3855 réponses à ce sujet

[Harle Cerulean]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I love the dwarves of Dragon Age - not because they have beards and are short and robust.

I love them because of the culture designed for them. I find it familiar (underground - "The Stone" - etc) while also being very fresh.

I seriously doubt most elf players have a passion for playing oppressed people - instead, I think most people pick elf for the "skinny/pretty" cliche.

Of course.  People would only play the race you don't care about for physical appearances, because obviously if you don't care for them, no one does, right?

[JuGonzo]

marshalleck wrote...

That's the point. Despite the numerous non-human origins available, the human origins were the ones played by a vast majority. Bioware are obviously keenly aware of this metric (which they publicly announced themselves) and have decided that spending so much time working on content that will appeal to such a small and vocal minority isn't really worth the cost of using those zots elsewhere on content for everyone.

You know, I was wondering...

Probably few players made they characters bald or with green eyes or skin tanned...

Shall we remove these options from the customization too? 

Maybe they discovery a vast majority prefers to play as a mage. Let's forget about thieves and warriors, too.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Does this sound to anyone else like Mile himself is annoyed with the decision?

twitter.com/Mike_Laidlaw/status/260110657247117313

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:45 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

JuGonzo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

That's the point. Despite the numerous non-human origins available, the human origins were the ones played by a vast majority. Bioware are obviously keenly aware of this metric (which they publicly announced themselves) and have decided that spending so much time working on content that will appeal to such a small and vocal minority isn't really worth the cost of using those zots elsewhere on content for everyone.

You know, I was wondering...

Probably few players made they characters bald or with green eyes or skin tanned...

Shall we remove these options from the customization too? 

Maybe they discovery a vast majority prefers to play as a mage. Let's forget about thieves and warriors, too.

And there you have it - I've a shaved head and make all my chracters bald because I relate with it - the whole point in games such as DA is that we the player decide.

In restricting our choices Bioware are missing the point of the game in the first place.

[In Exile]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Does this sound to anyone else like Mile himself is annoyed with the decision?

twitter.com/Mike_Laidlaw/status/260110657247117313

I'm pretty sure he's talk about the fan reaction.

[ianvillan]

JuGonzo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

That's the point. Despite the numerous non-human origins available, the human origins were the ones played by a vast majority. Bioware are obviously keenly aware of this metric (which they publicly announced themselves) and have decided that spending so much time working on content that will appeal to such a small and vocal minority isn't really worth the cost of using those zots elsewhere on content for everyone.

You know, I was wondering...

Probably few players made they characters bald or with green eyes or skin tanned...

Shall we remove these options from the customization too? 

Maybe they discovery a vast majority prefers to play as a mage. Let's forget about thieves and warriors, too.

Exactly if you are going to use metrics then you should use all of them. Bioware can't come out and say they are following the metrics when they pick and choose which metrics to follow.

Bioware also said they used metrics to decide human only for DA2 until it was shown that they had decided on human only before Origins was released.

[Harle Cerulean]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Does this sound to anyone else like Mile himself is annoyed with the decision?

twitter.com/Mike_Laidlaw/status/260110657247117313

I'd guess that if he's annoyed at anything, it's people who keep tweeting him about races in DA3.  

[marshalleck]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I love the dwarves of Dragon Age - not because they have beards and are short and robust.

I love them because of the culture designed for them. I find it familiar (underground - "The Stone" - etc) while also being very fresh.

I seriously doubt most elf players have a passion for playing oppressed people - instead, I think most people pick elf for the "skinny/pretty" cliche.

Of course.  People would only play the race you don't care about for physical appearances, because obviously if you don't care for them, no one does, right?

In the case of elves and dwarves in DAO, that is basically true, and Bioware have said it themselves when they released their gameplay statistics. Correlation not being causation etc. etc., you can't deny there is a strong correlation between elves and dwarves being statistically the least played races in DAO, and the emphasis on a human protagonist in DA2 and now DA3. 

As for the silly notion of getting rid of a least played class, thats easily dismissed by stating the simple observation that DA gameplay is founded on a trinity of character archetypes and if you get rid of one, the whole thing has to be redesigned. Bioware are motivated here by working smarter, not harder.

[Harle Cerulean]

marshalleck wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I love the dwarves of Dragon Age - not because they have beards and are short and robust.

I love them because of the culture designed for them. I find it familiar (underground - "The Stone" - etc) while also being very fresh.

I seriously doubt most elf players have a passion for playing oppressed people - instead, I think most people pick elf for the "skinny/pretty" cliche.

