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[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

Possibly. Or maybe the Champion title in Redcliffe works in a different way than the Champion titlte in the Free Marches. If the game or a book or whatever says that a dwarf or elf can became Champion, I wouldnt' care. The point is that we don't know if that's possible or not, and you can't conclude that it's possible only because it's possible in Ferelden.

Yes. That is possible. But Hawke got it for saving Kirkwall. Warden got it for saving Redcliffe. Pretty simmilar cases.

They're two different places, and two different titles. The method to acquire it might be the only similar thing here.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

But they're still servants. They weren' elevated above that position, simply given perks to enjoy.

Hipotheticaly, an elf in Kirkwall could take up a merchant's trade and become reasonably wealthy as a result. He could afford a better house and even servants of his own. But he wouldn't be accepted outside of the Alienage. As the codex on City Elves states, those who leave the Alienage are often forced back due to hatred and jealousy they receive from humans. It's not uncommon for poor humans to burn down a house of an elf who is better off then they are.

And even if that wasn't the case, a wealthy elf would never be accepted into high society based purely on his wealth, when the said society is based on ones ancestry and tradition. Now take into account the fact that city officials are selected from this society and you can see what the chances of a non human attaining a position of power in Kirkwall are. 

Non existent.

We are talking about 2 different things here. Its not about an elf or a dwarf becoming nobility. its about the Champion title. Wich is pretty much a Purple Heart medal. Something like that. There is no reason why that can`t be given to an elf who saves the entire city. Making him a noble, however, is a different matter. I agree. But you don`t have to be Noble, in order to become a Champion.

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

[Wulfram]

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

[sylvanaerie]

While I love elves (and Bioware's take on elves), and my preferred Warden is a Surana, I played DA2 as a human and enjoyed it. It was a flawed game (as all things human made are flawed), but it was a great deal of fun, and being a human wasn't one of the flaws in it (at least where I am concerned). I'm much more interested in the story being told than what race I'm playing, and I usually play humans in my fantasy RPGs if given a racial option.

It's not a deal breaker for me to be a human protagonist again. I'm willing to adopt a 'wait and see' to determine if the story and the direction Bioware is taking is worth going along for the ride again. I certainly felt DA2 was money well spent, I have faith Bioware will not disappoint me with DA3 either.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Play the game again then. Leliana says it flat out that elves arn`t slaves at all. They are sought after servants, who are treated very very well. I belive you have to be a dalish or a city elf in order to get that conversation bit, though.

But they're still servants. They weren' elevated above that position, simply given perks to enjoy.

Hipotheticaly, an elf in Kirkwall could take up a merchant's trade and become reasonably wealthy as a result. He could afford a better house and even servants of his own. But he wouldn't be accepted outside of the Alienage. As the codex on City Elves states, those who leave the Alienage are often forced back due to hatred and jealousy they receive from humans. It's not uncommon for poor humans to burn down a house of an elf who is better off then they are.

And even if that wasn't the case, a wealthy elf would never be accepted into high society based purely on his wealth, when the said society is based on ones ancestry and tradition. Now take into account the fact that city officials are selected from this society and you can see what the chances of a non human attaining a position of power in Kirkwall are. 

Non existent.

We are talking about 2 different things here. Its not about an elf or a dwarf becoming nobility. its about the Champion title. Wich is pretty much a Purple Heart medal. Something like that. There is no reason why that can`t be given to an elf who saves the entire city. Making him a noble, however, is a different matter. I agree. But you don`t have to be Noble, in order to become a Champion.

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

Don`t have to be a nobleman in order to get the title. Are you saying that if a dwarf saved Kirkwal, and defeated all the enemies, he would only get a pat on the back and some money? Even with the city looking up to him as a savior?

[deuce985]

In theory all this customization sounds great. It really just depends on how much Bioware gives us. Take the companion customization for instance, that's all well and good. They're basically taking what I loved from both DAO/DA2 and putting them together. Keeping iconic looks without losing customization. That seems like something that costs huge resources to do though. I mean, visually modeling each armor piece to look unique on every character?? That's a tall task.

If my companions will only have a few different visuals on their armor, I'd rather racial options and get rid of iconic looks. However, if we have a ton of variety in weapon/armor visuals for everyone, I think that's a fair compromise.

A major problem in DA2 was it didn't involve the DA world. EVERY DA game should be about the DA world. DA2 was too isolated around one city. That's boring and bland. I'd really get concerned if Bioware started showing all human companions in DA3.

Modifié par deuce985, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Are you saying that if my dwarf hadn`t been a warden, Arl Eamon wouldn`t have named him Champion of Redcliffe after saving Redcliffe, himself, and his son? The deciding factor was the fact that he just happened to be a warden?

