87 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

It's amazing to me how many people fall back to "Loghain sells the elves into slavery" as a justification for killing him, meanwhile ignoring the fact that the elves have been living as less than slaves for a lot longer than Loghain has been "in power" in Ferelden.  Maric apparently allowed it to continue, or to come into being well prior to events in this game, and didn't he have an elven mistress?  Seems I read that somewhere here.  I haven't read the books, yet, so I don't know.

What I do know is that it's supposed to be an overwhelming reason to call for Loghain's head.  Selling them into slavery is reprehensible, but allowing them to live in a condition where nobody would even notice isn't any better.  He took advantage of a situation that already existed, otherwise, somebody would already be aware.  Who is supposed to defend them?  If you don't play the origin, you'll see the signs all over about elves with swords will die upon them, so they aren't supposed to defend themselves.  It would seem that that is supposed to fall upon the Arl of Denerim?

Yet, whether you play the origin or not, you can surmise that he's not all that keen on protecting them, after all, his son treats the Alienage like a hooker buffet, where he doesn't even have to pay for them.  "you can dress up your pets any way you like, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".  So it's not the Arl's job either?  Cailin is forbidden from entering?  I just read this, and have heard it in game myself, but who rules, whoever is forbidding him, or Cailin, well, not anymore, all things considered, but..

At any rate, if you're not outraged about the conditions in the Alienage already, why would you be outraged about them being sold into slavery?  Is this just a justification to kill someone that has already yielded to you in a duel?  It's a poor excuse, unless you plan on thinning all the Nobility associated with Denerim for having them live the way they do?

[AndreaDraco]

The way the lived was despisable, true. And don't even get me started on that a** of the Arl of Denerim's son, who should have been executed in an even more gruesome way, like reduced to shreds by a pack of hungry cannibals or something like it. But that Loghain is exploiting this severe situation for gaining gold from slavers and torturers doesn't make his actions less severe.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

At any rate, if you're not outraged about the conditions in the Alienage already, why would you be outraged about them being sold into slavery?

Ask William Wallace.

[Squiggles1334]

The nobility in Denerim is certainly full of either hypocrites or blind people. Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

Some of my characters have found much more compelling reasons to remove Loghain's head than just selling elves into slavery. At the same time, I just can't bring myself to really hate the guy either, and wish I could've just sent him to the tower to deal with after the Blight.

Anyway, the elves really need to learn how to make bombs and traps from ordinary house supplies, and then disseminate that knowledge through marrying off sons and daughters to other alienages.

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

At any rate, if you're not outraged about the conditions in the Alienage already, why would you be outraged about them being sold into slavery?

Ask William Wallace.

So you don't think he was outraged about the whole thing?  He chose to stay out of it, until they forced his hand, and then he led a war that ended up in Scotland being free from English rule, to this day.  So I fail to see your point.  Loghain did not choose to stay out of anything, and the previous rulers of Ferelden took an "ignore it and it will go away" philosophy, also known as Ostrich Politics, stick your head in the sand and ignore it.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

So you don't think he was outraged about the whole thing?

I think he'd recognize that while government doesn't have obligation to provide for their subjects (the concept of social care being relatively new) it does not entitle said government in the slightest to take away the only "thing" their most poor subjects have, that is their freedom. Which is what Loghain was doing.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:49 .

[Curlain]

Nope William Wallace didn't lead a war that freed Scotland from English rule, he was defeated by Edward I. It was Robert the Bruce who defeated Edward II at the battle of Bannockburn that freed Scotland (though Edward III later defeated them again and put his own client king on Scotland's throne). As to the Alienage, just as with the selling them into slavery and letting them be used by the Tevinter mages (as sacrifices for blood magic it turned out) can be seen as a final straw. It's true that elves are second class citizens who are often (but not always) mistreated, but they are still citizens of Ferelden and have rights under the law, and it has to be remembered at the abuse seen in the city elf origin is not typical (even the human Chantry cleric was shocked), so it was an exceptional act. So yes, elves often have it bad, but it's a big difference from living in a ghetto, but still having a community and having rights under the law (and the freedom to choose your work, elves can move to other Alienages, or even outside though due to racism that doesn't always last, and can set up their own businesses, such as the bride of the male city elf chooses to), to being slaves with no rights, that anyone can do anything to, because they own them as property

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So you don't think he was outraged about the whole thing?

I think he'd recognize that while government doesn't have obligation to provide for their subjects (the concept of social care being relatively new) it does not entitle said government in the slightest to take away the only "thing" their most poor subjects have, that is their freedom. Which is what Loghain was doing.

