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[EpicBoot2daFace]

81 pages. Holy ****.

[ianvillan]

Rojahar wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

And Fenris spends his days, for years, drinking and brooding in his own filth.

not to mention dead bodies.

[Allan Schumacher]

Assuming there are, say, three different human background stories, couldn't the human PC in just one of those stories be replaced by an elf without incurring any great additional costs and resources?

I'm guessing the answer is no - camera issues due to height differences being one reason why - but, having read through Allan's posts, I'm still not sure I understand what any of the other reasons are.

There's going to have to be some level of writing differences otherwise the change is purely cosmetic and somewhat jarring in some cases. We could just say "bampf you're an elf" but without providing appropriate context within the game, you may get contradictory conversations (you're talking as though you're a human, or people are responding to you as though you're a human, based on the words you use) and other things like that.

If a human commoner background were replaced with a city elf background then obviously there would need to be all sorts of elven references put in to the game. But why would those references be more expensive to implement than references to the background of the human commoner?

It's because the change would be a bit more than just the references. In that there may be human focused dialogue that is still heard by ALL characters, regardless of background. I can think of a plot where this will probably be more prevalent, but unfortunately I don't know full details of it and even if I did it's not my place to discuss it anyways. Sucks I know, but hopefully it can provide some context for why it's not just about references to the background.

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Who everyone knew about and did nothing to remove.  So what is going to stop an obscenely rich and famous explorer of the deep roads from getting a house in Hightown?  Absolutely nothing.  They might think of it as a scandal, like Merrill living with Hawke, but just like they couldn't remove Merrill from Hightown, they couldn't move an elf PC.  Especially an elf PC who is friends with the Captain of the Guard.

A squatter is one thing, a brigand, a nuisance.

An elf thinking they can be on par with nobility by legitimately living next door in a fine house?  That they would consider at best an insult, at worst a threat.

A noble taking an elf as a lover would be a scandal, that isn't the same as an elf rising to their level or trying to.

[Vandicus]

Filament wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

81 pages. Holy ****.

You should see the romance threads.

Don't think they've gotten this long for DA3. This thread has exceded the former longest non-romance non-LI thread, the one about Blood Magic relevance. Sort've nice that BSN can go for 83 pages without completely derailing the topic or devolving into petty insults/flame wars. Not that this thread didn't have those, just that the thread hasn't been taken over by them.

[Gamemako]

marshalleck wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

MiSS Provencale wrote...

Hello to all! I am very pleased that the protagonist is human. Here, I just hope that for once the hero is female even though we already have the possibility to choose the sex.

I would like a gender-locked female character. They won't do it, but I'd like it.

Why wouldn't they? It worked for Bayonetta. 

I can only imagine the developers as they came up with that character. Ironic sexualization is one thing, but that entire game is one giant punchline.

Monica21 wrote...

I didn't dislike Hawke and I rather enjoy my DA2 playthroughs, but I will say that I wasn't entirely pleased with the character. I think s/he could have felt less like a character of Varric's (or BioWare's) and more like a result of my choices than s/he ended up being. I felt pigeon-holed into a certain style of Hawke (green, purple, red) and I didn't have to be, but the feeling was there nonetheless. I didn't particularly like way back when we first heard that Hawke ends up in Kirkwall because s/he is fleeing Lothering. What kind of hero flees? And maybe that's really the heart of any beefs I have with DA2; Hawke is an observer, not a hero.

Well said. The passivity of a semi-controlled hero is invariably unsatisfying.

That said, I disagree with your evaluation about characters who are not simply the hero. I believe it would be best to direct you to Planescape: Torment, where a protagonist with a nigh-unending background and a non-heroic story manage to be probably the single most fulfilling game ever designed. DA2 fails to give you purpose within the universe. Whether for selfish or noble reasons, the character (and by proxy, the player) must be motivated to move the action forward. DA2's disjointed story and underdeveloped characters leave the player wanting to just stop and let the Qunari take over Kirkwall.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Planescape: Torment you can assign attribute points, and it is probably my favourite RPG of all time.  It's why I contributed to Project Eternity.

I like this guy.

marshalleck wrote...

Wow, trading voiced dialogue and MP for another blank-stare wooden protagonist and pointless race options is a horrible idea. 

I'd gladly off multiplayer and detailed voicework for more quality game. There wasn't much voicework for TNO in P:T, you know. However, I don't much care about the race options and would rather that time go into making the core game better. Oh, and off multiplayer for a better core game.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's where things become even muddier. Something like multiplayer opens up additional potential revenue streams, so for some features it's possible to receive more funding than had that feature not been one put forth.

I will take that as a tacit admission that you plan to directly monetize DA3's multiplayer. Not that I'm complaining -- I have no problem whatsoever with ME3's model and with F2P in general.

