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[Brass_Buckles]

robertthebard wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
At any rate, some of the responses here meant to "prove me wrong" prove my point.  They're elves, nobody cares.  Until, that is, they can be used as a lever against Loghain, and another justification to kill him.  You want to kill Loghain, that's yer business.  Frankly, I kill him more than I let live.  However, don't try to fall back on the slavery thing, because quite frankly, that's all that you're using it for, a reason to kill Loghain.  I really don't need a reason, and I really don't need to bring it up at the Landsmeet to win either.  Promising to support Anora, and rescuing the Templar and giving his sister the ring will win it for me.  This will easily get me the five points I need, not to mention rescuing the tortued son of one of the nobles.  Thanks, for those that did, for proving my point, however.

Using slavery as an "excuse," huh?  Sure, the conditions in the Alienage are horrible, but from what Leliana tells you, even though SOME of the elven slaves in Orlais are well-treated, and maybe are treated better than the servants, there are plenty who are treated terribly (and I would guess that those who appear to be treated well aren't necessarily always so well-treated either, because emotional abuse and even rape or beatings won't necessarily leave visible signs what with clothing and all).  I didn't think Zevran's background (as essentially a slave belonging to the Crows--a slave because he was purchased by them) really sounded all that wonderful, either, what with being beaten in the ****house and forced to fight to survive once he joined the Crows.  Then seeing how the elves who were being sold off were treated, put into tiny filthy cages, with blood everywhere and torture implements lying around...  No really?  Slavery isn't any worse than the Alienage?  At least in the Alienage, the elves have some chance of improving their state of being (how about an uprising, anyone?) and belong to themselves.  They also have a tightly-knit community there.  It IS partly their fault that their conditions in the alienage are no better than they are--there seem to be enough of them to stage a successful revolt, and barring that, it's always possible for them to leave the city and make homes of their own in the countryside.  But, mostly, it's because the nobles and the commoners figure "out of sight, out of mind," and because they tend to be murdered violently if they try to leave the Alienage.

I would argue that no matter how badly off you seem to be, it's worse to be considered someone else's property, because then you have absolutely no control over your own fate.  You could be treated great now, but tomorrow your owner might be having financial difficulties, and then you're going to be sold to Maker-knows-who.  That person may be extremely abusive.

You're free to think what you will OP, but personally I think your ideas about slavery are not so well thought out.  I will continue to be angered over Loghain enslaving the elves, right along with his betrayal of the Grey Wardens.  And I'll only spare him when I have a character who for whatever crazy reason doesn't hate him for his actions at Ostagar and/or for his treatment of the elves (and I'm to understand that those who didn't make the cut as slaves were outright murdered--yes, slavery is so much better than the Alienage!  You even get to die before you become a slave!), or is soft-hearted enough to somehow forgive the creep.

Thanks for further showing what I'm talking about.  Uprising?  Yeah, that would be priceless wouldn't it?  A whole lot of unarmed elves against a trained army.  Shortest uprising in history.  But anyway, thanks.  Evidently you have a very warped conception of Alienage life.  Based on Vaughn's behavior, they are "pets".  What does that translate to?  Property?  Yeah, life in the Alienage is all that...

I never said that being in an alienage was great.  But I don't think the elves are as inept as you seem to at combat.  In the city elf origin, your mother was quite a skilled rogue.  Soris is also skilled at combat.  Shianni can fight.  I'm doubting that they are the only ones.  Trained or not, they seem to be quite skilled at rogue tactics in particular.  Even if they died, haven't you ever heard the saying "Give me liberty or give me death?"   The alienage elves aren't pets, but the slave elves in Orlais clearly are.  I mean wow, what a skewed way of looking at things you have...  Because really, slavery and being sold to all kinds of people is just wonderful, right?  Can you feel the sarcasm?  Because my tone was just dripping with it there.

[robertthebard]

So they're just elves, it doesn't matter if they get freedom, or just die? This is the exact reason I posted this thread. All they are good for is leverage against Loghain? So now, they're not even people, they are bargaining chips.

[MyKingdomCold]

I guess if you're a city elf you would have a better reason to hate Loghain for selling the elves in slavery. Your father was going to be sold and the elder, or whatever he's called, is already gone.

