130 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

I wouldn't mind the wheel as much if it A) didn't have paraphrases, didn't have vague, unexplained icons (I'm still scratching my head how a diamond means charming, exactly), C) didn't always have the same option in the same spot (where I can choose a diplomatic option every time without even looking at what the words may say just by going "upper right, upper right, upper right" at every opportunity) and D) no putting the investigate option in its own spot. I don't mind having a sub-menu, but labeling every investigate option as an investigate option takes any sense of spontaneity out of the conversation. Knowing EXACTLY what options will move things forward and which will keep things static and only add background knowledge is a buzz kill. It tells me psychologically that I can take it easy for the next few minutes while an NPC does a data dump of information. Instead of keeping me engaged to actively try and avoid options that move the conversation forward until I am ready.

[WhiteThunder]

Use the dialogue system from DE: HR or The Witcher franchise where you actually get to choose what you are saying. The only people I've ever heard complain about seeing their responses in their entirety are David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw. It's obnoxious that they insist that their dislike of knowing exactly what their character is going to say before he says it is a universal truth.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

Unless they start numbering the wheel options, it's harder for PC users.  That's zero-sum.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

(I'm still scratching my head how a diamond means charming, exactly)

It means Charming because it's defined to mean Charming.

That definition was imprecise and inconsistently applied, but it was there.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

 So with it being used in SWTOR, all of the Mass Effect games, DA2, and most likly DA3, what do you all think of the dialogue wheel?

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

I also don't understand why people get worked up about it.  I have yet to play a CRPG that lets me say what I would actually want to say in a given situation.  And I enjoy the voiced protagonist for the most part.  That's not to say I don't like games where it's entirely text-based, those are fine too.  I just don't see why EVERY game has to be EXACTLY the same or ZOMG it's a DISASTER.  Variety is good.

I find I enjoy the surprise of hearing what results from the dialog choices, although it does mean that if I find one I like I tend to stick with that one on subsequent playthroughs rather than try the others.  But I do that with the list dialog, too.

[PinkysPain]

WhiteThunder wrote...
It's obnoxious that they insist that their dislike of knowing exactly what their character is going to say before he says it is a universal truth.

They dislike making it so extremely obvious how little choice they actually want to give us

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

Unless they start numbering the wheel options, it's harder for PC users.  That's zero-sum.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

(I'm still scratching my head how a diamond means charming, exactly)

It means Charming because it's defined to mean Charming.

That definition was imprecise and inconsistently applied, but it was there.

Did they include a list of what the conversation options meant in the manual? I can't remember. All I remember is that I definitely felt like I was guessing a lot of the time on my first playthrough unless it was a Blue/Purple/Red option.

[Fast Jimmy]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

 So with it being used in SWTOR, all of the Mass Effect games, DA2, and most likly DA3, what do you all think of the dialogue wheel?

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

I also don't understand why people get worked up about it.  I have yet to play a CRPG that lets me say what I would actually want to say in a given situation.  And I enjoy the voiced protagonist for the most part.  That's not to say I don't like games where it's entirely text-based, those are fine too.  I just don't see why EVERY game has to be EXACTLY the same or ZOMG it's a DISASTER.  Variety is good.

I find I enjoy the surprise of hearing what results from the dialog choices, although it does mean that if I find one I like I tend to stick with that one on subsequent playthroughs rather than try the others.  But I do that with the list dialog, too.

I don't think you are getting why people dislike it. 

Its not that people don't get to say exactly what they want. That's a totally understandable limitation. Since we can't say anything we want, we want to weigh the options to at least try and get in the right ballpark.

That's not possible if we are guessing what our character is going to say. You can't pick the closest option available if you don't really know any of the options. 

And please let me know when you see a glut of games coming out with the dialogue list and a silent PC. Aside from Skyrim and DA:O, I'd say they are extremely in the minority. Otherwise, I'd hardly say every game has to be the same... I'm just looking for a game, period.

[Zjarcal]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

Unless they start numbering the wheel options, it's harder for PC users.  That's zero-sum.

