130 réponses à ce sujet

[Caiden012]

Vicious wrote...

 That isn't a wheel issue.  It's a "you can talk to the companions whenever you want" issue.

Every wheel discussion boils down to this. 

I am not going to talk about limited companion conversations that is a whole different topic. I just want to talk about peoples opinions on the wheel.

[upsettingshorts]

Caiden012 wrote...

So wait. You are comparing what the wheel CAN do to what DA:O tree DID do? So that means the wheel has a limit?

No, let me break this down.

What the DAO list allowed:  6 options at one time.
What the DA2 wheel allows:  10 options at one time, up to 5 investigate and 5 decision.
What the DA2 wheel typically provided:  6 options at one time.

Therefore the argument that the list in DAO afforded more options than the wheel in DA2 is false.  

Caiden012 wrote...

I am sure that they can add more slots to the wheel but I don't see any structural way that the tree is limited.

You're right in that conceptually, there's no restriction on a list.  There's a Planescape Torment screenshot floating around with over a dozen options.  But DA:O didn't do that, it had a hard-coded limit of six. So arguing that there was a loss of options when switching from DAO's list to DA2's wheel doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

When there's a valid point to be made about loss of dialogue control in DA2, it is almost always about personality tracking (not a wheel issue), auto dialogue (not a wheel issue), the unpredictable nature of paraphrases (not a wheel issue), the voiced protagonist and its implications (not a wheel issue), or opportunities to talk to companions being more restricted (not a wheel issue).

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 08:09 .

[Caiden012]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

So wait. You are comparing what the wheel CAN do to what DA:O tree DID do? So that means the wheel has a limit?

No, let me break this down.

What the DAO list allowed:  6 options at one time.
What the DA2 wheel allows:  10 options at one time, up to 5 investigate and 5 decision.
What the DA2 wheel typically provided:  6 options at one time.

Therefore the argument that the list in DAO afforded more options than the wheel in DA2 is false.  

Caiden012 wrote...

I am sure that they can add more slots to the wheel but I don't see any structural way that the tree is limited.

You're right in that conceptually, there's no restriction on a list.  There's a Planescape Torment screenshot floating around with over a dozen options.  But DA:O didn't do that, it had a hard-coded limit of six. So arguing that there was a loss of options when switching from DAO's list[b] to [b]DA2's wheel doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 

When there's a point to be made about loss of dialogue choice in DA2, it is almost always about personality tracking (not a wheel issue), auto dialogue (not a wheel issue), or opportunities to talk to companions being more restricted (not a wheel issue).

My problem is that you are comparing different things. I terms of what the two DID do they gave about 6 options. But in terms of what they CAN do, a tree fashion seems about limitless where a wheel structurally has limits. But the point is that I don't want to sit here and try to prove facts about how both work structurally and which is best. I just want to hear peoples opinions.

[upsettingshorts]

Caiden012 wrote...

My problem is that you are comparing different things. I terms of what the two DID do they gave about 6 options. But in terms of what they CAN do, a tree fashion seems about limitless where a wheel structurally has limits. But the point is that I don't want to sit here and try to prove facts about how both work structurally and which is best. I just want to hear peoples opinions.

If you're saying that you'd prefer a long list not limited by the structural issues of the wheel that also isn't restricted by DAO's hardcoded limit, that's fine.

All I'm saying is that asserting DAO list->DA2 wheel represents a loss of options is more about perception than reality.

[Caiden012]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

My problem is that you are comparing different things. I terms of what the two DID do they gave about 6 options. But in terms of what they CAN do, a tree fashion seems about limitless where a wheel structurally has limits. But the point is that I don't want to sit here and try to prove facts about how both work structurally and which is best. I just want to hear peoples opinions.

If you're saying that you'd prefer a long list not limited by the structural issues of the wheel that also isn't restricted by DAO's hardcoded limit, that's fine.

All I'm saying is that asserting DAO list->DA2 wheel represents a loss of options is more about perception than reality.

I never said that the short comings of DA 2s dialogue came from the wheel. I simiply prefer the tree because I believe that there was more virity to my choices because to me PERSONALLY I felt like the structure of wheel made it so I would always know which dialogue option I was going to pick next. That is my opinion in the matter it is in no way false or a fact.

[zyntifox]

My biggest beef with the dialogue system isn't that you choose your answer from a wheel but rather the paraphrasing of the dialogue. If they let me know exactly what my character is going to say i don't care if i choose it from a circle, triangle, quadrangle, pentagon or hexagon.

But i do find it strange that they seem to want the same dialogue system in all their franchises.

[Peranor]

I don't mind the dialogue wheel

[Berty213]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I thought it was cool when it was only used for the ME series. Now I just can't stand it any longer.

This. I don't think it belongs in the DA universe.

[dheer]

I have no problem with the wheel. It's just an interface and it doesn't restrict dialogue as much as you'd think because you they can use the investigate portion on the left for more branching things.

The paraphrases in DA2, however, were jarring at points and pretty poor at their job, letting you know what your character is going to say.

Modifié par dheer, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .

[deuce985]

It's not a dealbreaker for me or anything. It's not horrible either. It's ok. We could use some improvements on the wheel but overall, I like some things it's aiming for.

I found the icons very confusing when I first played DA2 but I eventually warmed up to them. I wish inside the icon boxes it just told you the type of response you had. "Direct" instead of guessing what the icon was aiming for...

