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Dragon Age 3 to use a human protagonist


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#2251
tmp7704

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AlexJK wrote...

Salaya wrote...

For those people arguing that there are great RPGs without race choice out there... what is the point with that?

They're trying to illustate that racial selection does not instantly and magically a great RPG make. Do you not think this is a valid counter argument to all the people saying "but more choices are always, categorically, better"?

Pointing out that a game can be good without wider species selection doesn't really counter the claim that a wider species selection --with everything else being presumably equal-- makes it better, especially for someone who was looking forward to this particular feature.

It can make a point that "a game can (still) be good without wider species selection" but i don't think anyone is disputing that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:43 .


#2252
Terrorize69

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tmp7704 wrote...

AlexJK wrote...

Salaya wrote...

For those people arguing that there are great RPGs without race choice out there... what is the point with that?

They're trying to illustate that racial selection does not instantly and magically a great RPG make. Do you not think this is a valid counter argument to all the people saying "but more choices are always, categorically, better"?

Pointing out that a game can be good without wider species selection doesn't really counter the claim that a wider species selection --with everything else being presumably equal-- makes it better, especially for someone who was looking forward to this particular feature.

It can make a point that "a game can (still) be good without wider species selection" but i don't think anyone is disputing that.

I'd say for every 1 game that has a good story with racial selection, someone can mention 10 without racial selection with great stories.

Nearly "all" the best RPGs have zero racial choices, heck a lot of them had 0 customization.

Even DAO, great story with racial selection BUT, the great story is the same story with all races, its not the races that make the stroy anything special, infact IMO the best racial story is the human noble female.

#2253
tmp7704

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Terrorize69 wrote...

I'd say for every 1 game that has a good story with racial selection, someone can mention 10 without racial selection with great stories.

Sure, but that still does nothing to address the original point. To use an analogy, that's like hearing someone say "strawberries and whipped cream are great" and telling them "i can name you ten fruits which taste great on their own".

edit: personally, i've found CE and dwarf stories much more compelling than the human noble revenge stuff, which felt extremely generic. It was in large part because they covered somewhat different themes and perspectives than said human noble.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:54 .


#2254
Rawgrim

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Terrorize69 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

AlexJK wrote...

Salaya wrote...

For those people arguing that there are great RPGs without race choice out there... what is the point with that?

They're trying to illustate that racial selection does not instantly and magically a great RPG make. Do you not think this is a valid counter argument to all the people saying "but more choices are always, categorically, better"?

Pointing out that a game can be good without wider species selection doesn't really counter the claim that a wider species selection --with everything else being presumably equal-- makes it better, especially for someone who was looking forward to this particular feature.

It can make a point that "a game can (still) be good without wider species selection" but i don't think anyone is disputing that.

I'd say for every 1 game that has a good story with racial selection, someone can mention 10 without racial selection with great stories.

Nearly "all" the best RPGs have zero racial choices, heck a lot of them had 0 customization.

Even DAO, great story with racial selection BUT, the great story is the same story with all races, its not the races that make the stroy anything special, infact IMO the best racial story is the human noble female.


Nearly "all" of them had no racial choice? Can`t have played that many of the famous\\good ones then.

The story is not the same for all the races. And yes, its the choice of making your own character, with different races and different starting points and motivations that DOES make it special. 

The human female noble origin story is exactly the same as the male one.

#2255
AlexJK

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alhamel94 wrote...

the problem with it is not the lack of race choice but the removal of race choice. if there was no race choice initially it would have been fine. I am also curious to see if they are actually going to incorporate dao and da2 in this game. because theres seriously no continuity, its hard to have a trilogy without continuity

What do you mean "removal"? There was never going to be racial choice in DA3. There was racial choice in Origins, but that's a *completely separate game*.

tmp7704 wrote...

Sure, but that still does nothing to address the original point. To use an analogy, that's like hearing someone say "strawberries and whipped cream are great" and telling them "i can name you ten fruits which taste great on their own".

No, it isn't. It's like hearing somebody say "strawberries are (always) better with whipped cream" and telling them "no, here are ten types of strawberry which do not come with whipped cream and (in my opinion of course) would not be improved by it."