[Squiggles1334]

I don't think anyone's contesting that things are even worse for elves being actively sold to Tevinter slavers or Antivan Crows or whatnot. Whether or not the state of elves in the alienages is technically "slavery" could be chalked up as a matter of semantics, though Vaughn's attitude in the city elf origin as next in line to be Arl of Denerim is pretty telling. It's still very clearly oppression that the nobility of Denerim (and likely the rest of Fereldan) is either actively promoting or at the very least willfully ignoring. Their outrage at the Landsmeet struck me as somewhat hypocritical in this sense.

Just because other people are unfortunate enough to be eating crap doesn't mean I'll be grateful I only have to drink ******.

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:19 .

[ShadowAldrius]

Based on Vaughn's behavior, they are "pets". What does that translate to? Property? Yeah, life in the Alienage is all that...

That's VAUGHN'S belief. Vaughn is a repugnant, brash racist. Not all the human nobles are racists, or at least not all of them are open about that fact.



The elves are second-class citizens, but being a second-class citizen is a far from being a slave. They have the freedom to leave the alienage, they have the freedom to pursue what work they want.



No one is denying that their quality of life isn't very high, and nobody really pays any attention to them (especially amongst the nobility) but it's still better than being a slave.

[Squiggles1334]

ShadowAldrius wrote...

Based on Vaughn's behavior, they are "pets". What does that translate to? Property? Yeah, life in the Alienage is all that...

That's VAUGHN'S belief. Vaughn is a repugnant, brash racist. Not all the human nobles are racists, or at least not all of them are open about that fact.

Considering that Vaughn is the son of the guy in charge of Denerim and that he's next in line to govern, I'd say there's more to the issue here than just one guy's racist beliefs...

[robertthebard]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

I guess if you're a city elf you would have a better reason to hate Loghain for selling the elves in slavery. Your father was going to be sold and the elder, or whatever he's called, is already gone.

Just another human, doing the same song and dance that's been going on.  The only difference is Loghain isn't going through picking the girl to rape next.

[Brass_Buckles]

robertthebard wrote...

So they're just elves, it doesn't matter if they get freedom, or just die? This is the exact reason I posted this thread. All they are good for is leverage against Loghain? So now, they're not even people, they are bargaining chips.

Did I say it's because they're just elves?  I like the elves.  My only point of sarcasm was my last sentence in that post--I kind of thought that was obvious.  The fact that I LIKE the elves is why I consider enslaving them a reason to kill Loghain.  I was quoting something said by one of the forefathers of the United States of America--during the American Revolution, I believe, but it applies here as well.  Better to die free, able to control your own destiny, than to live with someone else controlling what you do.  I think you are failing to understand the meaning of "Give me liberty or give me death"--or for that matter, the sentiment behind it.  And I think perhaps you are failing to understand intentionally.

Frankly, I find your advocation of slavery to be despicable, because slavery definitely is worse than the alienage--no matter how bad the alienage is, at least the elves there can't be sold from master to master, never knowing what situation they are going to find themselves in next.  Better to fight and die than go through that.  At least in the alienage they have a chance and know the situation they are in, and at some point can likely turn things around for themselves.  Like I said, revolution is an option--and there are probably humans, particularly those with elven parents, who'd happily aid in that endeavor.  The "trained soldiers" don't seem to be all that spectacularly skilled.  My city elf went on a slaughter spree against the "trained" guards, and I doubt she was even particularly skilled at that point.

If this nation had followed your logic, robertthebard, then we'd still have legal slavery here.  (And since you can't seem to tell from my directly telling you when I'm being sarcastic, sarcasm on for the following sentence) After all, even if there are a whole lot of people who abuse their slaves, it's better than knowing many of them are going to be living in the slums, right? (sarcasm off)

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:34 .

[Creature 1]

I think you're drawing the wrong inference. I don't think robertthebard is saying slavery doesn't suck, I think he's saying living in a ghetto sucks almost as bad, and the supposed horror on the part of the nobles at the idea of selling elves doesn't make sense when some of the nobility are handing out cute elf girls as party favors.



I think the Alienage is more like the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1940. They had a rebellion too but it didn't go so well.

