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[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



It certainly would have required changes. Not disputing that. The story works best for a human, sure. But my point is that it could have been tweaked in ways that wouldn`t require 3 completely different games, in order to add the option of an elf or a dwarf PC.

Completely different games, no, I agree on that. If the Champion's title is available to elf and dwarf. I really do want to ask the question to a Bioware's dev now.

Finally. That was what I was getting at all along.

[The Elder King]

silentassassin264 wrote...


No it doesn't.  Being Champion means nothing.  You have next to no political power.  The seneschal wanted nothing to do with you.  The Knight commander orders you around.  And you have no claim to the throne.  The Champion of Kirkwall is a celebrity at best.

I was never commanded by Meredith in the game. And Anders was safe in Darktown and not in the Gallows becase of Hawke. Hawke could have a claim to the throne, for his nobility and title (you're forgetting how much power templars had in Kirkwall. The Viscount before Dumar was killed because he went against them, and Dumar himself was a little more than their puppet. Mereidth clearly didn't like you, and she wanted power for herself).

[Rawgrim]

Vandicus wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

How do you think it compares to Teyrn of Gwaren or Arl of Amaranthine?

Fereldan isn't Kirkwall. The title of Champion does exceed those titles though if we're talking about comparative power. Though, Rawgrim himself concedes that nobility is unlikely in Kirkwall for dwarves or elves.

Varrick´s brother lived in Hightown, so it doesn´t look human nobles had much problem with dwarves, while taking Merril to your house was a scandal. I don´t think we can put dwarves in the same sack. Even in Imperium times they had trading relations with Tevinter, weren´t slaves (and backstabbed the elves who took refuge underground). So until the writers say otherwise, I´d limit the second class status to elves.

Otherwise, I didn´t see Champion Hawke to be very powerful. Couldn´t do anything about Meredith, the VIscount elcetion prior the Annulment, and if defended the mages had to escapre to avoid represalies by the Chantry despite proof Meredith had lost her mind. Not a very powerful person IMHO.

Official political power is not the same type of power wielded by the nobility in Kirkwall. The Viscount(officially) holds power in Kirkwall. The Knight-Commander does not have official political power in Kirkwall. The nobility, like in Orlais, measure their power in social status, wealth, and influence.

But this begins to go to a tanget on the nature of power. George R.R. Martin has some interesting lines on the subject.

He has a very good line about it, i agree. If its that riddle Varys tells, you are reffering to?

[ianvillan]

I have complained on this thread about the lack of races and other things, but maybe instead of still looking at the news as what is lacking from Origins we should be looking at it as what we are gaining over DA2.

Backgrounds is something we never had in DA2, having a castle is something we never had in DA2 so we have gained on what we had in DA2 so far.

[Nerevar-as]

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[quote]Nerevar-as wrote...

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.
[/quote]Half Orcs are considered to be inherently savage,cruel and evil as are drow in D&D Half Elves also face discrimination of a sort based on they're race mostly because elves are alien to the populance at large thus misconceptions are rampant.

The racial conflict hardly comes up in Origins as well for the PC so I don't see how Thedas's racial conflict is larger than D&D's.

[/quote]

Drows and orcs and other CE races don´t really count, as they fill a similar niche to darkspawn in DA. There are wars, but not the kind of racial conflict there´s on Thedas or Geralt´s world. It´s an interesting dinamic to explore, and it´s DA loss that they´ve chosen not to allow us to see through the eyes of those other races. At least in TW Geralt (and people without tact or common sense) often reminds us he´s also an outsider.