Possibly. Or maybe the Champion title in Redcliffe works in a different way than the Champion titlte in the Free Marches. If the game or a book or whatever says that a dwarf or elf can became Champion, I wouldnt' care. The point is that we don't know if that's possible or not, and you can't conclude that it's possible only because it's possible in Ferelden.

Yes. That is possible. But Hawke got it for saving Kirkwall. Warden got it for saving Redcliffe. Pretty simmilar cases.

They're two different places, and two different titles. The method to acquire it might be the only similar thing here.

And yet the titles WERE given for very very similar acts.

[Vandicus]

Wulfram wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

Fereldan isn't Kirkwall. The title of Champion does exceed those titles though if we're talking about comparative power. Though, Rawgrim himself concedes that nobility is unlikely in Kirkwall for dwarves or elves.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

Fereldan isn't Kirkwall. The title of Champion does exceed those titles though if we're talking about comparative power. Though, Rawgrim himself concedes that nobility is unlikely in Kirkwall for dwarves or elves.

Extremely unlikely, yes. But not too unlikely if it happens as a result of a Champion title.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...



Don`t have to be a nobleman in order to get the title. Are you saying that if a dwarf saved Kirkwal, and defeated all the enemies, he would only get a pat on the back and some money? Even with the city looking up to him as a savior?

That's what America gave Lafayette no? The American born George Washington becomes President(of the new American confederacy), the French hero gets a pat on the back.

[Shadow Fox]

[quote]Nerevar-as wrote...

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.
[/quote]Half Orcs are considered to be inherently savage,cruel and evil as are drow in D&D Half Elves also face discrimination of a sort based on they're race mostly because elves are alien to the populance at large thus misconceptions are rampant.

The racial conflict hardly comes up in Origins as well for the PC so I don't see how Thedas's racial conflict is larger than D&D's.

[/quote]

Drows and orcs and other CE races don´t really count, as they fill a similar niche to darkspawn in DA. There are wars, but not the kind of racial conflict there´s on Thedas or Geralt´s world. It´s an interesting dinamic to explore, and it´s DA loss that they´ve chosen not to allow us to see through the eyes of those other races. At least in TW Geralt (and people without tact or common sense) often reminds us he´s also an outsider.

[/quote]You are aware you can be a good Drow in D&D right ? plus there's Drizzt whose chaotic good despite growing up in the hellhole that is the Undercity And Half Orcs are largley Chaotic aligned but they are not evil by defaualt They are hated because they have an Orc parent the fact that most most Half orcs are born out of rape makes it even more tragic for them

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...





Well its not neccerairy the Noble title I am going for here. Its the champion title. Wich is pretty much a stamp of heroism. One could still gain land and cash in adition to this, without actually getting a Nobility title.

It's not, since you could invoke fears in the common people, which means you can be a villain in theory. The codex is more clear than me. But it's not important for the discussion.
I was referring to the fact that regaining the noble status is one of the main elements of Act 1, an that it was one of the reason Dumar was interested in you and gave you the job to talk with the Arishok. I don't know if Dumar would've given you the role without the noble status. There are way to make it works with an elf or a dwarf, but it has to change the story a bit. That of course if the Champion title could be give to an elf or dwarf, which we have no confirmation.
At the end, I don't care much about this discussion because I wanted race options in DA2. I just think DA2 story works better with a human Hawke, and that it'd have required changes for an elf or dwarf.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Don`t have to be a nobleman in order to get the title. Are you saying that if a dwarf saved Kirkwal, and defeated all the enemies, he would only get a pat on the back and some money? Even with the city looking up to him as a savior?

That's what America gave Lafayette no? The American born George Washington becomes President(of the new American confederacy), the French hero gets a pat on the back.

The US has nobility and royalty now? The english, spanish, french and so on, have all given nobility titles to people who have done something heroic for their country.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

@Lobsel

Kirkwall was ruled by Orlais for a very long time. Many of its noble families are of Orlesian descent. My premise(though whether it is accurate or not is unknown in this case, but I at least think its plausible) is that the Kirkwall attitude towards elves is similar to the Orlesian one. It should be easy to see why an elf noble or Champion would not work in Orlais from what we know of them.

Dwarves would require different rewrites, but we don't really know how the Kirkwallers would feel about a dwarven Champion. Hawke being a descendent of a native human Kirkwaller I think is a big point in his favor. I would believe that the nobility would be not accepting of a dwarven Champion, because the Champion is a position of high power and honor, above most nobles even, and something that I think would exceed their tolerance. There are other problems with a dwarf Hawke though. 

