39 réponses à ce sujet

[Gerbil Fetus]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

They're acting in the interests of a higher cause, but from our point of view, they're still pretty damn evil. They think they're being benevolent to the primitive races by saving them from the advanced races, but that doesn't make them any less arrogant, zombifying, mind-controlling, genocidal bastards.

Exactly.
it just also happens that all these things they are doing are all "do not want." And generally view those tasks as inherently evil and wrong.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

oops, I goofed!

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 mai 2013 - 04:35 .

[ThinkSharp]

I don't think the Reapers are flipped. Our perspective widened to include an explanation we can either accept or reject.

We learned that the Reapers don't believe their actions are evil, but that's it. That doesn't make them "good guys" or even "neutral". It doesn't make their actions any less heinous or their motives exactly pure.

It's significant that none of the endings that supposedly "side" with the Reapers actually involve leaving the Reapers "as is". Synthesis changes them. Control changes their overseer and thus their purpose/plan. But no end actually says, "Hey they're good guys. This is great. Let it continue." Even Refuse ends up with the Reapers anihilated.

The information delivered by the Catalyst came too quickly and too late. But I sincerely believe that any idea that game tries to make the Reapers "good" or "innocent" is a misconception.

[PsyrenY]

Nightwriter wrote...

Now they're just the pawns of a well-meaning machine. Surprise! U like?

It shouldn't be a surprise. Good villains do have good intentions; Captain Planet-style villainy belongs in children's cartoons, not literature.

But I disagree with your basic premise - that knowing what drives the Reapers makes them less as villains. They are still pretty clearly evil and pretty clearly must be stopped; there was no "flipping" there, merely a disconnect between the writers and some of the (louder) fans' expectations on how they would be dealt with. I also disagree with the phrasing "Reaper problems," since the problem obviously existed before Reapers were a thing.

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
I imagined something like tipping a really big cow while it slumbers in darkspace.

I thought it would be this too, i.e. finding some way to blast them all while they were conserving power in darkspace (and thus unshielded.) I was very surprised when they actually showed up in ME3, because I knew how screwed we were conventionally, unless Bioware was going to downplay the threat in the end. Luckily we had the Crucible, which allowed for a plausible win without a conventional one.

[shodiswe]

They never stoped being evil.
You are evil when you force yourself on others, and the Reapers did that in very undeniably evil ways. Mentaly, physicaly, and with a terminaly catastrophic conclusion to peoples lives. They also forced terror fear and dread on their victims.
Their reasons matter less when they are condeming people for what they might possibly do but havn't done yet.

I can't say that standing there and eatup the Catalysts monologue by the Catalyst was very satisfying. It was seriously lacking drama. Most of the mission in Londo seems to lack a story and engaging Character content. London seemed like a shootergallery, and then we got a monologue with a few Cues from Shepard to tell the Catalyst to go on with ti's "explaining".

I can see why they needed some way of explaining and clarifying that absurd situation but I really think they should have gone a different path about it and perhaps included more actors. Perhaps even additional choices or additional possible endigns dependign on some of your major plot choices that could have affected the design and advancement of the Crusible aswell as it structural integrity.

While plain war assets would help you more with the battle over Earth and in London, and affect the deathtoll of allied forces/squadmates.

I hope the next games ending isn't too much like ME3.

I don't mind the "evil" pretending it has good motives and does it for a cause.

What I do agree with is the notion that the Catalyst get's the "honor" of defining the endings. That aswell isn't very satisfying seeign it get's it's way no matter what, even if you pick Destroy even if some people don't agree on that Point.
Even destroy forces your hand and sends you into obllivion if you don't pick the Catalysts prefered choice since it perpetuates the conflict between Organic/sythetic.

Some people might prefer never ending synthetic wars though til the galaxy is consumed by it.
I'm guessing the choices wern't really the Catalysts chocies and therefor you can't ask it nicely to just die and take it's reapers with it, or do as you say.

I don't need a MEHEM ending which I actualy find rather boring and Disney like, but I wish the original endings were better made endings. They are rather boring and very Little affects them or matters.