Elves in the Alienage had no real freedom.  They lived as less than slaves.  From Leliana we can learn that elven servants in Orlais live better than some humans.  Which of course leads to her being all embarrassed about looking at elves differently, even if she doesn't mean to be cruel.  The fact that they had no freedom, or representation can be seen by the fact that Loghain could sell them into slavery with none being the wiser, or caring, until you point it out at the Landsmeet.

[AntiChri5]

robertthebard wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So you don't think he was outraged about the whole thing?

I think he'd recognize that while government doesn't have obligation to provide for their subjects (the concept of social care being relatively new) it does not entitle said government in the slightest to take away the only "thing" their most poor subjects have, that is their freedom. Which is what Loghain was doing.

Elves in the Alienage had no real freedom.  They lived as less than slaves.  From Leliana we can learn that elven servants in Orlais live better than some humans.  Which of course leads to her being all embarrassed about looking at elves differently, even if she doesn't mean to be cruel.  The fact that they had no freedom, or representation can be seen by the fact that Loghain could sell them into slavery with none being the wiser, or caring, until you point it out at the Landsmeet.

But at the Landsmeet the nobles are shocked and outraged by it. (which kind of surprised me) There is a big difference between living in a ghetto (which you are allowed to leave) and being cattle. City Elves always have the option of trying to find the Dalish

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Elves in the Alienage had no real freedom.  They lived as less than slaves.

Sophism, and more sophism. No "real freedom"? Whose property were they, then? Less than slaves? What slaves do we get to see in Ferelden for you to make this comparison?

The fact that they had no freedom, or representation can be seen by the fact that Loghain could sell them into slavery with none being the wiser, or caring, until you point it out at the Landsmeet.

At which point shockingly enough people do care. That "fact" shows rather lack of means to distribute information which is pretty normal in medieval society, not acceptance for what you try to defend here.

[robertthebard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But at the Landsmeet the nobles are shocked and outraged by it. (which kind of surprised me) There is a big difference between living in a ghetto (which you are allowed to leave) and being cattle. City Elves always have the option of trying to find the Dalish

The being sruprised about it comes to my exact point.  Nobody knew what he was doing because they chose not to know.  Ignoring the Alienage, at least from a governing standpoint, seems to be the policy, otherwise, somebody should have known about the Arl's son well prior to killing him in the origin, or finding him in the dungeon otherwise.  Either nobody knows, or they choose to remain silent about it.  Silence is consent, and so the elves are less than slaves, because at least a slave owner makes sure his slaves eat.  They aren't much good to him starved to death.

[BroBear Berbil]

I really didn't have much sympathy for the elves. They're so unlikeable in Dragon Age I couldn't care less that they were being sold into slavery but I never could justify killing a bunch of them for 10 health so I always let them go. I wasn't outraged by their living conditions either; again didn't care. It seems like the slavery bit was thrown in rather sloppily to give people some moral justification to dislike Loghain.

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

Modifié par OnionXI, 31 décembre 2009 - 04:10 .

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Elves in the Alienage had no real freedom.  They lived as less than slaves.

Sophism, and more sophism. No "real freedom"? Whose property were they, then? Less than slaves? What slaves do we get to see in Ferelden for you to make this comparison?

The fact that they had no freedom, or representation can be seen by the fact that Loghain could sell them into slavery with none being the wiser, or caring, until you point it out at the Landsmeet.

At which point shockingly enough people do care. That "fact" shows rather lack of means to distribute information which is pretty normal in medieval society, not acceptance for what you try to defend here.

It's evident you didn't read my initial post.  Read it again, and answer your own question, who did they belong to?

[Creature 1]

The elves are a bit of a quandary. My human mage had sympathy for them because she is similarly hated because she knows magic. My elf mage of course had a double dose of sympathy. My rogue character is a human noble and has some of the attitudes (of course it's normal to berate the kitchen staff!) I like to think he didn't know just how bad things were for the elves. At any rate he's in love with Zevran so he has more sympathy. Although the romance with Zevran does not refer much to him being an elf--if they wrote that in the relationship could go so many different directions, some of them ending in "Zevran disapproves -100".

[Squiggles1334]

OnionXI wrote...

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

That's his son, not the Arl himself.

[robertthebard]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

That's his son, not the Arl himself.

Yeah, and on my Dalish elf, I left him to rot.  Somebody may find him, eventually, I suppose, but I have the keys...

[BroBear Berbil]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

That's his son, not the Arl himself.

