39 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

No, I don't mean "flipping the Reapers off." Though I'm sure many people wouldn't mind that option.

What I actually mean is flipping the Reapers from evil to not evil. Or evil to ambiguous. Or evil to amoral. Or evil to enslaved. What have you -- I've heard it lots of ways. But all of it means that the Reapers are no longer, officially, "Bad Guys." Now they're just the pawns of a well-meaning machine. Surprise! U like?

A lot of dissatisfaction seems to surround the decision to de-vilify the Reapers. People go on about how they feel like they were forced to compromise with the Reapers, or "accept Reaper solutions to Reaper problems" (one of my favorite phrasings), or capitulate, concede, what have you. Bottom line, we ain't satisfied.

And all of this seems to be due to the fact that for many of those who were dissatisfied, the Reapers were not successfully "flipped." We did not feel like we were compromising with a neutral party. We still felt like we were compromising with the enemy.

So, why did we feel that way? Why didn’t the flip take for so many?

Interested in hearing replies from both ending critics and supporters, but my guesses would be:

• The flip was too last minute. They'd spent 2.9 games presenting the Reapers as evil. It was too late to change it and still finish the game in a way that felt right to everyone. At this point you're not making a clever reversal, you're pulling the rug out from under the momentum of the journey and ruining the climax.
  
• The series portrayed the Reapers as too "evil." Sovereign seemed like he didn't have a clue why he was really harvesting organics; I guess the Catalyst didn't let him in on the mission goal, and he assumed it was because organics were lol puny lol. Harbinger was a supremacist troll who apparently thought he was "ascending" us (at this point I'm thinking the Catalyst only let two or three Reapers know the truth and the rest invented their own explanations). They were both arrogant megalomaniacal pricks only a few steps down from Sauron or Voldemort, if that -- a far cry from the nice dying Reaper in ME3 who told us we didn't understand why the Reapers were doing it all. It seems obvious the writers changed their minds about the nature of the Reapers at the last minute, and that makes it hard to swallow, because it's not a change that had proper buildup.
  
• The Reapers' methods were too horrific and vile, too morally objectionable, to subtract morality and emotion from the equation at the last minute. Husk impalement, indoctrination, the twisted transformation of organics into shock troops, even the process of Reaper reproduction -- pretty nasty supervillainy stuff. What the Reapers do is a perversion of free will, self-identity, and self-determination, and it has been that way since game one. These are all principles that organics (and even the sentient AIs in the series) hold too dear. It made too many players unwilling to change their minds about the Reapers. I think one of the reasons people flock to the idea of an indoctrination ending is they really like the idea of overcoming lies and tyranny. Mass Effect really fueled the fire of people’s appetite for that kind of empowering rebellion by maintaining indoctrination as such a longstanding series element. They weren't ready to stop seeing indoctrination as evil brainwashing, and start seeing it as a simple tool used by an amoral and unhateable intelligence.
  
• The Catalyst.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[David7204]

That's not a retcon. And Liara had a perfectly consistent characterization considering her circumstances.

Modifié par David7204, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Kabooooom]

David7204 wrote...

That's not a retcon. And Liara had a perfectly consistent characterization considering her circumstances.

I agree - she went from a timid xenoarchaeologist in ME1, through a life-and-death ordeal, then literally almost dying and watching Shep die, then trying to recover his body - then assuming he was beyond her reach and hunting down the Shadow Broker by becoming a semi-cutthroat information broker on Ilium.

The Liara of ME2 is basically the same Liara of ME3 with the exception that the circumstances of her becoming the Shadow Broker did alter her perspective somewhat. But the Liara of ME1 and ME2 is vastly different, and understandably so.

I really don't understand why people complain to the contrary. It makes literally no sense. It's like they weren't paying attention to her story at all.

