained the title as a human noble who defeated the Arishok.

An elf or a dwarf wouldn't receive more than a "thank you".

And like I said before, the situation with the Warden in DA:O was a unique case that resulted from a whole set of specific circumstances, which neither exist in DA2 nor can be replicated.

No he became the Champion of Kirkwall.

*facepalm*

A human noble was proclaimed Champion of Kirkwall. 

That's the whole point. 

Human   Noble

He HAPPENED to be a human noble. Its not stated anywhere that he got it BECAUSE he was noble. If a baker had defeated the Arishok and saved the entire city, would that mean he wouldn`t have gotten the Champion title?

[Maclimes]

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

Its a tangent based on whether or not an elven or dwarven Hawke was feasible in DA2. Without an extraordinary jump in resources and time required, as well as extensive extra writing, I don't see it as possible.

Naturally. But you can forgo all this tangental weirdness and just point to: "Dwarves can't be mages".

Boom. Suddenly, if you play a dwarf, you can't be a mage, Hawke's dad can't be a mage, and Hawke's sister can't be a mage. A huge chunk of the plot and character motivation goes away, and would require, as you say, and extraordinary jump in resources and writing to fix it.

And if you say, "Well, just human and elf then"...

Look, I can deal with human-only. However, if you add elves, but not dwarves ... well, someone's gonna get hurt. I don't know who, when, or by whom. But it won't be pretty.

[Icinix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Icinix wrote...

 I like to think a number of suits in various companies sat up and took note.

Yeah, they probably said, "How much more money could this still be making us if it was multiplayer?"

Oh.

Indeed - I do believe it was in development before Skyrim was out though - although as a die hard anti Multiplayer and Single Player Elitist - even I'm watching Elder Scrolls online with a tad bit of interest.

[Vandicus]

Maclimes wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

Its a tangent based on whether or not an elven or dwarven Hawke was feasible in DA2. Without an extraordinary jump in resources and time required, as well as extensive extra writing, I don't see it as possible.

Naturally. But you can forgo all this tangental weirdness and just point to: "Dwarves can't be mages".

Boom. Suddenly, if you play a dwarf, you can't be a mage, Hawke's dad can't be a mage, and Hawke's sister can't be a mage. A huge chunk of the plot and character motivation goes away, and would require, as you say, and extraordinary jump in resources and writing to fix it.

And if you say, "Well, just human and elf then"...

Look, I can deal with human-only. However, if you add elves, but not dwarves ... well, someone's gonna get hurt. I don't know who, when, or by whom. But it won't be pretty.

It was already brought up. And then dismissed as not a major obstacle. I'm not actually sure why I'm still trying to explain it.

[Scott Sion]

Icinix wrote...

Quite frankly I won't be happy until we can play through the entire game as a Marbari with the entire voiced dialogue as woofing.

I see the potential in this.

[Icinix]

LadyMalstroem wrote...

The way people talk, they make it sound like customization is the holy grail of RPGs and no game will ever be good unless it has more customization than there ever was in a game.

Don't get me wrong, I think customization is a pretty important part of the RPG genre, but customization comes in many forms. I would like more of it in DA3, but just because there is no racial choice doesn't mean choice can't pop up in other areas. There's already been talk about customization when it comes to how companions look, the ability to control your own castle, different backgroud options for your character - all of it music to my ears, and there's still so much we haven't heard yet. 

I don't think the lack of racial choice was a flaw in DA2 (which did have several flaws that I hope will be addressed this time around, believe me), and I don't expect it to be one in DA3. I understand that many people judge a game by how much the player can control, and that's fine, that's their preference. Just don't forget to consider the other aspects of the game when you judge its quality. No racial choice does not necessarily equal a bad game. After all, there are many great RPGs out there that has way less customization of the player character than Dragon Age has.

It's possible that I will eat my words when DA3 comes out, convinced that the lack of racial choice somehow made it horrible, but until then I'll go ahead and say that it doesn't bother me at all.

It depends on so many factors I fact.

For example, a few years ago I would have seriously bemoaned the absent of player customisation - but after The Witcher - its taken a back seat if the player choice / consequence mechanic is really good.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

Its a tangent based on whether or not an elven or dwarven Hawke was feasible in DA2. Without an extraordinary jump in resources and time required, as well as extensive extra writing, I don't see it as possible.

Naturally. But you can forgo all this tangental weirdness and just point to: "Dwarves can't be mages".

