3855 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

Pretty much I told him that if you had had an elf or dwarf it would have had minimal change to the story. I said you would have to do away with the whole Amell mansion thing, give the dwarf an "adoptive" sibling/close friend of the family to be the mage, and give different contact for in the city since obviously Gamlen wouldn't work with the Amell thing scrapped. He said "But we would have the rewrite the story." I said well obviously since the option was not in originally. And he responded with "But we would have the rewrite the story." The insane troll logic made me nearly froth with rage. Which of course meant he won.

[Heimdall]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think the issue of implementing race in DA2 became a problem to the story because they would basically have to write three whole games if they wanted the involvement of the character's family. For elves, moving to High Town would have been very difficult to make work as their universally looked down upon amongst the nobility. A Dwarf might have gotten past that problem with the Merchant's guild, but the race it self spoils their scheme to involve Hawke's family with the mage templar conflict to give you some stake in it.

Simply put, in broad strokes a protagonist of different races could have been implemented, but when you get down to details they would have had a great deal of work to do to make the stories of the three races fit into their overall arch in a similar manner. Given the brief development cycle, it's no wonder they decided a human protagonist was the only realistic way to implement their story.

Which is waht they did in Origins. Depending on who you were, you´re personal involvement in the plot would be in different points of the game. And they did it with six origins (some worked better than others though). So that wasn´t an obstacle then nor now.

Wrong

In Origins, the character's personal circumstances and race were utterly irrelevant because they were Grey Warden.  That's how they solved the race problem, by relegating points of personal involvement to what amounts to a handful of extra dialogue points when the protagonist happens to be in the area.  Races were largely cosmetic.

In DA2, they designed the plot so that the protagonist would become a noble, live in hightown, and have a stake in the mage problem.  The same path would require substantial deviation for a dwarf or elf protagonist.  As I explained, getting an elf living amongst the nobility of Kirkwall would require significantly more auspicious circumstances than a human or a dwarf.  A dwarf would remove the connection to the mage issue that makes it a personal matter for the protagonist.  All around, the current story just wouldn't work without substantial changes as the story was tailored to a human protagonist..

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

So if someone thinks that DA2's story (becoming noble, Champion, possibly Viscount, etc.) made no sense if Hawke was a mage (which I think), that someone can think that the story woud've made no sense if Hawke was a dwarf or a elf? 

More along the lines of the nobility overlooking the fact that Hawke was an apostate because he heroically saved them from the Qunari. It's no different than Queen Anora pointing out that people think the Hero of Ferelden is "blessed by the Maker" even if The Warden is a mage (which is noted by Irving), and the Baroness (an Orlesian mage who ruled a small part of Amaranthine during the Orlesian occupation) became a hero to the village after saving Blackmarsh from a dragon (before she showed her true colors).

[Rawgrim]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Assuming there are, say, three different human background stories, couldn't the human PC in just one of those stories be replaced by an elf without incurring any great additional costs and resources?

I'm guessing the answer is no - camera issues due to height differences being one reason why - but, having read through Allan's posts, I'm still not sure I understand what any of the other reasons are.

If a human commoner background were replaced with a city elf background then obviously there would need to be all sorts of elven references put in to the game. But why would those references be more expensive to implement than references to the background of the human commoner?

It's a genuine question, not a complaint.

I belive the backgrounds will be text based, like they werein Mass Effect.

[Nerevar-as]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think the issue of implementing race in DA2 became a problem to the story because they would basically have to write three whole games if they wanted the involvement of the character's family. For elves, moving to High Town would have been very difficult to make work as their universally looked down upon amongst the nobility. A Dwarf might have gotten past that problem with the Merchant's guild, but the race it self spoils their scheme to involve Hawke's family with the mage templar conflict to give you some stake in it.

Simply put, in broad strokes a protagonist of different races could have been implemented, but when you get down to details they would have had a great deal of work to do to make the stories of the three races fit into their overall arch in a similar manner. Given the brief development cycle, it's no wonder they decided a human protagonist was the only realistic way to implement their story.

Which is waht they did in Origins. Depending on who you were, you´re personal involvement in the plot would be in different points of the game. And they did it with six origins (some worked better than others though). So that wasn´t an obstacle then nor now.