Of course.  People would only play the race you don't care about for physical appearances, because obviously if you don't care for them, no one does, right?

In the case of elves and dwarves in DAO, that is basically true, and Bioware have said it themselves when they released their gameplay statistics. Correlation not being causation etc. etc., you can't deny there is a strong correlation between elves and dwarves being statistically the least played races in DAO, and the emphasis on a human protagonist in DA2 and now DA3. 

As for the silly notion of getting rid of a least played class, thats easily dismissed by stating the simple observation that DA gameplay is founded on a trinity of character archetypes and if you get rid of one, the whole thing has to be redesigned. Bioware are motivated here by working smarter, not harder.

I . . . am entirely unsure why you quoted me to say this?

[marshalleck]

Because I'm devious like that.

[In Exile]

ianvillan wrote...
Bioware also said they used metrics to decide human only for DA2 until it was shown that they had decided on human only before Origins was released.

That doesn't mean they didn't use the metric. They could as easily have made a design choice contingent on data (or read to be disproved) and if 95% of players picked dwarves, suddenly you'd see them reworking Hawke from scratch.

[JuGonzo]

marshalleck wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I love the dwarves of Dragon Age - not because they have beards and are short and robust.

I love them because of the culture designed for them. I find it familiar (underground - "The Stone" - etc) while also being very fresh.

I seriously doubt most elf players have a passion for playing oppressed people - instead, I think most people pick elf for the "skinny/pretty" cliche.

Of course.  People would only play the race you don't care about for physical appearances, because obviously if you don't care for them, no one does, right?

In the case of elves and dwarves in DAO, that is basically true, and Bioware have said it themselves when they released their gameplay statistics. Correlation not being causation etc. etc., you can't deny there is a strong correlation between elves and dwarves being statistically the least played races in DAO, and the emphasis on a human protagonist in DA2 and now DA3. 

As for the silly notion of getting rid of a least played class, thats easily dismissed by stating the simple observation that DA gameplay is founded on a trinity of character archetypes and if you get rid of one, the whole thing has to be redesigned. Bioware are motivated here by working smarter, not harder.

And why not to keep the trinity elf - human - dwarf?

New point: maybe they could work a little harder with darves ans elves to make them more "acce´´ptable" instead of remove them.

You know... play as a thief DA2 is a pain in the ass! You are always a swashbuckler! So, maybe they will remove the thieves because anyone liked them. This is my point.

[LilyasAvalon]

It's not a big big issue, but at the same time, it's very disappointing. It was one of my favourite features of DA:O along with the multiple origins, as the world changed in small ways, through character interaction, choices and development because of whom my character was.

I really still hope multiple origins or hopefully a silent protagionist are still on the table. If not, then it is really going to make me rethink about preordering this game.

I fell in love with Dragon Age Origins because it was less about the protagionist and more about the world of Thedas itself. Dragon Age 2 changed that by essentially trying to make Hawke into this Shepard gone medieval, which was a complete turn off for me, and I do think it's one of the reasons Dragon Age 2 bombed so baddly.

I really don't want Hawke 2.0, Bioware.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:08 .

[marshalleck]

JuGonzo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I love the dwarves of Dragon Age - not because they have beards and are short and robust.

I love them because of the culture designed for them. I find it familiar (underground - "The Stone" - etc) while also being very fresh.

I seriously doubt most elf players have a passion for playing oppressed people - instead, I think most people pick elf for the "skinny/pretty" cliche.

Of course.  People would only play the race you don't care about for physical appearances, because obviously if you don't care for them, no one does, right?

In the case of elves and dwarves in DAO, that is basically true, and Bioware have said it themselves when they released their gameplay statistics. Correlation not being causation etc. etc., you can't deny there is a strong correlation between elves and dwarves being statistically the least played races in DAO, and the emphasis on a human protagonist in DA2 and now DA3. 

As for the silly notion of getting rid of a least played class, thats easily dismissed by stating the simple observation that DA gameplay is founded on a trinity of character archetypes and if you get rid of one, the whole thing has to be redesigned. Bioware are motivated here by working smarter, not harder.

And why not to keep the trinity elf - human - dwarf?

New point: maybe they could work a little harder with darves ans elves to make them more "acce´´ptable" instead of remove them.

You know... play as a thief DA2 is a pain in the ass! You are always a swashbuckler! So, maybe they will remove the thieves because anyone liked them. This is my point.

Because making only a human protagonist doesn't break the game. It's entirely dictated by the story the writers want to tell, which is probably in turn equally dictated by A) what aspects of the world the writers find interesting, and what aspects of the world metrics show gamers to be interested in. 