[/quote]You are aware you can be a good Drow in D&D right ? plus there's Drizzt whose chaotic good despite growing up in the hellhole that is the Undercity And Half Orcs are largley Chaotic aligned but they are not evil by defaualt They are hated because they have an Orc parent the fact that most most Half orcs are born out of rape makes it even more tragic for them
[/quote]

Drizzt is more exception than rule, as a whole drows are a problem, and don´t work to explore clash of cultures dinamics when theirs wants to destroy yours. I don´t know if half orcs have formed a society, although as individuals they sound very tragic, I don´t know if they´d have the same mindset a dalish would have. But elves in Dragon Age, or any non human race in The Witcher, they are second class, persecuted, or even genocided. Maybe is a matter of rooting for the underdog, but I want to see their POV from their eyes, and it´s twice in a row BW has decided not to do it. So at least I hope DA3 doesn´t go to deep in that theme and they explore in a product where I can play as one of them (not going to happen, but one can dream).

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...



The Redcliffe one is naturally smaller. It was given to you by an arl, and not the king. Naturally it holds less power.

Actually, the one who gave it to Hawke had in theory a smaller rank than Eamon. Meredith was merely the KC of Kirkwall at the moment. Even in Act 3, she's not the Viscount. Now, we can that Meredith held more power than Dumar long before Act 3, but her rank isn't even on the ierarchy of Kirkwall's political government, since she's from a different institution.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:51 .

[Urazz]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

No it doesn't.  Being Champion means nothing.  You have next to no political power.  The seneschal wanted nothing to do with you.  The Knight commander orders you around.  And you have no claim to the throne.  The Champion of Kirkwall is a celebrity at best.

It does give you some power but not enough to rule.  I.E. if your Hawke is a mage it prevents you from being taken to the Circle.  It was why you had to hunt those mages in Act 3 as a mage Hawke even if you didn't want to.  Meredith would've revoked your title as Champion of Kirkwall if you refused to help defend Kirkwall from apostates and treated you like any other apostate.

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

Blood magic is a gaping plot hole acknowledged by the writers(and one which they hope to address better for DA3). Apostate leans that way as well. I would hope that you are not suggesting we go the route of simply trivializing race as the blood magic specialization and mage class were for DA2. 

I doubt blood mage Hawke would announce that he uses blood magic, as even The Warden was supposed to be able to claim that it wasn't blood magic but Grey Warden magic that he was using. However, it seems to be that it was Hawke defeating the Arishok and the Qunari that earned his standing with the nobility, as well as protecting his apostate companions Merrill and Anders. Simply because the narrative didn't explicitly address apostate Hawke in a proper manner, or give him a proper apostate POV, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been a hero for saving the lives of the nobility from the Qunari.

We see with the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle and the Baronness (after she defeated the Dragon in Blackmarsh) that people can see mages as heroes after they have done something heroic.

Perhaps the same might be true for an Elven or Dwarven protagonist who saved the nobility from the Qunari. Even Garahel was able to mobilize the Free Marches against the darkspawn, despite being elven. I simply don't think it should be dismissed.

[Heimdall]

I think the issue of implementing race in DA2 became a problem to the story because they would basically have to write three whole games if they wanted the involvement of the character's family. For elves, moving to High Town would have been very difficult to make work as their universally looked down upon amongst the nobility. A Dwarf might have gotten past that problem with the Merchant's guild, but the race it self spoils their scheme to involve Hawke's family with the mage templar conflict to give you some stake in it.

Simply put, in broad strokes a protagonist of different races could have been implemented, but when you get down to details they would have had a great deal of work to do to make the stories of the three races fit into their overall arch in a similar manner. Given the brief development cycle, it's no wonder they decided a human protagonist was the only realistic way to implement their story.

[Rawgrim]

hhh89 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



The Redcliffe one is naturally smaller. It was given to you by an arl, and not the king. Naturally it holds less power.

Actually, the one who gave it to Hawke had in theory a smaller rank than Eamon. Meredith was merely the KC of Kirkwall at the moment. Even in Act 3, she's not the Viscount. Now, we can that Meredith held more power than Dumar long before Act 3, but her rank isn't even on the ierarchy of Kirkwall's political government, since she's from a different institution.

I allways figured she gave it to Hawke because there wasn`t any viscount around to do it. More or less just stepping in since she was "next in line" to do it.