Well, considering Vaughn's father is killed at Ostigar and the usurper Howe is killed that does make Vaughn the rightful Arl. Also, I don't see why you would want to kill Vaughn's father. It's not like he's the one gathering up elven women to rape. Vaughn was out of control because his father was away and he could get away with it.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

It's evident you didn't read my initial post.  Read it again, and answer your own question, who did they belong to?

No, it's rather evident you're dodging inconvenient questions at this point, seeing as you choose to drop most of the issues and can't answer straight. And for the record your initial post doesn't state anything about elves belonging to anyone. If it tried to it'd be yet another fallacy seeing how you aren't actually anyone's slave in the city elf origin.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 décembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[Creature 1]

robertthebard wrote...
The being sruprised about it comes to my exact point.  Nobody knew what he was doing because they chose not to know.  Ignoring the Alienage, at least from a governing standpoint, seems to be the policy, otherwise, somebody should have known about the Arl's son well prior to killing him in the origin, or finding him in the dungeon otherwise.  Either nobody knows, or they choose to remain silent about it.  Silence is consent, and so the elves are less than slaves, because at least a slave owner makes sure his slaves eat.  They aren't much good to him starved to death.

Plausible deniability.  They really don't care what happens to the elves, they don't like them, and they wish they were gone.  Yet most don't do anything too horrible because a lot of people would disapprove, and prefer not to know if someone else is up to something because then they might have to either take a stand or become complicit.  Better to know nothing, then if it comes out gauge the public sympathy and go the safest route.  It's like the Jewish ghettos at the beginning of WW2.  Jews were isolated in the ghettos under tight control, in poor conditions and without enough food.  Eventually they were shipped out to concentration camps or simply killed in the ghetto.  When the ****s began the Holocaust many Germans denied what was really happening--sure, some didn't know, but others heard about the concentration camps and would know that the idea wasn't really that far-fetched. 

I'm sure also a lot of American slaveowners considered themselves good people and would have been shocked at the treatment slaves received from their owners, but in many cases chose not to know about it.  The fate of those Jews, slaves, or elves does not concern them, and they shouldn't pry into other people's (the **** party, other slaveowners, or the Arl of Denerim and his family) business. 

[Namirsolo]

At any rate, if you're not outraged about the conditions in the
Alienage already, why would you be outraged about them being sold into
slavery?  Is this just a justification to kill someone that has already
yielded to you in a duel?  It's a poor excuse, unless you plan on
thinning all the Nobility associated with Denerim for having them live
the way they do?

I think, judging by the way that Wynne and Leliana, heck even the King himself asks you about the alienages,  it's evident that the average Fereldan citizen has no idea what they're like. I guess they probably choose to believe that they are "separate but equal" or something. And I'm also guessing that even if the nobility knew the conditions in the alienage that they would be quick to say it's different from slavery (even though it's really no better( just to feel better about themselves.

No, it's not a good reason to kill Loghain. But then again,  I don't think there is ANY good reason to kill a helpless opponent who is no longer interested in fighting you. A better reason would be that he is a traitor to the crown and caused the death of hundreds of people including the king and pretty much all of the grey wardens. But even that is not enough for me, personally.. and you can see why I have problems with Alistair.

Although the romance with Zevran does not refer much to him being an
elf--if they wrote that in the relationship could go so many different
directions, some of them ending in "Zevran disapproves -100".

if you let the arl's son out, Zevran takes a huge approval hit. This is interesting because the first time I played I was a human noble who had no idea who he was and you can apparently talk to the guy and not hear a single racist thing about elves from him. So I was like "Okay this dude is kind of rude, but I see no reason why to let him  here" and when I started to let him out Zevran freaked out. Neither of us had any idea about his elf attitude.

Zevran also gets a huge minus if you agree to help the elven slaver in the alienage, but that one is more obvious.

Modifié par Namirsolo, 31 décembre 2009 - 04:33 .

[Squiggles1334]

OnionXI wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

That's his son, not the Arl himself.

Well, considering Vaughn's father is killed at Ostigar and the usurper Howe is killed that does make Vaughn the rightful Arl. Also, I don't see why you would want to kill Vaughn's father. It's not like he's the one gathering up elven women to rape. Vaughn was out of control because his father was away and he could get away with it.

This is true, I forgot that Vaughn's father was killed at Ostagar. Guess Vaughn was next in line. Oh well, I Murder Knifed him too.

