3855 réponses à ce sujet

[dheer]

marshalleck wrote...
@dheer: It's definitely not meaningless, unless you can somehow demonstrate that the method for tracking metrics was flawed, which would cause the statistic to come into question. Otherwise it is simply an unvarnished fact (insomuch as it's possible to refer to data points as "facts") about how gamers played DAO.

It was flawed. Human was the default choice. If no race was selected when you went to start a new game, it would be fine. As is, there is no way for us or bioware to seperate which people picked human because they wanted it and who picked it because it was the default. All we know is a smaller percentage went out of thier way to select an elf or dwarf when creating their character.

[Welsh Inferno]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Silent protagionist isn't that big a deal either to be honest, but it gets... boring with the same character with different looks having the same voice and I don't have a lot of faith that Bioware will have the time or money to impliment multiple voice options.

*Sigh* Oh well, these backgrounds better be ****ing diverse and good.

I expect them to have as much impact as the backgrounds did in Mass Effect. 

So practically pointless.

[JuGonzo]

marshalleck wrote...

JuGonzo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

As for "why remove them entirely instead of reworking them" I don't know. It's a good question. Maybe because of the overwhelming majority of players going for humans in DAO (something like >80%) but it's a question I often ask about Bioware: why do they use a chainsaw when a scalpel is what's needed?

"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

First they ignore 10% fans... and more 5%... and more... 7%...


... or maybe they could stop pretending they care about what fans think and they just want to write THEIR story ("Alistar is he King. Period." something like that) 

let it not be said that I don't sympathize with you; I do. Join me in this thread. 
http://social.biowar.../index/14596117

*sigh* I'm afraid is a meaningless effort. 

They already decided, no? (perhaps n 2009...). They want a "strong" story - one protagonista - our choices don't matter at all... just one end.

Do you want to play as an elf? Get Zelda.

Do you want to play as a dwarf? Get... err...  

[AlexJK]

dheer wrote...

Human was the default choice. If no race was selected when you went to start a new game, it would be fine. As is, there is no way for us or bioware to seperate which people picked human because they wanted it and who picked it because it was the default. All we know is a smaller percentage went out of thier way to select an elf or dwarf when creating their character.

That doesn't actually change the statistic. So instead of saying "90% of players chose human" we now say "90% of players chose human, or didn't care enough to look at what they were choosing".

Either way, doesn't change the point.

Just sayin'.

[marshalleck]

Exactly Alex, thank you. That was my reasoning when I initially engaged dheer on the subject.

[nightscrawl]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And if you think Skyrim is like an mmo I have to question if you've played many.

It depends on what you prefer to do in an MMO. In WoW for example there is a LOT of single player content. I can easily see the comparison to Skyrim's SP features of exploration, quests, crafting and so on.

The majority of my time in WoW is spent doing stuff alone. I run the occasional dungeon and do a raid with my guild, but that's it. I quest, do dailies, level alts, and go solo old raids for kicks and vanity items.

[JuGonzo]

In Exile wrote...

JuGonzo wrote...
"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

Not really. Designers have to guess want their consumers want. Metrics are just more ways of gathering feedback. Like focus groups, i.e., myopic, but they best they have.

When you're in the business of selling a product, you don't get to have the luxury of doing whatever.

Wrong. It's a common-sense.

May I quote Steve Jobs, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and Warren Buffet here?

 

[LilyasAvalon]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Silent protagionist isn't that big a deal either to be honest, but it gets... boring with the same character with different looks having the same voice and I don't have a lot of faith that Bioware will have the time or money to impliment multiple voice options.

*Sigh* Oh well, these backgrounds better be ****ing diverse and good.

I expect them to have as much impact as the backgrounds did in Mass Effect. 

So practically pointless.

I'm going to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt until at least a demo or game footage comes out... but yeah, this game is already beginning to have a sour taste in my mouth.

[Fast Jimmy]

JuGonzo wrote...

In Exile wrote...

JuGonzo wrote...
"Metrics" again, I'm afraid.

It's a dangerous way.

Not really. Designers have to guess want their consumers want. Metrics are just more ways of gathering feedback. Like focus groups, i.e., myopic, but they best they have.

When you're in the business of selling a product, you don't get to have the luxury of doing whatever.

Wrong. It's a common-sense.

May I quote Steve Jobs, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and Warren Buffet here?

Yes, you may. But only because you asked so nicely. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:37 .

[In Exile]

JuGonzo wrote...
Wrong. It's a common-sense.

May I quote Steve Jobs, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and Warren Buffet here?

I ... do you know what each of these people does for a living? Like, do you know what Buffet is a invesmtnet/insurance guy?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I just don't get the reply.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Silent protagionist isn't that big a deal either to be honest, but it gets... boring with the same character with different looks having the same voice and I don't have a lot of faith that Bioware will have the time or money to impliment multiple voice options.