[Heimdall]

Faerunner wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Living in high town itself is less important than the social rise that accompanies it.  A rise that is implausaible for an elf and only feasible through the merchant's guild for a dwarf.

No more implausable than for a known apostate to be able to live in Hightown for over three years before even being named the Champion of Kirkwall, depite it being illegal for mages to live outside the Gallows, despite the templars being infamous for being strict and relentless to mages (led by Cullen and Meredith), and despite magic being considered the great shame and social suicide for every other noble family. 

Something the writers have acknowledged as a flaw.  Expanding the flaw to include elf nobles in a human city wouldn't help matters.

And yet, by your own admission, the entire story revolves around Hawke's rise in social status as well as his/her direct connection to the mage/templar conflict. (Which is also false, as Bethany could very well die before the final conflict for a non-mage Hawke.) By being a mage, those two story elements are diametrically opposed, just based on the way the overall story is set up. Common people fear and despise magic and the templars are so strict that being rich shouldn't stop them, yet the game is all about how a mage person is able to obtain wealth and status.

The writers claimed non-humans wouldn't work based on the story, yet the story doesn't work for a Mage Hawke either. If it's already flawed, might well either re-write the story to work for all of society's dregs (as mages are held in about as much contempt as elves) or expand it to include other races since they're already making an exception for mages anyway, instead of adding insult to injury by saying, "the story only works for a human," when we can all see it doesn't.

Like I said, it's a flaw in the story.  Bethany's or Hawke's being a mage was also a mechanism to give a reason for pursuing that social rise, to make them harder for Templars to get to.  Presumably Hawke's being a mage was meant to be secretive, but they utterly failed at that.  I never said they did it right.  Besides, other noble families have magic in their blood if not in a family member that may or may not be in the circle.  A mage having status through family connection is not unheard of.

The story needs to be worked in such a way that Hawke's being a mage is more hidden to the outside world.  It's flawed but a human noble with magic can rise if careful.  It's a problem but it has nothing to do with the intractability of non-human's position within a human dominated society.

[Vandicus]

Gamemako wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's where things become even muddier. Something like multiplayer opens up additional potential revenue streams, so for some features it's possible to receive more funding than had that feature not been one put forth.

I will take that as a tacit admission that you plan to directly monetize DA3's multiplayer. Not that I'm complaining -- I have no problem whatsoever with ME3's model and with F2P in general.

I don't think Allan knows their plans exactly, or at least not for sure, as he mentions above he likewise cannot speak for the writers.

I personally do expect that EA would want them to monetize it(especially in light of ME3 MP's unexpectedly successful monetization system), and I wouldn't be bothered by a similar one. Just saying Allan's statements are not necessarily conclusive acknowledgement of monetization.

[I Like Cats And]

Boy, Bioware sure is taking the fan's input are't they

[Mims]

I think its obvious that adding additional races would take money and time. But it still feels ...concerning that that's the first thing bioware thinks to cut, when it was one of the more liked features of origin. And perhaps most rpgs.

I mean, look at project eternity, and how excited people got with adding races to the campaign. People want to play through a story. They want to feel like its 'theirs'. You can obviously still have that with a human centric story, but its one more block that you're going to have to go through. The story is going to have to be damn good for people to go, "ok, I see why it wouldn't work."

And by a lot of talk here, it went from story issues to money issues. So that's a little concerning in itself.

[silentassassin264]

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Who everyone knew about and did nothing to remove.  So what is going to stop an obscenely rich and famous explorer of the deep roads from getting a house in Hightown?  Absolutely nothing.  They might think of it as a scandal, like Merrill living with Hawke, but just like they couldn't remove Merrill from Hightown, they couldn't move an elf PC.  Especially an elf PC who is friends with the Captain of the Guard.

A squatter is one thing, a brigand, a nuisance.

An elf thinking they can be on par with nobility by legitimately living next door in a fine house?  That they would consider at best an insult, at worst a threat.

A noble taking an elf as a lover would be a scandal, that isn't the same as an elf rising to their level or trying to.

Well if Hawke is a noble and Merrill is with Hawke, Merrill is a noble.  She dresses in nice shiny finery.  Goes to noble parties with noble partner.  Raids the Viscounts chambers like...whatever.  She might as well be a noble and they know it, hence the scandal.

[Vandicus]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Who everyone knew about and did nothing to remove.  So what is going to stop an obscenely rich and famous explorer of the deep roads from getting a house in Hightown?  Absolutely nothing.  They might think of it as a scandal, like Merrill living with Hawke, but just like they couldn't remove Merrill from Hightown, they couldn't move an elf PC.  Especially an elf PC who is friends with the Captain of the Guard.

A squatter is one thing, a brigand, a nuisance.