Anyway, I had a beef with Vaughn's daddy mostly because of the alienage conditions, the fact that it was even kept hidden from Cailan (though I suppose that could also partly be willful ignorance on Cailan's part until my elf told him I killed Vaughn), and probably most telling of all his own son's attitude towards elves. Where in the world would Vaughn get those kinds of values in the first place?

[Creature 1]

Namirsolo wrote...
if you let the arl's son out, Zevran takes a huge approval hit. This is interesting because the first time I played I was a human noble who had no idea who he was and you can apparently talk to the guy and not hear a single racist thing about elves from him. So I was like "Okay this dude is kind of rude, but I see no reason why to let him  here" and when I started to let him out Zevran freaked out. Neither of us had any idea about his elf attitude.

If you talk to him enough he starts spouting off about elves.  My mage stabbed him because she just didn't like him, my noble stabbed him because he's in love with an elf, my elf will stab him on general principle.  So I haven't seen the Zevran freak out yet.

Zevran also gets a huge minus if you agree to help the elven slaver in the alienage, but that one is more obvious.

I brought him with me on my last run through the Alienage because I heard he has some good lines in this quest, but he didn't say anything.  Wynn had to pontificate and I guess Zevran kept quiet to give her a chance.  Next time Wynn gets to sit that one out.  

I was thinking more something where your noble expects Zevran's favors because s/he is a noble and Zevran is an elf, so of course Zevran's role is to acquiesce to your noble's whims.  This could lead to some interesting "morning after" conversations, possibly involving decapitations.  But I guess the devs thought letting your PC attempt to sexually exploit a social inferior was PR nitroglycerine.  

[robertthebard]

OnionXI wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

Certainly if the opportunity presented itself, I'd have spitted the Arl of Denerim's head on a pike. Unfortunately, the Blight doesn't take a timeout for social justice.

You could have murder knifed him in his cell in the name of "social justice" if you wanted to. You don't need him to win the Landsmeet, he's just icing on the cake.

That's his son, not the Arl himself.

Well, considering Vaughn's father is killed at Ostigar and the usurper Howe is killed that does make Vaughn the rightful Arl. Also, I don't see why you would want to kill Vaughn's father. It's not like he's the one gathering up elven women to rape. Vaughn was out of control because his father was away and he could get away with it.

This is a day in the life, and based on your co wedding day friend's response, it's not rare, just early.  Lines throughout give this weight, since the elven servant that bottles the cook states that Vaughn is not known for his kindness.  This leads one to believe that this isn't the first time.

At any rate, some of the responses here meant to "prove me wrong" prove my point.  They're elves, nobody cares.  Until, that is, they can be used as a lever against Loghain, and another justification to kill him.  You want to kill Loghain, that's yer business.  Frankly, I kill him more than I let live.  However, don't try to fall back on the slavery thing, because quite frankly, that's all that you're using it for, a reason to kill Loghain.  I really don't need a reason, and I really don't need to bring it up at the Landsmeet to win either.  Promising to support Anora, and rescuing the Templar and giving his sister the ring will win it for me.  This will easily get me the five points I need, not to mention rescuing the tortued son of one of the nobles.  Thanks, for those that did, for proving my point, however.

[Brass_Buckles]

robertthebard wrote...
At any rate, some of the responses here meant to "prove me wrong" prove my point.  They're elves, nobody cares.  Until, that is, they can be used as a lever against Loghain, and another justification to kill him.  You want to kill Loghain, that's yer business.  Frankly, I kill him more than I let live.  However, don't try to fall back on the slavery thing, because quite frankly, that's all that you're using it for, a reason to kill Loghain.  I really don't need a reason, and I really don't need to bring it up at the Landsmeet to win either.  Promising to support Anora, and rescuing the Templar and giving his sister the ring will win it for me.  This will easily get me the five points I need, not to mention rescuing the tortued son of one of the nobles.  Thanks, for those that did, for proving my point, however.

Using slavery as an "excuse," huh?  Sure, the conditions in the Alienage are horrible, but from what Leliana tells you, even though SOME of the elven slaves in Orlais are well-treated, and maybe are treated better than the servants, there are plenty who are treated terribly (and I would guess that those who appear to be treated well aren't necessarily always so well-treated either, because emotional abuse and even rape or beatings won't necessarily leave visible signs what with clothing and all).  I didn't think Zevran's background (as essentially a slave belonging to the Crows--a slave because he was purchased by them) really sounded all that wonderful, either, what with being beaten in the ****house and forced to fight to survive once he joined the Crows.  Then seeing how the elves who were being sold off were treated, put into tiny filthy cages, with blood everywhere and torture implements lying around...  No really?  Slavery isn't any worse than the Alienage?  At least in the Alienage, the elves have some chance of improving their state of being (how about an uprising, anyone?) and belong to themselves.  They also have a tightly-knit community there.  It IS partly their fault that their conditions in the alienage are no better than they are--there seem to be enough of them to stage a successful revolt, and barring that, it's always possible for them to leave the city and make homes of their own in the countryside.  But, mostly, it's because the nobles and the commoners figure "out of sight, out of mind," and because they tend to be murdered violently if they try to leave the Alienage.