*Sigh* Oh well, these backgrounds better be ****ing diverse and good.

I expect them to have as much impact as the backgrounds did in Mass Effect. 

So practically pointless.

I'm going to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt until at least a demo or game footage comes out... but yeah, this game is already beginning to have a sour taste in my mouth.

It's turning into EVERYTHING DA:O wasn't. I want:

A mute protagonist

Races to choose from

Non-DA:2 combat

Non-DA:2 Art Style

Character Origins

etc.....

It's not as if Bioware are ignoring 1 or 2 of them, they are downright 100% going against all of them. I don't see why anyone who wants the above would even consider purchasing such a game if it's not what they want?

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[In Exile]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
It's not as if Bioware are ignoring 1 or 2 of them, they are downright 100% going against all of them.

It's pretty obvious that Bioware's taken a principled stand on VO, so if a mute protagonist is what you want, I can't imagine that Bioware hasn't made it 300% clear that they aren't doing that.

Beyond that, if you want to turn this into a debate on what made DA:O great, we can have that. Because I'm 100% behind the position that it wasn't race or the silent PC.

Now, the origins? Sure. I think Bioware's making a mistake by not including them. But that's (IMO) their first real design error vs. design choice.

[marshalleck]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It's turning into EVERYTHING DA:O wasn't. I want:

A mute protagonist

Races to choose from

Non-DA:2 combat

Non-DA:2 Art Style

Character Origins

etc.....

It's not as if Bioware are ignoring 1 or 2 of them, they are downright 100% going against all of them. I don't see why anyone who wants the above would even consider purchasing such a game if it's not what they want?

It's really odd that Bioware don't appear to be looking more closely at why DAO was so well received (and it was). It's like they won't be happy with any gameplay formula until it nets them 10 million copies sold right out of the gate, instead of utilizing an ongoing process of refinement to build a solid foundation and positive word of mouth--which I know in my case at least, informs and guides more of my video game purchases than any amount of marketing or press.

If there aren't 6 million copies sold on day one the design is considered a failure and they start from scratch. I don't know how that makes any kind of sense, but maybe people with degrees in business, project management and marketing know something I don't. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:45 .

[AlexJK]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I'm going to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt [... but] this game is already beginning to have a sour taste in my mouth.

Bit of a contradiction? Do you know what "benefit of the doubt" means?

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

It's not as if Bioware are ignoring 1 or 2 of them, they are downright 100% going against all of them. I don't see why anyone who wants the above would even consider purchasing such a game if it's not what they want?

They wouldn't, I don't think that point is in contention. It's a very small group though.

Modifié par AlexJK, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:45 .

[dheer]

AlexJK wrote...
That doesn't actually change the statistic. So instead of saying "90% of players chose human" we now say "90% of players chose human, or didn't care enough to look at what they were choosing".

Either way, doesn't change the point.

Just sayin'.

It doesn't change the number, of course. However, it does change the context in which it can be used. Around these parts it's referred to as some type of truth hammer that people can thrown down about how much more popular humans are than the other two but it's an inflated number. We don't know how much more popular they are and we'll never really know. We can guess at it and in my case I'd bet humans would still be the most popular race chosen but not by such a wide margin.

Modifié par dheer, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
It's not as if Bioware are ignoring 1 or 2 of them, they are downright 100% going against all of them.

It's pretty obvious that Bioware's taken a principled stand on VO, so if a mute protagonist is what you want, I can't imagine that Bioware hasn't made it 300% clear that they aren't doing that.

Beyond that, if you want to turn this into a debate on what made DA:O great, we can have that. Because I'm 100% behind the position that it wasn't race or the silent PC.

Now, the origins? Sure. I think Bioware's making a mistake by not including them. But that's (IMO) their first real design error vs. design choice.

The backgrounds they've stated will happen in DA3 may compete with Origins in their depth (although they are unplayable, so I'd be surprised to see if they really can do that). 

And companion customization with armor and equipment has been announced, although it doesn't really affect appearance as deeply as Origins did... but that's not really the point, for me personally. I don't care that if I equip Plate Mail +1 on one character, it looks different than if I equipped it on another, as long as it gives the stat bonuses. But I suppose I can see why people are against it.

So, character customization is a bit of a middle of the road, racial choices are scrapped (but with a background caveat) and dialogue options will remain similar to what was presented in DA2, with some work being done to improve the system.

All either heavily based in the DA2 design idealogue or erring more on the DA2 design than the DA:O. I have yet to see one idea that fans can say "this is from DA:O!"

[In Exile]

marshalleck wrote...

It's really odd that Bioware don't appear to be looking more closely at why DAO was so well received (and it was). It's like they won't be happy with any gameplay formula until it nets them 10 million copies sold right out of the gate, instead of utilizing an ongoing process of refinement to build a solid foundation and positive word of mouth--which I know in my case at least, informs and guides more of my video game purchases than any amount of marketing or press.