Wrong

In Origins, the character's personal circumstances and race were utterly irrelevant because they were Grey Warden.  That's how they solved the race problem, by relegating points of personal involvement to what amounts to a handful of extra dialogue points when the protagonist happens to be in the area.  Races were largely cosmetic.

In DA2, they designed the plot so that the protagonist would become a noble, live in hightown, and have a stake in the mage problem.  The same path would require substantial deviation for a dwarf or elf protagonist.  As I explained, getting an elf living amongst the nobility of Kirkwall would require significantly more auspicious circumstances than a human or a dwarf.  A dwarf would remove the connection to the mage issue that makes it a personal matter for the protagonist.  All around, the current story just wouldn't work without substantial changes as the story was tailored to a human protagonist..

I disagree. Living in Hightown didn´t affect the story the least. And the mage issue ends in a genocide. So I don´t see having a personal connection being that important when you have to take sides in an event of tsuch scale.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

So if someone thinks that DA2's story (becoming noble, Champion, possibly Viscount, etc.) made no sense if Hawke was a mage (which I think), that someone can think that the story woud've made no sense if Hawke was a dwarf or a elf? 

More along the lines of the nobility overlooking the fact that Hawke was an apostate because he heroically saved them from the Qunari. It's no different than Queen Anora pointing out that people think the Hero of Ferelden is "blessed by the Maker" even if The Warden is a mage (which is noted by Irving), and the Baroness (an Orlesian mage who ruled a small part of Amaranthine during the Orlesian occupation) became a hero to the village after saving Blackmarsh from a dragon (before she showed her true colors).

I was referring to the fact that the poster was equating the mage to the elf and dwarf. If I think that DA2's story made no sense for a mage, and should've been different, I could think the same for an elf or dwarf Hawke.
The Baroness hided the fact that she was a mage, if I recall. And why a Warden coudn't be blessed by the Maker (if the exist )? Neither Andraste not the Maker said that a mage is should be considered differently by non-mages. Andraste's teachings (magic should serve men, not rule over them) were interpretated by the Chantry. She simply said that magic is dangerous and shold be of service to humanity, and not ruling over humanity.

[Allan Schumacher]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Is MP in  non shooter games that popular, or someone decided if it is popular in a kind of game then it´ll also work
in any other?

I´m afraid if DA3 has any cut corners (and we already have race) and MP, there´s going to be quite a ****storm.

And have you thought of making expansions/DLCs involving PCs of other races to explore their lore, rather than have a (problably) outsider human do it?

This is in part why MP isn't confirmed at this point.  The most important thing about adding something like that is that it's fun, and there are differences to how it can be fun compared to a shooter based game.


I'm unaware of any DLC/expansion type plans.  I'm sure some stuff in some places have been flagged as "nice to have" type of features/content that will be considered for future work, but likely only on an adhoc, informal basis.

[ianvillan]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Pretty much I told him that if you had had an elf or dwarf it would have had minimal change to the story. I said you would have to do away with the whole Amell mansion thing, give the dwarf an "adoptive" sibling/close friend of the family to be the mage, and give different contact for in the city since obviously Gamlen wouldn't work with the Amell thing scrapped. He said "But we would have the rewrite the story." I said well obviously since the option was not in originally. And he responded with "But we would have the rewrite the story." The insane troll logic made me nearly froth with rage. Which of course meant he won.

This is what I dont get, surely David did not finish the story and then realise that only a human was suitable because he had given the protagonist a human family.

I find it more likely that before the story was even started they decided to be human only, so David created a story around a human character.

So when Bioware comes out and says they went with human only because the story demanded it, it seems just to be an excuse for the human only character.

[Todd23]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Discuss how this makes you feel here.

Be civil to one another.  Respect that other people have differing opinions, and this works both ways.  So if you LIKE this decision, respect that others are disappointed by it.

Rather than closing threads I'll try talking with posters whom I think are crossing the line.

Denial:


Anger:


Bargaining:


Depression:

Modifié par Todd23, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Nerevar-as]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Agreed so much. It would have been no better or worse from a story stanpoint than it was for a human apostate.

I argued with David Gaider this point.  Needless to say I wanted to punch my computer screen in at his response. 