[eternalnightmare13]

Never considered the Reapers ''evil'' to begin with. It was always clear to me they were cold, calculating inhuman entities that were attempting to accomplish a task they've been doing for practically eternity. Calling or thinking the Reapers were 'evil' is as limited/silly as calling a forest fire or hurricane 'evil'.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Another example of said "flipping" would be the fact that we no longer get to see Dragons Teeth in action, nor do we get to see any "processing" action. We do get to hear EDI talk about how the Reapers round up civilians into concentration camps, but we never get to see it .

Rounding up people, sticking them in concentration camps, then blending them, and impale the rejects to use them as your pawns is rather villainous, just saying.

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:46 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

I imagined something like tipping a really big cow while it slumbers in darkspace.

[ziyon conqueror]

If u do evil things, it makes u evil whether u admit to it or not. The Catalyst, being a type of machine that feels no remorse or empathy makes me all the more determined to defeat its logic and its creations.

[spirosz]

Well, I felt like ME3 was more about Cerberus than the Reapers, unfortunately. So I guess it ties in with your first point, of having it come too late for me.

[AlanC9]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Never considered the Reapers ''evil'' to begin with. It was always clear to me they were cold, calculating inhuman entities that were attempting to accomplish a task they've been doing for practically eternity. Calling or thinking the Reapers were 'evil' is as limited/silly as calling a forest fire or hurricane 'evil'.

Pretty much this; I'm not really sure "evil" is a useful term in the first place.

[Harbinger of Hope]

The Reapers were just tools of the Catalyst. A tool has no ill-will. Some people dislike the Catalysts line about a fire waging war. I actually liked it; It made sense. The Reapers do what they were designed too, they don't do it out of malice. So being able to use a tool, one which was made for war, for peace is very poignant to me. It's also a better form of revenge.

"Hey, Harby, you clean up the mess you made right now!"

"BUuuuUUuuut Shepard! I don't wanna!"

"NOW HARBINGER!"

"Ughhh, fine, you're soooooo mean!"

[GreyLycanTrope]

For me it was basically that I felt they had an established character already. Manipulative, cold, calculating with a complete disregard for "lesser" species. The Reapers I thought I knew used the Geth and Collectors as tools, they were used for as long as they remained useful and than cast aside. We see this in their use of husks as well, expendable shock troops, there to wreak havoc with no major plan for longevity outside of that. They had a plan and reason for what they were doing as well, anything that got in their way was insignificant. Humanity caught their eye for some reason, as did Shepard, but we're still not sure why. I mean if they're harvesting all life why give humanity all that special attention in ME2? They'll get to us eventually if they preserve all life, Reapers are supposed to be patient from what I remember.
It just didn't seem reasonable "dust in stellar wind" and "your leaders will beg to serve us" get turned into we're just trying to preserve all life? Sorry but that's not very convincing.

[CosmicGnosis]

Interestingly, even as far back as ME1, I was willing to give the Reapers the benefit of the doubt. That is, I was willing to at least consider their perspective and motivation.

Also, I always suspected that ME3 would end with a conversation with the Reapers, and that Shepard would have to make a galaxy-shaking choice. I couldn't imagine Shepard actually beating them, so I figured that he and the Reapers would have to settle for a little talk. Half of Mass Effect is the conversations, after all.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[JeffZero]

The original script treatment would have made the Reapers look all the more benevolent.

Sorry dorry, but your personal preferences re: ME3 have nothing to do with this. They were never completely "evil." If that's what you're looking for, I might suggest 1930's serials.

[justafan]

What is disappointing is that they already did a few satisfactory flips already.

In ME1, you could apply your 3rd point to not just the Reapers, but the Geth as well. people forget that back in the day, the Geth were your standard kill bots, impaling people on spikes, worshipping doombots, and trying to destroy all organic life. Then ME2 and Legion come along and the Geth are no longer evil, but misunderstood. It's far-fetched when you think about it, but the character of Legion was so well done that people could ignore the inconsistencies.