[Nerevar-as]

Vandicus wrote...

Official political power is not the same type of power wielded by the nobility in Kirkwall. The Viscount(officially) holds power in Kirkwall. The Knight-Commander does not have official political power in Kirkwall. The nobility, like in Orlais, measure their power in social status, wealth, and influence.

But this begins to go to a tanget on the nature of power. George R.R. Martin has some interesting lines on the subject.

Sorry, what? It was quite clear who had the last word in KW, and it wasn´t the Viscount. Power that can be overruled by an outsider´s whim is hardly power. And the CoK never showed to have any other power than people who couldn´t influence events listening to him/her. Pretty pathetic IMHO.

[Maria Caliban]

Monica21 wrote...

You do need a second party with whom to have a discussion.

I have discussions with myself all the time.

Monica21 wrote...

My argument is that a good cRPG requires more than just a player's good imagination. It requires feedback from the game itself, otherwise it's just your imagination creating headcanon.

I agree with that.

Your own personal headcanon is useless in the framework of the gameworld.

Disagree with that.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 octobre 2012 - 09:59 .

[Nerevar-as]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think the issue of implementing race in DA2 became a problem to the story because they would basically have to write three whole games if they wanted the involvement of the character's family. For elves, moving to High Town would have been very difficult to make work as their universally looked down upon amongst the nobility. A Dwarf might have gotten past that problem with the Merchant's guild, but the race it self spoils their scheme to involve Hawke's family with the mage templar conflict to give you some stake in it.

Simply put, in broad strokes a protagonist of different races could have been implemented, but when you get down to details they would have had a great deal of work to do to make the stories of the three races fit into their overall arch in a similar manner. Given the brief development cycle, it's no wonder they decided a human protagonist was the only realistic way to implement their story.

Which is waht they did in Origins. Depending on who you were, you´re personal involvement in the plot would be in different points of the game. And they did it with six origins (some worked better than others though). So that wasn´t an obstacle then nor now.

[LobselVith8]

Urazz wrote...

It does give you some power but not enough to rule.  I.E. if your Hawke is a mage it prevents you from being taken to the Circle.  It was why you had to hunt those mages in Act 3 as a mage Hawke even if you didn't want to.  Meredith would've revoked your title as Champion of Kirkwall if you refused to help defend Kirkwall from apostates and treated you like any other apostate.

I don't think Meredith can revoke the title of Champion; based on the codex, it doesn't seem to be something that one single person can simpy hand to you.

[silentassassin264]

hhh89 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...


No it doesn't.  Being Champion means nothing.  You have next to no political power.  The seneschal wanted nothing to do with you.  The Knight commander orders you around.  And you have no claim to the throne.  The Champion of Kirkwall is a celebrity at best.

I was never commanded by Meredith in the game. And Anders was safe in Darktown and not in the Gallows becase of Hawke. Hawke could have a claim to the throne, for his nobility and title (you're forgetting how much power templars had in Kirkwall. The Viscount before Dumar was killed because he went against them, and Dumar himself was a little more than their puppet. Mereidth clearly didn't like you, and she wanted power for herself).

1.  Play as a mage and tell Meredith that you won't help her track down the runaways in Act 3.  She will point blank tell you that she allowed you to stay out of the circle because your celebrity was useful to her.  If you do not cooperate you will cease to be useful and be imprisoned.  Needless to say, you have to do her mission.  

2. Side with Orsino with the debate at the beginning of Act 3.  You will get this sidequest with the nobles trying to get someone on the throne (anyone even you) but being completely unable because nobility has no political power in Kirkwall.  Meredith controls all of it and you have no position even as supposed Champion to say otherwise.

[Icinix]

ianvillan wrote...

I have complained on this thread about the lack of races and other things, but maybe instead of still looking at the news as what is lacking from Origins we should be looking at it as what we are gaining over DA2.

Backgrounds is something we never had in DA2, having a castle is something we never had in DA2 so we have gained on what we had in DA2 so far.