So if someone thinks that DA2's story (becoming noble, Champion, possibly Viscount, etc.) made no sense if Hawke was a mage (which I think), that someone can think that the story woud've made no sense if Hawke was a dwarf or a elf? 

More along the lines of the nobility overlooking the fact that Hawke was an apostate because he heroically saved them from the Qunari. It's no different than Queen Anora pointing out that people think the Hero of Ferelden is "blessed by the Maker" even if The Warden is a mage (which is noted by Irving), and the Baroness (an Orlesian mage who ruled a small part of Amaranthine during the Orlesian occupation) became a hero to the village after saving Blackmarsh from a dragon (before she showed her true colors).

You are overlooking the "apostate" part in a city ruled by an antimage despot. The Mage Warden was both a Warden and trained by the Circle. AFAIK, Morrigan´s status wasn´t public outside the group, and Wynne even has quite the reaction if she learns on the tower.

[Heimdall]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I think the issue of implementing race in DA2 became a problem to the story because they would basically have to write three whole games if they wanted the involvement of the character's family. For elves, moving to High Town would have been very difficult to make work as their universally looked down upon amongst the nobility. A Dwarf might have gotten past that problem with the Merchant's guild, but the race it self spoils their scheme to involve Hawke's family with the mage templar conflict to give you some stake in it.

Simply put, in broad strokes a protagonist of different races could have been implemented, but when you get down to details they would have had a great deal of work to do to make the stories of the three races fit into their overall arch in a similar manner. Given the brief development cycle, it's no wonder they decided a human protagonist was the only realistic way to implement their story.

Which is waht they did in Origins. Depending on who you were, you´re personal involvement in the plot would be in different points of the game. And they did it with six origins (some worked better than others though). So that wasn´t an obstacle then nor now.

Wrong

In Origins, the character's personal circumstances and race were utterly irrelevant because they were Grey Warden.  That's how they solved the race problem, by relegating points of personal involvement to what amounts to a handful of extra dialogue points when the protagonist happens to be in the area.  Races were largely cosmetic.

In DA2, they designed the plot so that the protagonist would become a noble, live in hightown, and have a stake in the mage problem.  The same path would require substantial deviation for a dwarf or elf protagonist.  As I explained, getting an elf living amongst the nobility of Kirkwall would require significantly more auspicious circumstances than a human or a dwarf.  A dwarf would remove the connection to the mage issue that makes it a personal matter for the protagonist.  All around, the current story just wouldn't work without substantial changes as the story was tailored to a human protagonist..

I disagree. Living in Hightown didn´t affect the story the least. And the mage issue ends in a genocide. So I don´t see having a personal connection being that important when you have to take sides in an event of tsuch scale.

Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.  The mage issue is central aspect of the story, a story Bioware wanted the protagonist to have a personal stake in to account for roleplaying differences.  Many players would care less about a few faceless mages dying, but when you include the protagonist's sister in that number?  It's a mechanism to ensure that Bioware doesn't have to assume you are playing a very altruistic character to get you to care and make the decision harder for the anti mage.  Not that it was always successful, and it was a bit clumsy at times, but that was the point.

[JWvonGoethe]

Rawgrim wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Assuming there are, say, three different human background stories, couldn't the human PC in just one of those stories be replaced by an elf without incurring any great additional costs and resources?

I'm guessing the answer is no - camera issues due to height differences being one reason why - but, having read through Allan's posts, I'm still not sure I understand what any of the other reasons are.

If a human commoner background were replaced with a city elf background then obviously there would need to be all sorts of elven references put in to the game. But why would those references be more expensive to implement than references to the background of the human commoner?

It's a genuine question, not a complaint.

I belive the backgrounds will be text based, like they werein Mass Effect.

It is possible that that will be the case, but I'm afraid I don't see how it relates to my question. When I mentioned camera issues I meant that during the main game, there would need to be slightly different cinematics programmed for an elf and human, because of height differences between the two races. I used that as an example of one extra cost for having two playable races.

Most in-game references to the background stories are not going to be text-based. So, I'll repeat; why would those references be any more expensive to implement for a city elf as opposed to a human commoner? That is what I don't fully understand.