Well, see, I find this really funny. Mostly, becuase Bioware really does seem to take a lot of principled stances on design issues. They just don't go the way (or many) of their fans want.

And the interpretation there isn't, ah, Bioware is so dedicated! They'll sacrifice money to make the game they want. It's, EAware, you've cheated me for the last time!

Bioware clearly wants to make cinematic (quasi) action-RPGs. That's been it since KoTOR, and we're getting close to a decade of the same type of game. I'm not sure what else the company can do to prove to its fans that it has defined it's scope, and scope isn't set by a game released 14 years ago (BG).

[JuGonzo]

In Exile wrote...

JuGonzo wrote...
Wrong. It's a common-sense.

May I quote Steve Jobs, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and Warren Buffet here?

I ... do you know what each of these people does for a living? Like, do you know what Buffet is a invesmtnet/insurance guy?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I just don't get the reply.

I know.

"the customer is always right"? yeah... Steve Jobs made iPad thinking about this. 

[marshalleck]

@dheer: You can be suspicious about it all you want, but unless you have other data that's more quantitatively and qualitatively useful, it's likely the most supportable data Bioware have to go on (augmented by critic/user reviews, press articles, social network analysis, BSN forum posts, focus groups, etc.)

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[TheJediSaint]

JuGonzo wrote...

In Exile wrote...

JuGonzo wrote...
Wrong. It's a common-sense.

May I quote Steve Jobs, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore and Warren Buffet here?

I ... do you know what each of these people does for a living? Like, do you know what Buffet is a invesmtnet/insurance guy?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I just don't get the reply.

I know.

"the customer is always right"? yeah... Steve Jobs made iPad thinking about this. 

The problem is that none of the people mentioned are game developers.

[Maria Caliban]

Marshalleck,

BioWare is using an 'ongoing process of refinement.' But it will be refining DA II, not DA:O.

It's going to have DA II human only, but will have backgrounds to make it feel less like a pre-gen hero.
It's going to have DA II iconic armor, but you'll be able to switch out armor on your companions and there will be a visual change.

The levels will be larger and more varied. Environments and characters will be more detailed. Other stuffs that would be rumor at this point.

They're making DA II 'but better.' Which is refinement, just not of the game you prefer.

[marshalleck]

In Exile wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's really odd that Bioware don't appear to be looking more closely at why DAO was so well received (and it was). It's like they won't be happy with any gameplay formula until it nets them 10 million copies sold right out of the gate, instead of utilizing an ongoing process of refinement to build a solid foundation and positive word of mouth--which I know in my case at least, informs and guides more of my video game purchases than any amount of marketing or press.

Well, see, I find this really funny. Mostly, becuase Bioware really does seem to take a lot of principled stances on design issues. They just don't go the way (or many) of their fans want.

And the interpretation there isn't, ah, Bioware is so dedicated! They'll sacrifice money to make the game they want. It's, EAware, you've cheated me for the last time!

Bioware clearly wants to make cinematic (quasi) action-RPGs. That's been it since KoTOR, and we're getting close to a decade of the same type of game. I'm not sure what else the company can do to prove to its fans that it has defined it's scope, and scope isn't set by a game released 14 years ago (BG).

I was actually thinking more about the abrupt transition from Mass Effect -> Mass Effect 2 and DAO -> DA2 than that from Baldur's Gate to the their more modern titles. This also goes back to an earlier comment I made about their predilection for utilizing chainsaws instead of scalpels. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:55 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
The backgrounds they've stated will happen in DA3 may compete with Origins in their depth (although they are unplayable, so I'd be surprised to see if they really can do that).

What I would hope is that they budget for origins (i.e., the same content as DA:O's origins) but have them as quests in the mid-late game. So it would be like starting DA:O at Ostagar, but then getting lots of unique content when you get back to the Circle if you are a mage PC.

And companion customization with armor and equipment has been announced, although it doesn't really affect appearance as deeply as Origins did... but that's not really the point, for me personally. I don't care that if I equip Plate Mail +1 on one character, it looks different than if I equipped it on another, as long as it gives the stat bonuses. But I suppose I can see why people are against it.

We need to see how that plays out before we can say if it's like DA:O or not.

All either heavily based in the DA2 design idealogue or erring more on the DA2 design than the DA:O. I have yet to see one idea that fans can say "this is from DA:O!"

To me it seems that the PC customization is richer but still heavily influenced by DA2 (at least, as proposed), the NPC customization is proposed to be a middle of the road thing (i.e., we freely pick their stats, their apperance changes, but it's somewhat iconic), though personally I think it falls quite close to DA:O, and we haven't heard anything about:

• Combat
• Exploration
• Quest Design
• Choices
• Epic Plot

[Maria Caliban]

*cough*

[Maria Caliban]

*double cough*

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:55 .