Shouldn't the nobility refuse to accept an apostate Hawke as well, then? Considering the scandal that erupted for the Amell family when it was discovered that magic ran in their line after Revka gave birth (since the title of Viscount was supposed to be given to Aristide Amell), it seems like saving the nobility from the Qunari was the reason why Hawke became their Champion.

Vandicus wrote...

I've never gotten that particular dialogue with her. Maybe things have changed in Orlais. The elven perspectives we've gotten of it previously are... a lot less cheery. From what I'm given to understand they're basically a slave underclass. Not really so much info on the dwarves though. 

An Elven Warden can tell Leliana it sounds like slavery. The conversation has Leliana admit that The Warden has made her reconsider how she previously viewed elves.

[silentassassin264]

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

No it doesn't.  Being Champion means nothing.  You have next to no political power.  The seneschal wanted nothing to do with you.  The Knight commander orders you around.  And you have no claim to the throne.  The Champion of Kirkwall is a celebrity at best.

[Vandicus]

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Don`t have to be a nobleman in order to get the title. Are you saying that if a dwarf saved Kirkwal, and defeated all the enemies, he would only get a pat on the back and some money? Even with the city looking up to him as a savior?

That's what America gave Lafayette no? The American born George Washington becomes President(of the new American confederacy), the French hero gets a pat on the back.

The US has nobility and royalty now? The english, spanish, french and so on, have all given nobility titles to people who have done something heroic for their country.

It follows your "logic" of similar actions=similar rewards that people would've demanded that Lafayette run for President no?

[Nerevar-as]

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

Fereldan isn't Kirkwall. The title of Champion does exceed those titles though if we're talking about comparative power. Though, Rawgrim himself concedes that nobility is unlikely in Kirkwall for dwarves or elves.

Varrick´s brother lived in Hightown, so it doesn´t look human nobles had much problem with dwarves, while taking Merril to your house was a scandal. I don´t think we can put dwarves in the same sack. Even in Imperium times they had trading relations with Tevinter, weren´t slaves (and backstabbed the elves who took refuge underground). So until the writers say otherwise, I´d limit the second class status to elves.

Otherwise, I didn´t see Champion Hawke to be very powerful. Couldn´t do anything about Meredith, the VIscount elcetion prior the Annulment, and if defended the mages had to escapre to avoid represalies by the Chantry despite proof Meredith had lost her mind. Not a very powerful person IMHO.

[Scott Sion]

Icinix wrote...

plnero wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Quite frankly I won't be happy until we can play through the entire game as a Marbari with the entire voiced dialogue as woofing.

I see the potential in this.

I know right - you could have voice actor greats pronouncing 'woof' in various ways. It would be glorious.

You could use a special smell ability to find hidden treasure and dig random holes instead of having to look in crates. The possibilities on the already overused mechanics are limitless.

The dogs could also use the whole mage rebellion as a chance to free themselves from human dominance and take their rightful place in the world. Perhaps it was the dogs who orchestrated this fiasco in the first place? It all makes sense now, motive and opportunity....
 
I never thought of this before. Well done Bioware, I did not see that coming.   

Modifié par plnero, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:41 .

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...





Well its not neccerairy the Noble title I am going for here. Its the champion title. Wich is pretty much a stamp of heroism. One could still gain land and cash in adition to this, without actually getting a Nobility title.

It's not, since you could invoke fears in the common people, which means you can be a villain in theory. The codex is more clear than me. But it's not important for the discussion.
I was referring to the fact that regaining the noble status is one of the main elements of Act 1, an that it was one of the reason Dumar was interested in you and gave you the job to talk with the Arishok. I don't know if Dumar would've given you the role without the noble status. There are way to make it works with an elf or a dwarf, but it has to change the story a bit. That of course if the Champion title could be give to an elf or dwarf, which we have no confirmation.
At the end, I don't care much about this discussion because I wanted race options in DA2. I just think DA2 story works better with a human Hawke, and that it'd have required changes for an elf or dwarf.

It certainly would have required changes. Not disputing that. The story works best for a human, sure. But my point is that it could have been tweaked in ways that wouldn`t require 3 completely different games, in order to add the option of an elf or a dwarf PC.

[The Elder King]

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...


[/quote]
They're two different places, and two different titles. The method to acquire it might be the only similar thing here.
[/quote]

And yet the titles WERE given for very very similar acts.

[/quote]
 
I said that the method is the same. The restriction doesn't have to be the same. Saving a city will not give you a title everytime. And the champion's title in redcliffe is a little more than an honorable guest. You're basically free to came to whenever you want. The Champion title in the FM holds an enormous power and prestige.