[EDIT: messed up penultimate sentence in original post.]

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Arch1eviathan]

It doesn't really bother me. As long as the plot and gameplay are solid I don't see this being much of an issue.

[Nerevar-as]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.  The mage issue is central aspect of the story, a story Bioware wanted the protagonist to have a personal stake in to account for roleplaying differences.  Many players would care less about a few faceless mages dying, but when you include the protagonist's sister in that number?  It's a mechanism to ensure that Bioware doesn't have to assume you are playing a very altruistic character to get you to care and make the decision harder for the anti mage.  Not that it was always successful, and it was a bit clumsy at times, but that was the point.

Let´s say an elf goes to the Deep Roads and comes back rich. Just who is going to stop his/her rise? By that time s/he´s so badass that can beat to pulp the thugs other nobles send to kick him/her out of Hightown. Or maybe s/he uses the money to improve the Alienage, and whoever tried to stop it gets the same treatment.

And about the mages, there´s also people who took the chance to kill Bethany there, or sided with MEredith and only spared her, so it´s not that key factor. It´s about one´s morals, and that´s on who they are, not what their sister is.

So I don´t see any of those aspects to be the pillars the story is written around, much less preventing the PC from being a member of other race. Being a Cousland had much more impact on Origins than being human has on DA2.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:38 .

[99DP1982]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Is MP in  non shooter games that popular, or someone decided if it is popular in a kind of game then it´ll also work
in any other?

I´m afraid if DA3 has any cut corners (and we already have race) and MP, there´s going to be quite a ****storm.

And have you thought of making expansions/DLCs involving PCs of other races to explore their lore, rather than have a (problably) outsider human do it?

This is in part why MP isn't confirmed at this point.  The most important thing about adding something like that is that it's fun, and there are differences to how it can be fun compared to a shooter based game.


I'm unaware of any DLC/expansion type plans.  I'm sure some stuff in some places have been flagged as "nice to have" type of features/content that will be considered for future work, but likely only on an adhoc, informal basis.

I'd say that yes, MP is pretty much successful.

RTS
TBS
RPGs (NWN for exampe)
Simulators
MOBA games (DotA and the rest of clones)
and probably more...


People have a natural tendency of socializing and they like also to compete... (even to brag about being better than others at something)

Modifié par 99DP1982, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:41 .

[CuriousArtemis]

motomotogirl wrote...

I notice that Allan is replying a lot in this thread,so I wonder if he could comment on whether DA3's CC will allow users to customize body size and type? This would help alleviate the pain of not being able to play as a non-human!

If this question has already been asked and answered, I apologize

Just thought I'd repeat/repost my question since I fear it's gotten lost in the incredibly long OT discussion  

[Heimdall]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.  The mage issue is central aspect of the story, a story Bioware wanted the protagonist to have a personal stake in to account for roleplaying differences.  Many players would care less about a few faceless mages dying, but when you include the protagonist's sister in that number?  It's a mechanism to ensure that Bioware doesn't have to assume you are playing a very altruistic character to get you to care and make the decision harder for the anti mage.  Not that it was always successful, and it was a bit clumsy at times, but that was the point.

Let´s say an elf goes to the Deep Roads and comes back rich. Just who is going to stop his/her rise? By that time s/he´s so badass that can beat to pulp the thugs other nobles send to kick him/her out of Hightown. Or maybe s/he uses the money to improve the Alienage, and whoever tried to stop it gets the same treatment.

And about the mages, there´s also people who took the chance to kill Bethany there, or sided with MEredith and only spared her, so it´s not that key factor. It´s about one´s morals, and that´s on who they are, not what their sister is.

So I don´t see any of those aspects to be the pillars the story is written around, much less preventing the PC from being a member of other race. Being a Cousland had much more impact on Origins than being human has on DA2.

A rise in wealth and a rise in social position are not the same thing.  Nothing stops the former, but the nobles would block the latter on prejudice alone.  Having more coin would change little by itself.  You still wouldn't get to the stepping stone between refugee and Champion the developers clearly wanted the nable estate to be.  I'd wager the nobles still wouldn't let the protagonist live in High Town after becoming champion.