An elf thinking they can be on par with nobility by legitimately living next door in a fine house?  That they would consider at best an insult, at worst a threat.

A noble taking an elf as a lover would be a scandal, that isn't the same as an elf rising to their level or trying to.

Well if Hawke is a noble and Merrill is with Hawke, Merrill is a noble.  She dresses in nice shiny finery.  Goes to noble parties with noble partner.  Raids the Viscounts chambers like...whatever.  She might as well be a noble and they know it, hence the scandal.

Wait, Hawke and Merril were married in the romance? Must've been sleeping for that part.

[marshalleck]

Gamemako wrote...

I'd gladly off multiplayer and detailed voicework for more quality game. There wasn't much voicework for TNO in P:T, you know.

There also weren't cinematic dialogue sequences ala Mass Effect and Dragon Age, so the text-dump dialogue window worked fine and encouraged characterization and roleplay. A dead-eyed, mute, expressionless protagonist in cinematic dialogue scenes where characters are supposed to seem...well...alive brings the entire sequence crashing down, and Bioware have been right to not return to that. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Who everyone knew about and did nothing to remove.  So what is going to stop an obscenely rich and famous explorer of the deep roads from getting a house in Hightown?  Absolutely nothing.  They might think of it as a scandal, like Merrill living with Hawke, but just like they couldn't remove Merrill from Hightown, they couldn't move an elf PC.  Especially an elf PC who is friends with the Captain of the Guard.

A squatter is one thing, a brigand, a nuisance.

An elf thinking they can be on par with nobility by legitimately living next door in a fine house?  That they would consider at best an insult, at worst a threat.

A noble taking an elf as a lover would be a scandal, that isn't the same as an elf rising to their level or trying to.

Well if Hawke is a noble and Merrill is with Hawke, Merrill is a noble.  She dresses in nice shiny finery.  Goes to noble parties with noble partner.  Raids the Viscounts chambers like...whatever.  She might as well be a noble and they know it, hence the scandal.

They aren't formally married as far as I know.  As such, the rest of the nobility probably veiw her as a mistress.  Since elves are apparently considered generally beautiful, I doubt it's such an uncommon thing among the nobility.  That Hawke makes no effort to hide dalliances with an elf, atleast I don't think s/he does, is what makes it a scandal.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Rawgrim]

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Fenris lives there for over 7 years.

[Heimdall]

Rawgrim wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Tell that to Bartran or Fenris both of whom lived in high town.

Bartran isn't an elf and Fenris is squatting in an abandoned house.

Fenris lives there for over 7 years.

And?

[silentassassin264]

Lord Aesir wrote...

They aren't formally married as far as I know.  As such, the rest of the nobility probably veiw her as a mistress.  That Hawke makes no effort to hide dalliances with an elf, atleast I don't think s/he does, is what makes it a scandal.

It wasn't the "daliances" with an elf.  I am pretty sure the nobles had no problem with being with elves in the blooming rose.  The scandal was having an elf living with you in your estate and not as a slave but as an lover (I believe I am paraphrasing the codex entry correctly anyway).

[Allan Schumacher]

I will take that as a tacit admission that you plan to directly monetize DA3's multiplayer. Not that I'm complaining -- I have no problem whatsoever with ME3's model and with F2P in general.

Take nothing as an admission of anything. MP can have a financial appeal for no other reason than it provides an additional avenue for friends to encourage friends to buy the game, as well as keeping the disc in the tray longer to mitigate supply of used copies, on top of, in some cases, being a feature that will help them decide to buy (whether or not it's a wash with those that boycott is something I don't know).

That said, I think we'd be silly to just ignore the model that ME3 uses since it's seen some success in its own right (and it's familiar).


Please don't read more into what I'm saying as it only discourages me from posting for fear that more stuff will be misinterpreted and taken with a greater degree of authenticity based upon said interpretations.

[Heimdall]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

They aren't formally married as far as I know.  As such, the rest of the nobility probably veiw her as a mistress.  That Hawke makes no effort to hide dalliances with an elf, atleast I don't think s/he does, is what makes it a scandal.

It wasn't the "daliances" with an elf.  I am pretty sure the nobles had no problem with being with elves in the blooming rose.  The scandal was having an elf living with you in your estate and not as a slave but as an lover (I believe I am paraphrasing the codex entry correctly anyway).

I'm fairly certain we're not disagreeing on this.

[Blessed Silence]

Meh, most posters commented on how I feel about it.

Though I enjoyed playing something outside of what I am IRL, if there is a varied amount of backgrounds to being a human that have some way of showing it (such as if I was a commoner but was treated poorly by rich peole) that would be a good thing.

Other than that, I like to play everything anyway (all race/class/background combos) before I choose one.