I would argue that no matter how badly off you seem to be, it's worse to be considered someone else's property, because then you have absolutely no control over your own fate.  You could be treated great now, but tomorrow your owner might be having financial difficulties, and then you're going to be sold to Maker-knows-who.  That person may be extremely abusive.

You're free to think what you will OP, but personally I think your ideas about slavery are not so well thought out.  I will continue to be angered over Loghain enslaving the elves, right along with his betrayal of the Grey Wardens.  And I'll only spare him when I have a character who for whatever crazy reason doesn't hate him for his actions at Ostagar and/or for his treatment of the elves (and I'm to understand that those who didn't make the cut as slaves were outright murdered--yes, slavery is so much better than the Alienage!  You even get to die before you become a slave!), or is soft-hearted enough to somehow forgive the creep.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 31 décembre 2009 - 08:33 .

[robertthebard]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
At any rate, some of the responses here meant to "prove me wrong" prove my point.  They're elves, nobody cares.  Until, that is, they can be used as a lever against Loghain, and another justification to kill him.  You want to kill Loghain, that's yer business.  Frankly, I kill him more than I let live.  However, don't try to fall back on the slavery thing, because quite frankly, that's all that you're using it for, a reason to kill Loghain.  I really don't need a reason, and I really don't need to bring it up at the Landsmeet to win either.  Promising to support Anora, and rescuing the Templar and giving his sister the ring will win it for me.  This will easily get me the five points I need, not to mention rescuing the tortued son of one of the nobles.  Thanks, for those that did, for proving my point, however.

Using slavery as an "excuse," huh?  Sure, the conditions in the Alienage are horrible, but from what Leliana tells you, even though SOME of the elven slaves in Orlais are well-treated, and maybe are treated better than the servants, there are plenty who are treated terribly (and I would guess that those who appear to be treated well aren't necessarily always so well-treated either, because emotional abuse and even rape or beatings won't necessarily leave visible signs what with clothing and all).  I didn't think Zevran's background (as essentially a slave belonging to the Crows--a slave because he was purchased by them) really sounded all that wonderful, either, what with being beaten in the ****house and forced to fight to survive once he joined the Crows.  Then seeing how the elves who were being sold off were treated, put into tiny filthy cages, with blood everywhere and torture implements lying around...  No really?  Slavery isn't any worse than the Alienage?  At least in the Alienage, the elves have some chance of improving their state of being (how about an uprising, anyone?) and belong to themselves.  They also have a tightly-knit community there.  It IS partly their fault that their conditions in the alienage are no better than they are--there seem to be enough of them to stage a successful revolt, and barring that, it's always possible for them to leave the city and make homes of their own in the countryside.  But, mostly, it's because the nobles and the commoners figure "out of sight, out of mind," and because they tend to be murdered violently if they try to leave the Alienage.

I would argue that no matter how badly off you seem to be, it's worse to be considered someone else's property, because then you have absolutely no control over your own fate.  You could be treated great now, but tomorrow your owner might be having financial difficulties, and then you're going to be sold to Maker-knows-who.  That person may be extremely abusive.

You're free to think what you will OP, but personally I think your ideas about slavery are not so well thought out.  I will continue to be angered over Loghain enslaving the elves, right along with his betrayal of the Grey Wardens.  And I'll only spare him when I have a character who for whatever crazy reason doesn't hate him for his actions at Ostagar and/or for his treatment of the elves (and I'm to understand that those who didn't make the cut as slaves were outright murdered--yes, slavery is so much better than the Alienage!  You even get to die before you become a slave!), or is soft-hearted enough to somehow forgive the creep.

Thanks for further showing what I'm talking about.  Uprising?  Yeah, that would be priceless wouldn't it?  A whole lot of unarmed elves against a trained army.  Shortest uprising in history.  But anyway, thanks.  Evidently you have a very warped conception of Alienage life.  Based on Vaughn's behavior, they are "pets".  What does that translate to?  Property?  Yeah, life in the Alienage is all that...