Mostly, I found their icons easy to understand the first time through the game. Some were rather confusing to me expressing certain tones though...

I've mentioned before but I'd also like the ability for more tones for each personality in certain situations. I don't think two tones for each personality is enough. I see paraphrase as a problem too but this doesn't bother me nearly as much as some on here. I'm more concerned about control of my tones.

Modifié par deuce985, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[xAmilli0n]

I played Mass Effect first, so I am much more comfortable with the dialogue wheel. Plus I like some of the things DA2 did with it.

[The_Other_M]

I really liked DA2's dialog wheel, it was like an evolved version of ME's dialog wheel (minus the Paragon/Renegade interrupts).

The personality tracker was a nice addition too, I liked the idea that if I choose mostly humorous/sarcastic responses, that Hawke would have a humorous/sarcastic tone, and other characters would respond accordingly.

My only issue with the personally tracker is that it seems like it only keeps track of your last 3 or 4 choices and not your overall choices.

[Knight of Dane]

I loved it, I didn't think it was the dialogue wheel that limited Dragon Ae 2 but the use of it.
I think it did more good than bad, and it's certainly my favorite use of dialogue choise while our character has a voice.

[budzai]

I hate the main character VO **** with passion so guess...

[gruedragon]

I prefer the Origins way, where you knew exactly what your character is going to say.

The first time I played the first Mass Effect, about a third of the way through I started picking the dialogue wheel options at random, due to the disconnect between what I thought Shepard would say and what he actually ended up saying.

I have gotten used to the wheel, and didn't have that problem with ME2 or ME3, or DA2. Though maybe BioWare got better at summarizing what Shep/Hawke would actually say.

I like the icons DA2 uses on the wheel.

[hussey 92]

The dialogue wheel sucked. It only gave you 3 options, and you weren't even picking dialogue, just whether you'd be nice, sarcastic or mean.

[Caiden012]

hussey 92 wrote...

The dialogue wheel sucked. It only gave you 3 options, and you weren't even picking dialogue, just whether you'd be nice, sarcastic or mean.

I totaly agree

[Fireblader70]

I like the dialogue wheel... if it's used correctly. ME1, ME2 and DA2 seemed to do a good job, so if they continue with that method then I will be satisfied.

But if it is anything like ME3... no. Please, no. There was so little role-playing it hurt.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Caiden012 wrote...

I personally am not a fan of it. I always felt like my options were limited to only a few responses and Sometimes Hawke would not say what I thought he would.

The wheel doesn't cause that.  The voice+paraphrase causes that.

[Palipride47]

I like voiced protagonist. 

I like the wheel (for the most part).

I liked the "intent" icons (like the "flirt" button, it saved my skin many, many times - if they weren't there, that is). I like that investigative bits were separate. After playing DAO after DA2, I can see that it was "essentially" the same, with three kinds of "responses" and some investigative choices mixed in. 

I do like that the actions you could take (lie vs threaten) were based on personality. You can hold a knife to someone's throat and have them beleive you wouldn't dare, that you are bluffing. It made it "inconvenient" (that I couldn't just use 4 skill points and then be a Jedi), which was annoying, initially, but it is better. 

What I did not like was that the plot points (siding with Varnell is the main one I can think of) were based on personality.

What I did not like was that you liking or disliking someone/ something seemed to be based on your personality. What I did not like was that diplomatic choices were "agreeable" (you support Merrill's mirror obsession, or think what Anders did with the spirit was well intentioned, so therefore it was ok) and that agressive choices were "disagreable," (like calling Anders an abomination was restricted to aggressive remarks)  

If those can be changed, I will be fully satisifed.

(just reposting something I already said somewhere else, it is the most succient explanation of my opinion)

Modifié par Palipride47, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:02 .

[PinkysPain]

DA:O was essentially the same ... but when all the dialogue is out in the open writers really can't get away with giving you little choice but emotional intonation. Having them fully written out forces discipline and good behaviour on the part of the writers ... which is why they don't like it.

[Eveangaline]

Honestly? I really dislike it, I don't like not seeing all of what I'm saying. And I'm not a fan of voice protagonists

[KDD-0063]

Wheel itself is not the problem.
There are simply too few choices in ME3; two is simply too few but it is also lower than the limit of dialogue wheel.
and in DA2, basically you are saying the same thing with different tones most of the time. So two choices that are actually the same gets three slots in the dialogue wheel. Very inefficient (and lazy) use of the dialogue wheel space.

Does the dialogue wheel offer enough options for DA3? I don't know. Probably yes, probably no.
DA2 and ME3 gave an unsatisfying experience, not because dialogue wheel itself is necessarily bad, but rather they didn't even efficiently use the space on it (or they are simply lazy).

On the other hand, dialogue wheel does limit the length of each line we can say, as paraphrases can only show so much. That part I don't like. I enjoyed a plethora of long responses in dialogues, we have seen those in PS: T, in both Kotor games, and in a number of NWN modules and etc.

If a short paraphrase is linked with a long line from the protagonist then it becomes sort of auto-dialogue (wait, I didn't mean that, did I?), another concept that I don't like.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Maria Caliban]

Caiden012 wrote...

 So with it being used in SWTOR, all of the Mass Effect games, DA2, and most likly DA3, what do you all think of the dialogue wheel?

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.