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

@Lobsel

Kirkwall was ruled by Orlais for a very long time. Many of its noble families are of Orlesian descent. My premise(though whether it is accurate or not is unknown in this case, but I at least think its plausible) is that the Kirkwall attitude towards elves is similar to the Orlesian one. It should be easy to see why an elf noble or Champion would not work in Orlais from what we know of them.

Dwarves would require different rewrites, but we don't really know how the Kirkwallers would feel about a dwarven Champion. Hawke being a descendent of a native human Kirkwaller I think is a big point in his favor. I would believe that the nobility would be not accepting of a dwarven Champion, because the Champion is a position of high power and honor, above most nobles even, and something that I think would exceed their tolerance. There are other problems with a dwarf Hawke though. 

Shouldn't the nobility refuse to accept an apostate Hawke as well, then? Considering the scandal that erupted for the Amell family when it was discovered that magic ran in their line after Revka gave birth (since the title of Viscount was supposed to be given to Aristide Amell), it seems like saving the nobility from the Qunari was the reason why Hawke became their Champion.

Vandicus wrote...

I've never gotten that particular dialogue with her. Maybe things have changed in Orlais. The elven perspectives we've gotten of it previously are... a lot less cheery. From what I'm given to understand they're basically a slave underclass. Not really so much info on the dwarves though. 

An Elven Warden can tell Leliana it sounds like slavery. The conversation has Leliana admit that The Warden has made her reconsider how she previously viewed elves.

Blood magic is a gaping plot hole acknowledged by the writers(and one which they hope to address better for DA3). Apostate leans that way as well. I would hope that you are not suggesting we go the route of simply trivializing race as the blood magic specialization and mage class were for DA2.

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Don`t have to be a nobleman in order to get the title. Are you saying that if a dwarf saved Kirkwal, and defeated all the enemies, he would only get a pat on the back and some money? Even with the city looking up to him as a savior?

That's what America gave Lafayette no? The American born George Washington becomes President(of the new American confederacy), the French hero gets a pat on the back.

The US has nobility and royalty now? The english, spanish, french and so on, have all given nobility titles to people who have done something heroic for their country.

It follows your "logic" of similar actions=similar rewards that people would've demanded that Lafayette run for President no?

Had the US been a monarchy, I am sure things would have been different when it came to rewards. Thedas seems to be mostly monarchies so thats kind of why the titles and rewards etc are simmilar.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...



It certainly would have required changes. Not disputing that. The story works best for a human, sure. But my point is that it could have been tweaked in ways that wouldn`t require 3 completely different games, in order to add the option of an elf or a dwarf PC.

Completely different games, no, I agree on that. If the Champion's title is available to elf and dwarf. I really do want to ask the question to a Bioware's dev now.

[Rawgrim]

[quote]hhh89 wrote...

[quote]Rawgrim wrote...


[/quote]
They're two different places, and two different titles. The method to acquire it might be the only similar thing here.
[/quote]

And yet the titles WERE given for very very similar acts.

[/quote]
 
I said that the method is the same. The restriction doesn't have to be the same. Saving a city will not give you a title everytime. And the champion's title in redcliffe is a little more than an honorable guest. You're basically free to came to whenever you want. The Champion title in the FM holds an enormous power and prestige.

[/quote]

The Redcliffe one is naturally smaller. It was given to you by an arl, and not the king. Naturally it holds less power.

[Vandicus]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

Fereldan isn't Kirkwall. The title of Champion does exceed those titles though if we're talking about comparative power. Though, Rawgrim himself concedes that nobility is unlikely in Kirkwall for dwarves or elves.

Varrick´s brother lived in Hightown, so it doesn´t look human nobles had much problem with dwarves, while taking Merril to your house was a scandal. I don´t think we can put dwarves in the same sack. Even in Imperium times they had trading relations with Tevinter, weren´t slaves (and backstabbed the elves who took refuge underground). So until the writers say otherwise, I´d limit the second class status to elves.

Otherwise, I didn´t see Champion Hawke to be very powerful. Couldn´t do anything about Meredith, the VIscount elcetion prior the Annulment, and if defended the mages had to escapre to avoid represalies by the Chantry despite proof Meredith had lost her mind. Not a very powerful person IMHO.

Official political power is not the same type of power wielded by the nobility in Kirkwall. The Viscount(officially) holds power in Kirkwall. The Knight-Commander does not have official political power in Kirkwall. The nobility, like in Orlais, measure their power in social status, wealth, and influence.

But this begins to go to a tanget on the nature of power. George R.R. Martin has some interesting lines on the subject.