Boom. Suddenly, if you play a dwarf, you can't be a mage, Hawke's dad can't be a mage, and Hawke's sister can't be a mage. A huge chunk of the plot and character motivation goes away, and would require, as you say, and extraordinary jump in resources and writing to fix it.

And if you say, "Well, just human and elf then"...

Look, I can deal with human-only. However, if you add elves, but not dwarves ... well, someone's gonna get hurt. I don't know who, when, or by whom. But it won't be pretty.

It was already brought up. And then dismissed as not a major obstacle. I'm not actually sure why I'm still trying to explain it.

It got explained in detail WHY it doesn`t have to be a major obstacle. You dismissed that bit.

[Icinix]

plnero wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Quite frankly I won't be happy until we can play through the entire game as a Marbari with the entire voiced dialogue as woofing.

I see the potential in this.

I know right - you could have voice actor greats pronouncing 'woof' in various ways. It would be glorious.

You could use a special smell ability to find hidden treasure and dig random holes instead of having to look in crates. The possibilities on the already overused mechanics are limitless.

[deuce985]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if something to this affect kind of happened. When an open world single player game gets the kind of reviews and sales numbers that Skyrim got - I like to think a number of suits in various companies sat up and took note.

Yeah, they probably said, "How much more money could this still be making us if it was multiplayer?"

Oh.

Man, I don't even want to think about that game right now...

Bethesda has horrible horrible quality control in their games. I love their games to death but jesus man, can we get some polish? I feel sorry for PS3 players. Their game was literally unplayable for months once their save files hit about 8mbs. They had a major memory issue in their engine. And PS3 players still haven't got the DLC yet because of this "issue" and Bethesda is trying to sort it out. They fixed it in the core game but not the DLC.

With that being said, I'd have to say personally, Skyrim is the least buggiest Bethesda game I've played. Granted, it was on PC but their quality control gets better with every game, IMO. I really don't like their philosophy of piling endless content on you without polishing anything. I can't imagine the bugs the MMO will have...

Only game I can think with a worse philosophy - Two Worlds 2. I don't think that game polished ANYTHING. It's like some guy just went to a brainstorm board and threw all his ideas into the game...

Modifié par deuce985, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand this weird tangent about champions/titles/nobility and it's relation to the human-only protagonist discussion.

Its a tangent based on whether or not an elven or dwarven Hawke was feasible in DA2. Without an extraordinary jump in resources and time required, as well as extensive extra writing, I don't see it as possible.

Naturally. But you can forgo all this tangental weirdness and just point to: "Dwarves can't be mages".

Boom. Suddenly, if you play a dwarf, you can't be a mage, Hawke's dad can't be a mage, and Hawke's sister can't be a mage. A huge chunk of the plot and character motivation goes away, and would require, as you say, and extraordinary jump in resources and writing to fix it.

And if you say, "Well, just human and elf then"...

Look, I can deal with human-only. However, if you add elves, but not dwarves ... well, someone's gonna get hurt. I don't know who, when, or by whom. But it won't be pretty.

It was already brought up. And then dismissed as not a major obstacle. I'm not actually sure why I'm still trying to explain it.

It got explained in detail WHY it doesn`t have to be a major obstacle. You dismissed that bit.

You came up with a theoretical rewrite. I'm not saying such a rewrite is impossible, I've been saying that a rewrite of that extent is unfeasible. Additionally, I doubt the writers would be willing to simply sideline the sibling character and Hawke family.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...





I did reply to it. Being a warden was not the reason why the character got the champion title. He got it because he saved Redcliffe, the Arl, and the Arl`s son. Like...you know...as a thank youreward for doing something heroic. The Arl never mentions its because of the character being a warden. A Warden even owning land is a rather special case too. Meaning it should be even harder to get titles and such AS a warden. You can even decline the title BECAUSE you are a Warden.

I saw it now, I apologize. I missed it.
Even in it's possible for a common dwarf to be champion in Redcliffe, the noble status is a completely different status. Yeah, Wardens don't in generally hold land. In the case they had lands, the race of the WC held no value.
Though we don't know if a WC is considered "noble" even if it hold lands. If a WC of Ferelden which is the arle of Amaranthine as children, they're not going to became arle. They're not noble.
There were a case of a elven bann, if you choose the boon with a CE Origin, but I don't know if the boon was retconneted like the Magi and Dalish boons. Which doesn't mean that it's possible in Kirkwall.
What I want to point out is that Ferelden and Kirkwall are different places. They have different laws, and we don't know if there are restriction for the Champion title. Even if in exeptional case the noble status can be given to a dwarf or elf, of could it work in DA2? The only think that Hawke did that could lead him to have a noble status is defeating the qunari. But at this point he was already noble. They should've change DA2's Act 1 to make the story for a dwarf or elf be on par a human Hawke.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Nerevar-as]

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.
[/quote]Half Orcs are considered to be inherently savage,cruel and evil as are drow in D&D Half Elves also face discrimination of a sort based on they're race mostly because elves are alien to the populance at large thus misconceptions are rampant.