You miss the point.  Without a connection, whether through being a mage or related to a mage, they would leave the character asking: Why on earth would I even be involved in this situation when I have no stake in it?  Clearly they didn't do enough since people are still asking that, but the sibling is a mitigating factor.  Tell me, why be involved with the conflict if the only concerned mage you know is Anders and you don't like him?

Being a Cousland had absolutely no impact on the story of Origins.  All it provided was some flavor dialogue options when you met Howe again.

[Heimdall]

Faerunner wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.

No more implausable than for a known apostate to be able to live in Hightown for over three years before even being named the Champion of Kirkwall, depite it being illegal for mages to live outside the Gallows, despite the templars being infamous for being strict and relentless to mages (led by Cullen and Meredith), and despite magic being considered the great shame and social suicide for every other noble family. 

Something the writers have acknowledged as a flaw.  Expanding the flaw to include elf nobles in a human city wouldn't help matters.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Urazz wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall exceeds the power, status, and honor, of being a mere nobleman. Their power rivals that of the Viscount or Knight Commander.

No it doesn't.  Being Champion means nothing.  You have next to no political power.  The seneschal wanted nothing to do with you.  The Knight commander orders you around.  And you have no claim to the throne.  The Champion of Kirkwall is a celebrity at best.

It does give you some power but not enough to rule.  I.E. if your Hawke is a mage it prevents you from being taken to the Circle.  It was why you had to hunt those mages in Act 3 as a mage Hawke even if you didn't want to.  Meredith would've revoked your title as Champion of Kirkwall if you refused to help defend Kirkwall from apostates and treated you like any other apostate.

hmm I'm Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall
Meredith:hey champion can you hunt down some apostates?
Hawke:I don't want to!
Meredith:Then i'll just revoke your title and throw you in the gallows.
Hawke:uh OK where do I start looking.
Yeah some power a mage Hawke is literaly at the mercy of Meredith if she could do that

[ianvillan]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.  The mage issue is central aspect of the story, a story Bioware wanted the protagonist to have a personal stake in to account for roleplaying differences.  Many players would care less about a few faceless mages dying, but when you include the protagonist's sister in that number?  It's a mechanism to ensure that Bioware doesn't have to assume you are playing a very altruistic character to get you to care and make the decision harder for the anti mage.  Not that it was always successful, and it was a bit clumsy at times, but that was the point.

Let´s say an elf goes to the Deep Roads and comes back rich. Just who is going to stop his/her rise? By that time s/he´s so badass that can beat to pulp the thugs other nobles send to kick him/her out of Hightown. Or maybe s/he uses the money to improve the Alienage, and whoever tried to stop it gets the same treatment.

And about the mages, there´s also people who took the chance to kill Bethany there, or sided with MEredith and only spared her, so it´s not that key factor. It´s about one´s morals, and that´s on who they are, not what their sister is.

So I don´t see any of those aspects to be the pillars the story is written around, much less preventing the PC from being a member of other race. Being a Cousland had much more impact on Origins than being human has on DA2.

A rise in wealth and a rise in social position are not the same thing.  Nothing stops the former, but the nobles would block the latter on prejudice alone.  Having more coin would change little by itself.  You still wouldn't get to the stepping stone between refugee and Champion the developers clearly wanted the nable estate to be.  I'd wager the nobles still wouldn't let the protagonist live in High Town after becoming champion.

You miss the point.  Without a connection, whether through being a mage or related to a mage, they would leave the character asking: Why on earth would I even be involved in this situation when I have no stake in it?  Clearly they didn't do enough since people are still asking that, but the sibling is a mitigating factor.  Tell me, why be involved with the conflict if the only concerned mage you know is Anders and you don't like him?

Being a Cousland had absolutely no impact on the story of Origins.  All it provided was some flavor dialogue options when you met Howe again.

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

[Heimdall]

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

[silentassassin264]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Who everyone knew about and did nothing to remove.  So what is going to stop an obscenely rich and famous explorer of the deep roads from getting a house in Hightown?  Absolutely nothing.  They might think of it as a scandal, like Merrill living with Hawke, but just like they couldn't remove Merrill from Hightown, they couldn't move an elf PC.  Especially an elf PC who is friends with the Captain of the Guard.