ME2 also gave us a flip of Cerberus. In ME1, they were rogue black ops mooks just waiting to get shot in the face. Then we are brought back to life by the Illusive Man and Miranda, and all of a sudden, Cerberus is a morally grey organization. They still do horrible things, but now they have rather justifications as well, and it's up to the player to decide whether they are in the right or not.

The problem is, these flips were established in the middle of the series. As you point out, the reapers are 100% grade A antagonists for 99% of the series. They are given no time to develop their flip and let it lead to a satisfactory conclusion.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The lack of foreshadowing besides that one line of Thessia is an epic fail by the writers. But the general idea is not really a bad one, IMO - that they are simply the mistake of an old civilization that became a problem for every civilization afterwards, at the hands of a "rogue" AI (not really rogue, but nonetheless).

Leviathan really should have been main-story material. I'd have sooner made Cerberus a mostly-DLC thing. TIM confrontation as well.

[justafan]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

justafan wrote...

What is disappointing is that they already did a few satisfactory flips already.

In ME1, you could apply your 3rd point to not just the Reapers, but the Geth as well. people forget that back in the day, the Geth were your standard kill bots, impaling people on spikes, worshipping doombots, and trying to destroy all organic life. Then ME2 and Legion come along and the Geth are no longer evil, but misunderstood. It's far-fetched when you think about it, but the character of Legion was so well done that people could ignore the inconsistencies.

ME2 also gave us a flip of Cerberus. In ME1, they were rogue black ops mooks just waiting to get shot in the face. Then we are brought back to life by the Illusive Man and Miranda, and all of a sudden, Cerberus is a morally grey organization. They still do horrible things, but now they have rather justifications as well, and it's up to the player to decide whether they are in the right or not.

The problem is, these flips were established in the middle of the series. As you point out, the reapers are 100% grade A antagonists for 99% of the series. They are given no time to develop their flip and let it lead to a satisfactory conclusion.

I found those to be not very well-done either (although both were definitely better-portrayed in ME2 than ME3).

One of my biggest peaves about ME3 is that it retconned the retcons. Cerberus is the worst offender, going from mooks, to grey/grey in ME2, to "for the evulz" in ME3.  But the Geth are guilty as well, going from being truly alien in ME2, having a form of intelligence foreign to organic and building their own future, to wanting to be a real boy in ME3 through reaper tech.

Worse, it is arguable that only the Geth got an emotionally satisfying conclusion on Rannoch.  IMO, Cerberus got the short end of the stick with the TIM confrontation on the citadel being weird, and Cronos station not bringing closure, despite Cerberus having the better executed flip in ME2.

Modifié par justafan, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[spirosz]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The lack of foreshadowing besides that one line of Thessia is an epic fail by the writers. But the general idea is not really a bad one, IMO - that they are simply the mistake of an old civilization that became a problem for every civilization afterwards, at the hands of a "rogue" AI (not really rogue, but nonetheless).

Leviathan really should have been main-story material. I'd have sooner made Cerberus a mostly-DLC thing. TIM confrontation as well.

I agree. 

[Nightwriter]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Never considered the Reapers ''evil'' to begin with. It was always clear to me they were cold, calculating inhuman entities that were attempting to accomplish a task they've been doing for practically eternity. Calling or thinking the Reapers were 'evil' is as limited/silly as calling a forest fire or hurricane 'evil'.

That's always been a kind of embarrassing argument. It tries to say the Reapers were never villains, merely antagonists.

This is wrong.

They were villains.

They brainwashed people. They gloated about their superiority. They taunted us with our doom. They arrogantly disdained us. They used methods that seemed pulled from a horror movie. They said "BWAHAHA YOU WILL ALL FALL BEFORE OUR MIGHT." They glorified in our suffering (THIS HURTS YOU. YOU WILL KNOW PAIN). They practically twirled their mustaches. I still remember the way the boards were post-ME1, when people were saying the Reapers were actually too LOL EVILZ LOL. When ME2 came along, the complaint shifted to "Harbinger is too trollish."