Their implementation is going to be all important.

We had backgrounds in DAO (Origins) and we had a castle in DAO (Awakenings).

So if they expand on those and in particular if the castle exceeds the way it worked in NWN2 - then that singular thing will probably be enough for me to order the CE of DA3.

[ElitePinecone]

DuskWarden wrote...

I prefer the poll system used on these boards to that used there.

The selection criteria for these forums are:

-interested in DA
-knows how to use the internet

It's not the minority people make it out to be really.

Statistically, it really is a minority - a tiny one. Using polls on the BSN as some kind of proxy for the attitudes of the wider audience of people who play DA is, quite frankly, stupid.

Not to mention that people who answer polls here are self-selecting (they feel angry/happy enough about a topic to answer a poll about it) - apathy rarely drives people to answer polls. 

Also, the barrier to posting on the forums isn't just "interested in DA", it's "interested in DA to such an extent that they bother to track down the developer of the game, sign up on their forum and post in topics related to their areas of interest." 

As in, people who post here - particularly when no DA game has been released for eighteen months - are the super die-hards, maybe even the obsessives. We're in no way representative of the wider audience of the game (the ~4-5 millon who never sign up for a forum).

Bioware, luckily, have their own telemetry that's taken by default from everyone who plays the game unless they opt out. David Gaider said a while ago that this data showed a vast majority of Origins players used the Human Noble background, and if I remember correctly one of the elves was only used by something like ~5% of Origins players.

[The Elder King]

Rawgrim wrote...



I allways figured she gave it to Hawke because there wasn`t any viscount around to do it. More or less just stepping in since she was "next in line" to do it.

She wasn't, as a templar couldn't become Viscount. There were complaints from nobility to Meredith because she was procrastinating (to use an eufemism) the new Viscount's election. It is stated somewhere (even before the release of the game) that templars had massive powers in Kirkwall.

[silentassassin264]

Faerunner wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not even a title in the same way Hawke would be "Lord Amell" if he accepted the Viscount's recognition of him as the Amell heir; Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall because he stopped the Qunari invasion. You can be a hero or a villain, and still become Champion.

Technically speaking, an Elven or Dwarven protagonist could have done pretty much the same thing Hawke did throughout the narrative: lived in Lothering, escaped the darkspawn horde, lost a family member, traveled to the nearby city-state to escape the Blight, become a member of the mercenaries or the smugglers to earn enough money to enter the city, made a name for himself while working for the respective group, become allies with Varric, become wealthy from the Deep Roads expedition, earned the notice of the Viscount via the Arishok's demand for the protagonist, and the protagonist can defeat the Arishok.

Aside from the plot of the Amell mansion, it could be roughly the same path for the Elven or Dwarven protagonist. I don't see what required Hawke to be human, aside from the constraints of the budget and the time it took to make the game. From a narrative standpoint, Hawke could have been Elven or Dwarven, and earned the right to be the Champion of Kirkwall. The plot certainly accomodated an apostate Hawke to become Champion, despite the fact that it was illegal for Hawke to live outside the Circle Tower.

Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

[Nerevar-as]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not even a title in the same way Hawke would be "Lord Amell" if he accepted the Viscount's recognition of him as the Amell heir; Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall because he stopped the Qunari invasion. You can be a hero or a villain, and still become Champion.

Technically speaking, an Elven or Dwarven protagonist could have done pretty much the same thing Hawke did throughout the narrative: lived in Lothering, escaped the darkspawn horde, lost a family member, traveled to the nearby city-state to escape the Blight, become a member of the mercenaries or the smugglers to earn enough money to enter the city, made a name for himself while working for the respective group, become allies with Varric, become wealthy from the Deep Roads expedition, earned the notice of the Viscount via the Arishok's demand for the protagonist, and the protagonist can defeat the Arishok.