The racial conflict hardly comes up in Origins as well for the PC so I don't see how Thedas's racial conflict is larger than D&D's.

[/quote]

Drows and orcs and other CE races don´t really count, as they fill a similar niche to darkspawn in DA. There are wars, but not the kind of racial conflict there´s on Thedas or Geralt´s world. It´s an interesting dinamic to explore, and it´s DA loss that they´ve chosen not to allow us to see through the eyes of those other races. At least in TW Geralt (and people without tact or common sense) often reminds us he´s also an outsider.

[General Malor]

I'm pretty bothered by not being able to be an Elf again. I love the elvish race of Dragon Age and being blocked from them for two games is just a disappointment. In the first game they were cool, in the second game they looked freaky and bad, plainly put. I hope at least they'll be better handled in this game than in Dragon Age 2.

I'll still play the game, still buy, probably still love it too, just really disappointed right now. Oh well.

[Cutlass Jack]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


according to Leliana, elves and dwarves are treated alot better in Orlais than in Ferelden. Of course she could be lying.

I've never gotten that particular dialogue with her. Maybe things have changed in Orlais. The elven perspectives we've gotten of it previously are... a lot less cheery. From what I'm given to understand they're basically a slave underclass. Not really so much info on the dwarves though.

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

My city elf was pretty offended by that conversation. Leliana's understanding of elves was not dissimilar to a certain presidential hopeful's understanding of the middle class. They treat them better, but they still treat them like servants.

[LobselVith8]

Rawgrim wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I realize that an elven or dwarven Hawke wasn't possible because of the time restraint in making the game, but I don't see why an elven or dwarven Hawke wouldn't be made "Champion of Kirkwall" if he (or she) defeated the Arishok and rescued the city from the Qunari. It's not as though there is a precedent for an apostate to become the Champion, after all. 

aparantly it makes more sense that a known Blood Mage gets the title, instead of someone from a differenc race...

It's not even a title in the same way Hawke would be "Lord Amell" if he accepted the Viscount's recognition of him as the Amell heir; Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall because he stopped the Qunari invasion. You can be a hero or a villain, and still become Champion.

Technically speaking, an Elven or Dwarven protagonist could have done pretty much the same thing Hawke did throughout the narrative: lived in Lothering, escaped the darkspawn horde, lost a family member, traveled to the nearby city-state to escape the Blight, become a member of the mercenaries or the smugglers to earn enough money to enter the city, made a name for himself while working for the respective group, become allies with Varric, become wealthy from the Deep Roads expedition, earned the notice of the Viscount via the Arishok's demand for the protagonist, and the protagonist can defeat the Arishok.

Aside from the plot of the Amell mansion, it could be roughly the same path for the Elven or Dwarven protagonist. I don't see what required Hawke to be human, aside from the constraints of the budget and the time it took to make the game. From a narrative standpoint, Hawke could have been Elven or Dwarven, and earned the right to be the Champion of Kirkwall. The plot certainly accomodated an apostate Hawke to become Champion, despite the fact that it was illegal for Hawke to live outside the Circle Tower.

[Master Shiori]

Rawgrim wrote...

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

But they're still servants. They weren' elevated above that position, simply given perks to enjoy.

Hipotheticaly, an elf in Kirkwall could take up a merchant's trade and become reasonably wealthy as a result. He could afford a better house and even servants of his own. But he wouldn't be accepted outside of the Alienage. As the codex on City Elves states, those who leave the Alienage are often forced back due to hatred and jealousy they receive from humans. It's not uncommon for poor humans to burn down a house of an elf who is better off then they are.

And even if that wasn't the case, a wealthy elf would never be accepted into high society based purely on his wealth, when the said society is based on ones ancestry and tradition. Now take into account the fact that city officials are selected from this society and you can see what the chances of a non human attaining a position of power in Kirkwall are. 

Non existent.