If you (as the player) could have made more choices in it's Construction and the allies you made and Resources you pickedup could add to it in different ways then it could have been more interesting.

As it is now the story is fairly interesting until somewhere aroudn the cerberus base or Priority Earth, the it all get's railroaded too much.

[Auld Wulf]

I think the OP is silly. The fact of the matter is is that we don't even realise that they're enslaved until the end of the game -- the problem is the so-called "abomination aesthetic" that lesser minds can't let go of. So let me explain why the "abomination aesthetic" is actually a problem, and not a problem for me. Problem?

Okay, work with me here. Use your imagination!

You are the hero of the Earth Alliance, Commander Shepard. You've endured a long, soul-crushing campaign and you've lost much. Your enemy? Faceless automatons; human-shaped cyborgs who've ruthlessly dominated your people for centuries. Much of the world was ravaged and left barren in the war with them, and now... the end of the war is in sight.

But wait! You discover that the cyborgs are being controlled by a malign artificial intelligence, and you learn that each of these people were just humans who were gathered like cattle to be converted. There are people from all walks of life -- from business folk; to hobos; to those with families; to just about everything else. With technology provided to you by your superiors, you've taken command of the artificial intelligence -- now you have a choice:

-- Kill the cyborgs. Put them out of their misery.

-- Free the cyborgs, and erase their memories of the events which transpired, knowing that you can give them their humanity back with the medical technology available.

(I see Control as something that can go the way of Synthesis anyway, so that's how I'm presenting this.)

So, do you free the cyborgs and have medical technology restore their humanity, or do you slaughter them all? You're probably going to choose to help them, because they're human. It's very easy to see something as a monster because it looks so different than us -- this is the so-called "abomination aesthetic," and it only exists in the minds of those who can't separate something that looks and acts incredibly different from them from something evil.

You don't need the Reapers to be "flipped," all you need to know is that they were enslaved. The ethical, erudite mind understands that the Reapers were put through body and mind rape, and that they don't deserve to die for that. Such a mind experiences sympathy, and feels for these abused synthetics, since they've been unable to avoid doing what they've done, they've been forced to do it through insidious mind-control.

But some people aren't quite that... benevolent? They see something as being too different than humanity, and that makes it easy to label as evil. Thus we have the "abomination aesthetic" -- that the Reapers look and act so different from us that they have to be evil. If they were humans, then the situation would be different. What if the Reapers had been like the Borg or the Cybermen, where you could have freed them? The choice would then be very different.

I'm proud to have a mind that's able to recognise this and understand what's going on, here.

[AresKeith]

@Auld you know people would probably take you serious if you don't insult people and act like your above them

[Auld Wulf]

@Optimystic_X

I completely agree with you, so much so. It's not so much a "Reaper problem" as a "player problem." What Mass Effect did is it invited people to rise above their trivialities and think outside of the box. Most didn't, most just saw 'monsters' and hit the destroy button, and they left it at that. On the other hand, I was curious as to why the Reapers did what they did, and actually bothering to listen to the Catalyst I learned that the Reapers were just slaves.

In that moment, I felt sorry for them. But not everyone is so willing to listen, some are wilfully oblivious and have very selective hearing. So they encountered the Catalyst and met it with such hate that they didn't care what it had to say -- the Reaeprs were and are monsters and that is that, that's final! That's incredibly disappointing to me.

Why is it disappointing? Curiosity has a direct correlation with intelligence. This has been proved time and again -- one such instance is that whilst we can teach various simians to use sign language to answer a question, they have never asked one. The ability to ask a question is innately human. The ability to be curious is what makes us what we are, and when you stop being curious, you effectively stop being human. You give yourself over to more primal ways of thinking -- in this case, that anyone opposing you is a monster, and that's final. No questions asked.

No questions asked.

That's why it's disappointing: No questions asked. The OP doesn't want to ask questions about himself, the Reapers, or anything else. He doesn't want to stop to evaluate his thinking, he just wants to trust primal instinct. That's fine, but it's disappointing. I wanted to know about the Reapers -- yes, they were our foes, but I still wanted to understand what made them tick, why they were like they were. So I asked questions, and I listened. I am a very human person.