Aside from the plot of the Amell mansion, it could be roughly the same path for the Elven or Dwarven protagonist. I don't see what required Hawke to be human, aside from the constraints of the budget and the time it took to make the game. From a narrative standpoint, Hawke could have been Elven or Dwarven, and earned the right to be the Champion of Kirkwall. The plot certainly accomodated an apostate Hawke to become Champion, despite the fact that it was illegal for Hawke to live outside the Circle Tower.

Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

What did he say?

[The Elder King]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...



Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

So if someone thinks that DA2's story (becoming noble, Champion, possibly Viscount, etc.) made no sense if Hawke was a mage (which I think), that someone can think that the story woud've made no sense if Hawke was a dwarf or a elf?

[Shadow Fox]

[quote]Nerevar-as wrote...

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

[quote]Nerevar-as wrote...

[quote]Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Your persistence in strawman is quite amusing. GW2 would've been a far better example to use in your refutation anyways. My point, as I state, was one of generality. Not referring to any specific particular title in that list, but the list as a whole. 


In context, the racial conflicts in verses in the games that were brought up typically don't come up in any major way. And in none of the games mentioned, except for the possibility of GW2(which I have not played but I have stated has true reactive elements and is thus the only proper analogy in the set) is the racial conflict on the same level of omnipresence as Thedas.
[/quote]Half Orcs are considered to be inherently savage,cruel and evil as are drow in D&D Half Elves also face discrimination of a sort based on they're race mostly because elves are alien to the populance at large thus misconceptions are rampant.

The racial conflict hardly comes up in Origins as well for the PC so I don't see how Thedas's racial conflict is larger than D&D's.

[/quote]

Drows and orcs and other CE races don´t really count, as they fill a similar niche to darkspawn in DA. There are wars, but not the kind of racial conflict there´s on Thedas or Geralt´s world. It´s an interesting dinamic to explore, and it´s DA loss that they´ve chosen not to allow us to see through the eyes of those other races. At least in TW Geralt (and people without tact or common sense) often reminds us he´s also an outsider.

[/quote]You are aware you can be a good Drow in D&D right ? plus there's Drizzt whose chaotic good despite growing up in the hellhole that is the Undercity And Half Orcs are largley Chaotic aligned but they are not evil by defaualt They are hated because they have an Orc parent the fact that most most Half orcs are born out of rape makes it even more tragic for them
[/quote]

Drizzt is more exception than rule, as a whole drows are a problem, and don´t work to explore clash of cultures dinamics when theirs wants to destroy yours. I don´t know if half orcs have formed a society, although as individuals they sound very tragic, I don´t know if they´d have the same mindset a dalish would have. But elves in Dragon Age, or any non human race in The Witcher, they are second class, persecuted, or even genocided. Maybe is a matter of rooting for the underdog, but I want to see their POV from their eyes, and it´s twice in a row BW has decided not to do it. So at least I hope DA3 doesn´t go to deep in that theme and they explore in a product where I can play as one of them (not going to happen, but one can dream).

[/quote]Your right good drows are the exception and  I think most are not from the Undercity but rather born on the surface from parents that fled the Undercity/abandoned Lolith*thus aren't considered "true Drows" by evil Drows*

And no Half Orcs don't have a home to call they're own aside from palischuk in Vaaasa where a small community thrives according to the wiki  most are vagrant wanderers as society doesn't accept them and most become adventurers in order to prove they're worth or because it's the only option they feel they have for a somewhat honest living as the other options are menial labor or criminal.

[JWvonGoethe]

Assuming there are, say, three different human background stories, couldn't the human PC in just one of those stories be replaced by an elf without incurring any great additional costs and resources?

I'm guessing the answer is no - camera issues due to height differences being one reason why - but, having read through Allan's posts, I'm still not sure I understand what any of the other reasons are.

If a human commoner background were replaced with a city elf background then obviously there would need to be all sorts of elven references put in to the game. But why would those references be more expensive to implement than references to the background of the human commoner?

It's a genuine question, not a complaint.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:15 .