#2256
xsamplexample

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they better pull this off correctly. if i get another DA2, then Ill give up on Bioware.

#2257
Allan Schumacher

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What do you mean "removal"? There was never going to be racial choice in DA3. There was racial choice in Origins, but that's a *completely separate game*.


The idea of removal is that they once had it in DAO, and not having the option in future games in the series stings more because they had a taste of what it was like to be those races and would like to explore them further.

#2258
Genshie

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


What do you mean "removal"? There was never going to be racial choice in DA3. There was racial choice in Origins, but that's a *completely separate game*.


The idea of removal is that they once had it in DAO, and not having the option in future games in the series stings more because they had a taste of what it was like to be those races and would like to explore them further.

As mentioned before though you guys have mentioned that racial selection could return in the franchise just not in DA3. (Which is fine) Also since there will be a multiplayer of some I am pretty sure that we are going to be playing as something other than human constantly. (something probably akin to ME3 race/class selection)

#2259
JuGonzo

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Human... AGAIN?!?

Goodbye, Dragon Age 3... forever!

#2260
SirGladiator

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I never found playing as an elf to be particularly interesting, but I did enjoy playing as a dwarf from time to time, because they're genuinely different, and their origin stories were pretty awesome. Obviously most people prefer to play as humans, but it was nice to have other options. Perhaps those options can return in a future game, or in DLC, or whatever. But I'm OK with playing as a human, so long as the rest of the game is awesome.

#2261
TMZuk

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Genshie wrote...
..............

As mentioned before though you guys have mentioned that racial selection could return in the franchise just not in DA3. (Which is fine) Also since there will be a multiplayer of some I am pretty sure that we are going to be playing as something other than human constantly. (something probably akin to ME3 race/class selection)


I and many others do not play multiplayer.

A vague promise about a possible non-human protagonist in future DA titles is not reassuring. It' s os far in the future it's irrelevant. If the franchise is to survive, DA3 need to be a succes. To be a succes it should sell a lot more then DA2 did.

Numbers speak for themselves, and Skyrim has sold more copies than DA:O, DA2, ME, ME2 and ME3 put together. That would seem to indicate that Bethesda understand some basic desires common in roleplayers that Bioware do not. Therefore, no matter the many other weaknesses in the TES games, the player is able to create excactly the character they like.

An old military proverb goes: Do not reinforce failure. It seems to me to be excactly what Bioware is doing.

#2262
NedPepper

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Huntress wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

A question:

If Bioware had decided your PC HAD to be an elf or a dwarf, how would you all feel about this?

Is it a case where you are still being restricted, or because so many of you are upset BECAUSE you like playing elves or dwarves, and would this be acceptable?

And if so, how would you respond to the people who like human protagonists?

I'm trying to understand the pulse of this argument, which right now seems to be slightly schizophrenic.

You'd have the same issue people wanting to use other races.



Even if Dragon Age 4 was a story about the Dalish trying to reclaim their past?  Would you want to play as a dwarf here?  Would it make any sense to play as a dwarf, you know, just because?


maybe playing as a dwarf bring more answers of how some of the dalish  got to live in a Dwarven city in the deep roads.. oh you probably didn't play witch hunt.. sorry.


Really?  That's all you got?  I'll take it my point was made and is being ignored because it's inconvient.

#2263
NedPepper

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Maria Caliban wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

A question:

If Bioware had decided your PC HAD to be an elf or a dwarf, how would you all feel about this?

I'd be fine with it.


Is it a case where you are still being restricted, or because so many of you are upset BECAUSE you like playing elves or dwarves, and would this be acceptable?

I have no idea what you mean by this.


And if so, how would you respond to the people who like human protagonists?

I don't respond to people's preferences, but what they say or do. If someone who liked a human protagonist said "I like human protagonists" I'd probably not say anything.


I'm trying to understand the pulse of this argument, which right now seems to be slightly schizophrenic.

Over a dozen different people are giving their opinion. You're trying to pretend as though they're all one person. There's nothing 'schizophrenic' about it.