You could already do that in DA2, 1 for top right option, 2 for middle right, 3 for bottom right, 4 for top left, 5 for middle left, 6 for bottom left.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm indifferent to it. I don't really see why people get worked up over it, but I know that it's easier for console users so I support it.

Unless they start numbering the wheel options, it's harder for PC users.  That's zero-sum.

You could already do that in DA2, 1 for top right option, 2 for middle right, 3 for bottom right, 4 for top left, 5 for middle left, 6 for bottom left.

I'm saying it would be easier if those numbers were actually displayed with the options.

The directions match on consoles - you puch the stick up and right for the upper right option.  The only way the console would be equivalent to the PC design is if the directions didn't match and players had to memorise which direction was which.

Console users get a graphical display of how to choose options.  PC users don't.  That's the difference.

[Sylvius the Mad]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I have yet to play a CRPG that lets me say what I would actually want to say in a given situation. 

But other games let you choose from a finite list, which DA2 does not.

[Lenimph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The directions match on consoles - you puch the stick up and right for the upper right option.  The only way the console would be equivalent to the PC design is if the directions didn't match and players had to memorise which direction was which.

Console users get a graphical display of how to choose options.  PC users don't.  That's the difference.

It's called a freaking mouse and you use it for clicking. 

CLICK CLICK CLICK 

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Did they include a list of what the conversation options meant in the manual?

Yes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lenimph wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The directions match on consoles - you puch the stick up and right for the upper right option.  The only way the console would be equivalent to the PC design is if the directions didn't match and players had to memorise which direction was which.

Console users get a graphical display of how to choose options.  PC users don't.  That's the difference.

It's called a freaking mouse and you use it for clicking. 

CLICK CLICK CLICK 

They gave us keyboard controls for the wheel in DA2.  And BioWare's the first to say that they don't want to include options if they can't include them well.  The keyboard control option in DA2 was poorlu done.

It was still better than not having it (though BioWare would deny that, given their position on disabling the PC's voice), but it was not up to BioWare's own standards of quality.

[Icinix]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The directions match on consoles - you puch the stick up and right for the upper right option.  The only way the console would be equivalent to the PC design is if the directions didn't match and players had to memorise which direction was which.

Console users get a graphical display of how to choose options.  PC users don't.  That's the difference.

It's called a freaking mouse and you use it for clicking. 

CLICK CLICK CLICK 

They gave us keyboard controls for the wheel in DA2.  And BioWare's the first to say that they don't want to include options if they can't include them well.  The keyboard control option in DA2 was poorlu done.

It was still better than not having it (though BioWare would deny that, given their position on disabling the PC's voice), but it was not up to BioWare's own standards of quality.

Keyboard shortcuts in the last few releases have indeed been less than well implemented.

Pretty much since they started doing their own porting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Did they include a list of what the conversation options meant in the manual? I can't remember. All I remember is that I definitely felt like I was guessing a lot of the time on my first playthrough unless it was a Blue/Purple/Red option.

Did you play the demo?

The demo didn't come with any documentation at all, so we had no idea what the icons meant.  If that was your introduction to DA2's wheel (as it was for me), I can see why that sense of frustration might have lingered.  I was convinced that the gavel meant "decisive" rather than "direct".  I mean, it's a gavel - judges make decisions.

And anyway, the definitions in the manual were horribly vague.  What does "charming" even mean wheel event to wheel event?  What does humorous mean?  That was easily the worst one.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Did they include a list of what the conversation options meant in the manual?

Yes.

Hmmm. You're right, I had to go back and look. Although some of the more obscure options aren't covered (such as the Merrill conversation icon, I couldn't for the life of me tell what that even was until I picked it). 

Even with a definition, I don't understand how a diamond equates charming. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Filament wrote...

I thought the number implementation was disappointing, we should have been able to use the numpad to choose options on the wheel in a spatially analogous manner.

That would have been really cool.  That's a terrific idea.

BioWare, listen to this person.