Honestly, when you say things like this, it makes me think you didn't even play the last two games.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 22 octobre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Village_Idiot]

Nightwriter wrote...

They brainwashed people. They gloated about their superiority. They taunted us with our doom. They arrogantly disdained us. They used methods that seemed pulled from a horror movie. They said "BWAHAHA YOU WILL ALL FALL BEFORE OUR MIGHT." They glorified in our suffering (THIS HURTS YOU. YOU WILL KNOW PAIN). They practically twirled their mustaches. I still remember the way the boards were post-ME1, when people were saying the Reapers were actually too LOL EVILZ LOL. When ME2 came along, the complaint shifted to "Harbinger is too trollish."

Honestly, when you say things like this, it makes me think you didn't even play the last two games.

Admittedly there's the "psychological warfare" argument (which has also been tossed around since ME1) but on the whole I agree. It isn't explained sufficiently to not come off as simply "for the evulz".

Sovereign was at least relatively indifferent to organics. Harbinger seems to just trash talk, and is a lesser villain for it. Then the Catalyst comes along and appears to contradict everything previous Reaper "identities" established by relegating them to pawns.

[Jadebaby]

Nightwriter wrote...

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Never considered the Reapers ''evil'' to begin with. It was always clear to me they were cold, calculating inhuman entities that were attempting to accomplish a task they've been doing for practically eternity. Calling or thinking the Reapers were 'evil' is as limited/silly as calling a forest fire or hurricane 'evil'.

That's always been a kind of embarrassing argument. It tries to say the Reapers were never villains, merely antagonists.

This is wrong.

They were villains.

They brainwashed people. They gloated about their superiority. They taunted us with our doom. They arrogantly disdained us. They used methods that seemed pulled from a horror movie. They said "BWAHAHA YOU WILL ALL FALL BEFORE OUR MIGHT." They glorified in our suffering (THIS HURTS YOU. YOU WILL KNOW PAIN). They practically twirled their mustaches. I still remember the way the boards were post-ME1, when people were saying the Reapers were actually too LOL EVILZ LOL. When ME2 came along, the complaint shifted to "Harbinger is too trollish."

Honestly, when you say things like this, it makes me think you didn't even play the last two games.

nice.

I agree. I've always said they went from bad-asses to babysitters.

I hate it, I truly truly do.

[Jadebaby]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

They brainwashed people. They gloated about their superiority. They taunted us with our doom. They arrogantly disdained us. They used methods that seemed pulled from a horror movie. They said "BWAHAHA YOU WILL ALL FALL BEFORE OUR MIGHT." They glorified in our suffering (THIS HURTS YOU. YOU WILL KNOW PAIN). They practically twirled their mustaches. I still remember the way the boards were post-ME1, when people were saying the Reapers were actually too LOL EVILZ LOL. When ME2 came along, the complaint shifted to "Harbinger is too trollish."

Honestly, when you say things like this, it makes me think you didn't even play the last two games.

Admittedly there's the "psychological warfare" argument (which has also been tossed around since ME1) but on the whole I agree. It isn't explained sufficiently to not come off as simply "for the evulz".

Sovereign was at least relatively indifferent to organics. Harbinger seems to just trash talk, and is a lesser villain for it. Then the Catalyst comes along and appears to contradict everything previous Reaper "identities" established by relegating them to pawns.

Harbinger's trash talk doesn't make him less of a villian. It makes him less of a good villian. But he's still very much a villian in that he revels in our demise.. I mean "Your worlds will become our laboratories."

Doesn't get much more messed up than that...

[Kataphrut94]

They're acting in the interests of a higher cause, but from our point of view, they're still pretty damn evil. They think they're being benevolent to the primitive races by saving them from the advanced races, but that doesn't make them any less arrogant, zombifying, mind-controlling, genocidal bastards.

[KiwiQuiche]

Yeah, it was too damn abrupt.

But I do feel kinda bad for the Reapers and the Catalyst; they are just victims of the Leviathans sh!t-ass programming.