Yes, because the Dragon 3 is lost to me, EAWare, and all of that rubbish that has filled up nearly a hundred pages makes such clear, well thought out opinions.  Or as Upsetting Shorts was trying to show, is the Origins or it the race selection?  Or is this just more sour grapes or the strange hive mind mentality that has been growing worse and worse from Dragon Age 2 to TOR to Mass Effect 3 and now to Dragon Age 3 where we basically have zero information.

I get people are upset.  And there are some very well thought out posts as to why.  And then there's everything else.  And because they keep speaking as a "consensus", I'd say it's schizophrenic.

#2264
KiwiQuiche

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I would be lying if I said I wasn't dissapointed...however, I'm glad they have origins for humans at least, rather than the same-old we got with Hawke. And considering the lovely variety in Origins, I hope the human start points will be just as interesting.

#2265
Allan Schumacher

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Numbers speak for themselves, and Skyrim has sold more copies than DA:O, DA2, ME, ME2 and ME3 put together. That would seem to indicate that Bethesda understand some basic desires common in roleplayers that Bioware do not. Therefore, no matter the many other weaknesses in the TES games, the player is able to create excactly the character they like.


I never like this argument, because Skyrim trounces the crap out of DAO too. So should we just drop everything we did in DAO too and do what Skyrim did? It seems to me that there's a lot more to the success of Skyrim than the contribution that Multiplayer may or may not have had on the sales.

#2266
WhiteThunder

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nedpepper wrote...
Yes, because the Dragon 3 is lost to me, EAWare, and all of that rubbish that has filled up nearly a hundred pages makes such clear, well thought out opinions.  Or as Upsetting Shorts was trying to show, is the Origins or it the race selection?  Or is this just more sour grapes or the strange hive mind mentality that has been growing worse and worse from Dragon Age 2 to TOR to Mass Effect 3 and now to Dragon Age 3 where we basically have zero information.


Well, I guess a lot of us think that the hive mind mentality isn't the only thing that has been getting worse and worse since Awakening was released.

#2267
Allan Schumacher

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I would be lying if I said I wasn't dissapointed...however, I'm glad they have origins for humans at least, rather than the same-old we got with Hawke. And considering the lovely variety in Origins, I hope the human start points will be just as interesting.


Just to be clear because I don't want to people to be getting excited and later disappointed by a misunderstanding, there isn't any plans for the backgrounds to be playable at this time (and I'd encourage people to not hold out hope that they might become so).

To refer to Gaider's post on the topic, however, the idea is for them to not just be in the vein of what Mass Effect did with their backgrounds either.

#2268
TheJediSaint

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I would be lying if I said I wasn't dissapointed...however, I'm glad they have origins for humans at least, rather than the same-old we got with Hawke. And considering the lovely variety in Origins, I hope the human start points will be just as interesting.


Just to be clear because I don't want to people to be getting excited and later disappointed by a misunderstanding, there isn't any plans for the backgrounds to be playable at this time (and I'd encourage people to not hold out hope that they might become so).

To refer to Gaider's post on the topic, however, the idea is for them to not just be in the vein of what Mass Effect did with their backgrounds either.


I was under the impression that different backgrounds would have different optional content associated with them. Basically you'd have a sidequests or chain of sidequests relating to the background that you chose.  Essentially choosing a sub-plot to add you your character's story through the main game.  

Of course, this is just speculation on my part, like almost everything involved with Dragon Age 3 at this point. =]

#2269
DreamwareStudio

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Numbers speak for themselves, and Skyrim has sold more copies than DA:O, DA2, ME, ME2 and ME3 put together. That would seem to indicate that Bethesda understand some basic desires common in roleplayers that Bioware do not. Therefore, no matter the many other weaknesses in the TES games, the player is able to create excactly the character they like.


I never like this argument, because Skyrim trounces the crap out of DAO too. So should we just drop everything we did in DAO too and do what Skyrim did? It seems to me that there's a lot more to the success of Skyrim than the contribution that Multiplayer may or may not have had on the sales.


I don't think that is what he means at all, to copy what Skyrim did. That would change nothing and cause EA to be an also ran. 

No, I think the argument is for EA to reassess their priorities and the direction they are taking with the DA series, specifically the way the series is being bent more towards action than role-playing, that another argument is incredible sales can be achieved with an RPG if the product stays true to its original inception and expands upon that rather than so drastically diverting from that.