The answers to my questions all directly confirmed that the Reapers were once civilisations that had gone through mind and body rape thanks to the Catalyst, who were then enslaved and forced to do terrible things. Knowing that, how can you not feel sympathy? But the problem is is that some people will wilfully not know, they'll be selective, and they'll choose to not be curious at all because defying curiosity bolsters whatever primal, animal fears they have.

You can ask the Catalyst about the nature of the Reapers.

So to those who see the Reapers as being abominations -- why didn't you ask? Or if you did, why weren't you listening?

[Kel Riever]

 I would call it a blind fanboi who hasn't done enough reading in life problem.
So, you are right, Auld Wulf, it is a player problem!  Got to remember, if it is a player problem, that includes you! 

P.S.  I do feel sorry for you too, for your selective hearing.  I, too, am proud of having a mind that can recognize and understand what is going on here, particularly when it comes to your posts.  Have a hug.

I almost forgot:

Modifié par Kel Riever, 12 mai 2013 - 03:39 .

[essarr71]

Such a hypocrite..

[dreamgazer]

Trust me, Wulfie: questions were asked, curiosity sparked, positions considered, conflicts pondered.

But if it makes you---or, probably more accurately, your personality on here---feel better to assume that they didn't through your own binary thinking and false assumptions, go right on ahead.

[Astartes Marine]

AresKeith wrote...
@Auld you know people would probably take you serious if you don't insult people and act like your above them

Seconded but Auld will just ignore this helpful advice just like Seival. 


As for the Reapers being "flipped" from villain to not-so-villain...

• Last minute - Yeah this was one reason I wasn't swayed.  If you want to introduce a plot twist THIS LARGE, don't do it 2 minutes before the end of the entire game. 
• Series portrayal - The series was pretty consistent with the portrayal of the Reapers.  If we were supposed to change that view new information and ideas should have been introduced gradually.
• Methods - Agreed wholeheartedly.  Some people who shall remain nameless would be all too eager to simply forget all of this to serve their new overlords but I'm not among them.  Since day 1 they've used some pretty horrific methods for conversion and transformation.  From the Dragon's Teeth to the goo tube their methods have been the work of abominations.
• The Catalyst - Oh please don't get me started on the holobrat.  There's enough wrong with it, it's motives, and logic to fill a book.

In the end, I've made my choice.  Originally I would choose destroy to be rid of the Reapers...however I see it differently nowadays.  Post-war reconstruction would be made easier and humanity could be given an edge in several key areas.  After all that was done I'd just send the Reapers off into the nearest star, no point in keeping them around once they are no longer useful to the still surviving galaxy.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 12 mai 2013 - 03:43 .

[Zazzerka]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I'm proud to have a mind that's able to recognise this and understand what's going on, here.

I've got Mensa on the line, and they are just ****** thrilled at your ability to overanalyse works of fiction.

The pretentious arsehattery is a huge bonus.

[AlanC9]

Astartes Marine wrote...

• Last minute - Yeah this was one reason I wasn't swayed.  If you want to introduce a plot twist THIS LARGE, don't do it 2 minutes before the end of the entire game. 
• Series portrayal - The series was pretty consistent with the portrayal of the Reapers.  If we were supposed to change that view new information and ideas should have been introduced gradually.

Well, Harbinger did say that they were our "salvation through destruction."

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR the necromage.

OP I've honestly always expected some sort of morally ambiguous and pigheaded explanation for the Reapers ever since we heard the line salvation through destruction. Few things in ME have had clear cut examples of mustache twirling villainy (ME3 Cerberus being one of the few examples). The Reapers can have their reasoning, but I'm also free to still disagree with it regardless and am under no obligation to have this added info change my views on them if I don't find their motives or existence sympathetic enough.

Indeed I find them quick pitiful but I'm not about to alter an entire galaxy to suit the needs of one species. What gets me is what you've already pointed out, it's how we essentially end up solving their problems at practical gun point.