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





I did reply to it. Being a warden was not the reason why the character got the champion title. He got it because he saved Redcliffe, the Arl, and the Arl`s son. Like...you know...as a thank youreward for doing something heroic. The Arl never mentions its because of the character being a warden. A Warden even owning land is a rather special case too. Meaning it should be even harder to get titles and such AS a warden. You can even decline the title BECAUSE you are a Warden.

I saw it now, I apologize. I missed it.
Even in it's possible for a common dwarf to be champion in Redcliffe, the noble status is a completely different status. Yeah, Wardens don't in generally hold land. In the case they had lands, the race of the WC held no value.
Though we don't know if a WC is considered "noble" even if it hold lands. If a WC of Ferelden which is the arle of Amaranthine as children, they're not going to became arle. They're not noble.
There were a case of a elven bann, if you choose the boon with a CE Origin, but I don't know if the boon was retconneted like the Magi and Dalish boons. Which doesn't mean that it's possible in Kirkwall.
What I want to point out is that Ferelden and Kirkwall are different places. They have different laws, and we don't know if there are restriction for the Champion title. Even if in exeptional case the noble status can be given to a dwarf or elf, of could it work in DA2? The only think that Hawke did that could lead him to have a noble status is defeating the qunari. But at this point he was already noble. They should've change DA2's Act 1 to make the story for a dwarf or elf be on par a human Hawke.

Well its not neccerairy the Noble title I am going for here. Its the champion title. Wich is pretty much a stamp of heroism. One could still gain land and cash in adition to this, without actually getting a Nobility title.

[Shadow Fox]

LadyMalstroem wrote...

The way people talk, they make it sound like customization is the holy grail of RPGs and no game will ever be good unless it has more customization than there ever was in a game.

Don't get me wrong, I think customization is a pretty important part of the RPG genre, but customization comes in many forms. I would like more of it in DA3, but just because there is no racial choice doesn't mean choice can't pop up in other areas. There's already been talk about customization when it comes to how companions look, the ability to control your own castle, different backgroud options for your character - all of it music to my ears, and there's still so much we haven't heard yet.

I don't think the lack of racial choice was a flaw in DA2 (which did have several flaws that I hope will be addressed this time around, believe me), and I don't expect it to be one in DA3. I understand that many people judge a game by how much the player can control, and that's fine, that's their preference. Just don't forget to consider the other aspects of the game when you judge its quality. No racial choice does not necessarily equal a bad game. After all, there are many great RPGs out there that has way less customization of the player character than Dragon Age has.

It's possible that I will eat my words when DA3 comes out, convinced that the lack of racial choice somehow made it horrible, but until then I'll go ahead and say that it doesn't bother me at all.

That's nice but we have no proof any of that's going to be in the game are if what they say means what we think it means*remembers how Mass Effect  3 was said to have several different endings*

See that's what drew me to the likes of Origins and Oblivion the shear amount of ways you could customize your character if I want a  good cinematic rpg with limited customization that's what I have Tales and Final Fantasy for.

[deuce985]

I'd have to agree playing human in a fantasy game is rather boring.

Especially when a fantasy game makes the humans very much like our own world in culture and politics. Don't we play enough games like this and experience/read enough about it in RL?

[Scott Sion]

mousestalker wrote...

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...
I wonder what was sacrificed in order to incorporate MP in DAIII.

I heard they sacrificed three whole chickens and a six pack of beer to Fen'Harel for permission.

Three whole chickens is one thing but a six pack of beer? Bioware definitely got the short end of the stick in this deal. Unless it was cheap beer, no one wins when cheep beer gets involved.

Modifié par plnero, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Rawgrim]

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

But they're still servants. They weren' elevated above that position, simply given perks to enjoy.

Hipotheticaly, an elf in Kirkwall could take up a merchant's trade and become reasonably wealthy as a result. He could afford a better house and even servants of his own. But he wouldn't be accepted outside of the Alienage. As the codex on City Elves states, those who leave the Alienage are often forced back due to hatred and jealousy they receive from humans. It's not uncommon for poor humans to burn down a house of an elf who is better off then they are.

And even if that wasn't the case, a wealthy elf would never be accepted into high society based purely on his wealth, when the said society is based on ones ancestry and tradition. Now take into account the fact that city officials are selected from this society and you can see what the chances of a non human attaining a position of power in Kirkwall are. 

Non existent.

We are talking about 2 different things here. Its not about an elf or a dwarf becoming nobility. its about the Champion title. Wich is pretty much a Purple Heart medal. Something like that. There is no reason why that can`t be given to an elf who saves the entire city. Making him a noble, however, is a different matter. I agree. But you don`t have to be Noble, in order to become a Champion.