At least, such would be my argument when using the Elder Scrolls and Bethesda as an example.

I think the fact a 180 was done with DA 2 still flummoxes a lot of people (including me). Why divert from a formula that reaped...what...something like 4.5 million copies? Isn't DA:O your best-selling ever, before and after the EA acquisition? Anyway, a game that improved upon DA:O's weaknesses and kept its strengths would have had momentum and done far better than DA 2, most likely would have outsold DA:O, and would not have fractured the fanbase. You'd still have the disenchanted, so to speak, but not near to this level and we would now be talking about a third in what should have been an amazing series.

In other words, using Bethesda and the Elder Scrolls as an example, we'd be on Morrowind with an even brighter future ahead of us due to Oblivion and Skyrim lurking on the horizon. Instead, a bunch of your loyal customers are still pissed and most no longer trust your direction. Rather than looking forward to the next release, they're anxious because they expect a DA 2 Redux travesty while hoping somehow, someway that a quality role-playing game worth its $60 price tag is produced and some of the luster to Bioware's name is restored.

You know, like what happened with DA:O. I still smile (now sadly) when I think of all those reviews that stated Bioware is back.

To be honest, no one who spent years waiting on Dragon Age's eventual release expected Bioware's return to traditional RPGs to be so tragically and nonsensically cut short. DA 2 was the gaming equivalent of spitting in our faces. The act showed us how little our patronage was appreciated. That was further underlined by how EA handled the ****storm that followed DA 2 and a seeming disregard towards the wishes expressed by the majority of your customers.

Modifié par google_calasade, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .


#2270
drkwaters

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Less customization? What's not to love! It'd be silly to think that we'd actually be able to create a completely customized character. I mean, Bioware took care of that in DA2, which is undeniably the greatest gaming achievement of all time. I hope we get less of these pesky choices for DA3.

#2271
marshalleck

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Nerevar-as wrote...

As long as the game doesn´t delve in issues such as Thedas speciesm, or lore about elves and dwarves, it would be OK. But there are themes that just ask for a non-human POV. Take the qunari invasion. For a human is just an attack, but what would a city elf think learning they´ll be treated according to their merits and not their ears?

They'd probably be thinking "oh crap I'm screwed, since all I do is lay about in the mud all day and leech scraps from our human masters. the qunari will use us all as garbage disposal!"

#2272
KiwiQuiche

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


I would be lying if I said I wasn't dissapointed...however, I'm glad they have origins for humans at least, rather than the same-old we got with Hawke. And considering the lovely variety in Origins, I hope the human start points will be just as interesting.


Just to be clear because I don't want to people to be getting excited and later disappointed by a misunderstanding, there isn't any plans for the backgrounds to be playable at this time (and I'd encourage people to not hold out hope that they might become so).

To refer to Gaider's post on the topic, however, the idea is for them to not just be in the vein of what Mass Effect did with their backgrounds either.


I was aware of them not being playable, but they will have some affect on the main story line, right? Like a bigger version of the minimal one like Shepard's background in ME1? Because I did love that quest where you spoke and comforted (if you chose to) a fellow survivor of Mindoir if you were a Colonist.

#2273
Heimdall

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TMZuk wrote...
That would seem to indicate that Bethesda understand some basic desires common in roleplayers that Bioware do not.

I wouldn't say that.  I would think the much more real time combat in skyrim would appeal much more to action gamers than any Dragon Age game.  I also seriously doubt racial choice, a choice that has little if any impact in Skyrim beyond the cosmetic and a little bit of dialogue, was much of a factor.

#2274
TheRealJayDee

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google_calasade wrote...

flummoxes


I learned a new word today! Image IPB

#2275
TheJediSaint

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Lord Aesir wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
That would seem to indicate that Bethesda understand some basic desires common in roleplayers that Bioware do not.

I wouldn't say that.  I would think the much more real time combat in skyrim would appeal much more to action gamers than any Dragon Age game.  I also seriously doubt racial choice, a choice that has little if any impact in Skyrim beyond the cosmetic and a little bit of dialogue, was much of a factor.


Espeically since Syrim is played mostly in the first-person, you don't spend much time actually seeing your character.