[Eveangaline]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I wouldn't mind the wheel as much if it A) didn't have paraphrases, didn't have vague, unexplained icons (I'm still scratching my head how a diamond means charming, exactly), C) didn't always have the same option in the same spot (where I can choose a diplomatic option every time without even looking at what the words may say just by going "upper right, upper right, upper right" at every opportunity) and D) no putting the investigate option in its own spot. I don't mind having a sub-menu, but labeling every investigate option as an investigate option takes any sense of spontaneity out of the conversation. Knowing EXACTLY what options will move things forward and which will keep things static and only add background knowledge is a buzz kill. It tells me psychologically that I can take it easy for the next few minutes while an NPC does a data dump of information. Instead of keeping me engaged to actively try and avoid options that move the conversation forward until I am ready.

This, exactly. I'd like it if this was fixed

[Lenimph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They gave us keyboard controls for the wheel in DA2.  And BioWare's the first to say that they don't want to include options if they can't include them well.  The keyboard control option in DA2 was poorlu done.

It was still better than not having it (though BioWare would deny that, given their position on disabling the PC's voice), but it was not up to BioWare's own standards of quality.

The keyword here is OPTION 

Console players only have one way of navigating the dialog wheel while PC players have 2 and using a mouse to pick said option is practically identical to using an analog stick.  Personally I feel numbers next to the wheel would have been a poor aethetic choice on the pc version.  Maybe a WASD or directional keys approach would have been better but it seems like a trivial complaint to me when theres the capability of using a mouse.

Modifié par Lenimph, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Did you play the demo?

The demo didn't come with any documentation at all, so we had no idea what the icons meant.  If that was your introduction to DA2's wheel (as it was for me), I can see why that sense of frustration might have lingered.

I have a dinosaur PC, so demo'ing more often than not isn't on the table (I nearly broke my machine trying to run the Crusader Kings 2 demo). Which is why I am beyond glad Inuse Gamefly. 

I was convinced that the gavel meant "decisive" rather than "direct".  I mean, it's a gavel - judges make decisions.

I AM THE LAW!

Sorry... I can't see the gavel option in DA2 without channeling my inner Judge Dredd.  

And anyway, the definitions in the manual were horribly vague.  What does "charming" even mean wheel event to wheel event?  What does humorous mean?  That was easily the worst one.

Yes, humorous was sometimes horribly insensitive and insanely macabre. Some of the DA2 options have me, quite to a surprise to me, the option to play a character with some serious mental and behavioral psychological issues. 
 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:38 .

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes, humorous was sometimes horribly insensitive and insanely macabre. Some of the DA2 options have me, quite to a surprise to me, the option to play a character with some serious mental and behavioral psychological issues. 
 

Well yeah.  It's roleplaying, you're allowed to roleplay a horribly insensitive git.  It's fully supported!

Those situations did not lend themselves to humor, if you choose to have your character tell a joke there, it will be in poor taste, and everyone will look at you like you're a jerk.

That's much better than jokes only being available when they're funny, and everyone automatically agreeing that they are funny.

But you don't have to pick the joke options all the time, if you pick them when you genuinely feel a situation is funny, more often than not the option will actually be funny.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Anomander Rake]

What annoys me the most is that I end up, instead of actually reading the options I just consistently pick the sarcastic/charming or Diplomatic/Helpful options. I know this is really my fault but it didn't happen with DA:0.

[upsettingshorts]

Anomander Rake wrote...

What annoys me the most is that I end up, instead of actually reading the options I just consistently pick the sarcastic/charming or Diplomatic/Helpful options. I know this is really my fault but it didn't happen with DA:0.

I blame color coding and expectations created by Mass Effect.  A lot of people did that and it's not really necessary in DA2.  It's definitely an issue I wouldn't gloss over.

[Eveangaline]

Anomander Rake wrote...

What annoys me the most is that I end up, instead of actually reading the options I just consistently pick the sarcastic/charming or Diplomatic/Helpful options. I know this is really my fault but it didn't happen with DA:0.

I felt like I had to pick certain things because of how your options and voice would change if you picked too much of one thing.

I mean my hawke isn't very agressive, but there are things that would ****** them off, but I was afraid if I picked the harsher options I might lock myself in as a grumpyhawke. Or if I picked too many silly options, I might sound entirey innoppropriate later when trying to be serious.