As for "why remove them entirely instead of reworking them" I don't know. It's a good question. Maybe because of the overwhelming majority of players going for humans in DAO (something like >80%) but it's a question I often ask about Bioware: why do they use a chainsaw when a scalpel is what's needed?

[In Exile]

LilyasAvalon wrote...
I really still hope multiple origins or hopefully a silent protagionist are still on the table. If not, then it is really going to make me rethink about preordering this game.

A silent protagonist was never on the table. There are multiple backgrounds, but origins aren't playable.

[dheer]

marshalleck wrote...

dheer wrote...
How much of that margain was an actual choice of human or was inflated because it was the default option? I don't think we'll ever really know and it makes this number pretty pointless to keep going back to. There's a lot of people that will play the default no matter what it is because they don't want to bother customizing their character and want to get into the game.

And how exactly is that an argument for creating more options if there are a lot of people who will just ignore them and play whatever selection the cursor defaults to? If anything, it supports Bioware's decision to focus on integrating one protagonist into the game. 

It's not an argument for or against anything. Just pointing out the number is meaningless as proof of how unpopular the other races were. It doesn't support bioware's decision in any way.

[SpunkyMonkey]

In Exile wrote...

A silent protagonist was never on the table. There are multiple backgrounds, but origins aren't playable.

Guess I best expect that we will be able to fly round the world on a dragon called Normand, and that our previous backgrounds include Inquisitor, Infiltrator, Sentinal and Adept.

Yay for "Call of Mass Age"

*facepalm*

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:20 .

[In Exile]

dheer wrote...
It's not an argument for or against anything. Just pointing out the number is meaningless as proof of how unpopular the other races were. It doesn't support bioware's decision in any way.

Maybe it would make a difference if the elf was the default - in that an elf is not that different from baseline. But I'd wager that even if you had a dwarf as the default, it wouldn't make that big of a difference, because, at the end of the day, a lot of people might not mind being short and lankier (at least some gamers are) but dwarves are really oustide our aesthetic mean.

[JuGonzo]

marshalleck wrote...

As for "why remove them entirely instead of reworking them" I don't know. It's a good question. Maybe because of the overwhelming majority of players going for humans in DAO (something like >80%) but it's a question I often ask about Bioware: why do they use a chainsaw when a scalpel is what's needed?

"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

First they ignore 10% fans... and more 5%... and more... 7%...


... or maybe they could stop pretending they care about what fans think and they just want to write THEIR story ("Alistar is he King. Period." something like that) 

Modifié par JuGonzo, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:21 .

[marshalleck]

@dheer: It's definitely not meaningless, unless you can somehow demonstrate that the method for tracking metrics was flawed, which would cause the statistic to come into question. Otherwise it is simply an unvarnished fact (insomuch as it's possible to refer to data points as "facts") about how gamers played DAO.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:22 .

[In Exile]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Yay for Call of Mass Age

Dragon Effect. That was decided back when Hawke was announced.

[SpunkyMonkey]

In Exile wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Yay for Call of Mass Age

Dragon Effect. That was decided back when Hawke was announced.

Yup!!!

[marshalleck]

JuGonzo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

As for "why remove them entirely instead of reworking them" I don't know. It's a good question. Maybe because of the overwhelming majority of players going for humans in DAO (something like >80%) but it's a question I often ask about Bioware: why do they use a chainsaw when a scalpel is what's needed?

"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

First they ignore 10% fans... and more 5%... and more... 7%...


... or maybe they could stop pretending they care about what fans think and they just want to write THEIR story ("Alistar is he King. Period." something like that) 

let it not be said that I don't sympathize with you; I do. Join me in this thread. 
http://social.biowar.../index/14596117

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:21 .

[In Exile]

JuGonzo wrote...
"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

Not really. Designers have to guess want their consumers want. Metrics are just more ways of gathering feedback. Like focus groups, i.e., myopic, but they best they have.

When you're in the business of selling a product, you don't get to have the luxury of doing whatever.

[LilyasAvalon]

In Exile wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...
I really still hope multiple origins or hopefully a silent protagionist are still on the table. If not, then it is really going to make me rethink about preordering this game.

A silent protagonist was never on the table. There are multiple backgrounds, but origins aren't playable.

Silent protagionist isn't that big a deal either to be honest, but it gets... boring with the same character with different looks having the same voice and I don't have a lot of faith that Bioware will have the time or money to impliment multiple voice options.

*Sigh* Oh well, these backgrounds better be ****ing diverse and good.