[Brass_Buckles]

Creature 1 wrote...

I think you're drawing the wrong inference. I don't think robertthebard is saying slavery doesn't suck, I think he's saying living in a ghetto sucks almost as bad, and the supposed horror on the part of the nobles at the idea of selling elves doesn't make sense when some of the nobility are handing out cute elf girls as party favors.

I think the Alienage is more like the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1940. They had a rebellion too but it didn't go so well.

Now see, if he'd said it that way, I'd get it--and so would most of the rest of us who were ticked off by what he said.  But I still think slavery is worse, whereas he writes as if he believes that the alienage is worse.  The alienage is not a concentration camp!  If it were, then I'd agree that slavery would be a less horrible option (because the concentration camps combined slavery with a million other atrocities).

[Squiggles1334]

No, I don't think he's saying the Alienage is so much worse. I think he's just saying SLAVERYOMG is a poor reason to justify killing Loghain unless you want to be consistent and Murder Knife half the Fereldan nobility with him for sweeping the Alienage under the rug all these years and treating elves like dirt.

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 31 décembre 2009 - 10:03 .

[Creature 1]

Squiggles1334 wrote...
unless you want to be consistent and Murder Knife half the Fereldan nobility

Hey, start small. 

[gammle]

well hummans will always be hummans scumbags and nothing more then a pile of rotting dog's

[bobsmyuncle]

Creature 1 wrote...

I think you're drawing the wrong inference. I don't think robertthebard is saying slavery doesn't suck, I think he's saying living in a ghetto sucks almost as bad, and the supposed horror on the part of the nobles at the idea of selling elves doesn't make sense when some of the nobility are handing out cute elf girls as party favors.

I think the Alienage is more like the Warsaw Ghetto circa 1940. They had a rebellion too but it didn't go so well.

It didn't turn out too hot but it was still better than being sent to Dachau or Auschwitz, which IMO is about on par with slavery in Tevinter, considering the guy running the operation considers them fuel for blood magic.

Selling people isn't the only reason I think Loghain deserves to bite it, but it is a big one.  Further, robertthebard, you seem to be trying to point out some kind of hypocrisy in the player base, but I haven't seen many posts celebrating elvish oppression. If you want to point out the hypocrisy in the attitudes of the human nobles in the Landsmeet who are shocked at slavery but otherwise don't give a **** about elvish poverty, I suggest reading up about American race relations in the 1800s. It's a valid criticism of them but it's also rooted in historical attitudes. Plenty of abolitionists were embarrassingly racist about black  people, and thought blacks were inferior to whites but still abhorred the treatment slaves received on plantations. Also, the statement that  ghetto elves are worse off because "at least slaves were fed" is laughable. It's not true in DAO history and it isn't true of RL history (at least, depending on what culture we're speaking of). Black slaves in the US were taken advantage of in exactly the way Vaughn abuses the elven women in the alienage, not to mention extreme physical abuse and being sold off like cattle. In DA history, at least from what we know happened in Tevinter, elf slaves were fuel for blood magic. In neither case is such a state preferable to living in a ghetto, deplorable as conditions may be.

And before people start on Orlais and what Leliana says about elves there, I want to point out that Fiona from the Calling was a ten year old sex slave for an Orlesian nobleman before she discovered she was a mage by setting him on fire. Just because Leliana thinks elves live well in Orlais doesn't mean they are equal to humans or have any independence, just that they have attached themselves to a rich noble for the present.

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 31 décembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[PatT2]

Well, the Alienage and the elves being sold into slavery is not the reason for killing Loghain, at least not in my games. I did it because he left the king and the armies to be killed on the field when he had the option to save them. He, a general, loyal to the king, supposedly, turned his back on them and quit the field. He's a traitor. High treason is a crime punishable by death.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

At any rate, some of the responses here meant to "prove me wrong" prove my point.

Refuting every single of your feeble arguments is somehow "proving your point"? Only if you came into this "discussion" with your mind made up from the very start and with no intention to consider the possibility you're wrong about it.

[robertthebard]

LostScout wrote...

Not to throw gasoline onto the fire, but, nobody objects to Loghain's slavery operation because nobody knows about it.  Until you deal with a certain Arl, who is disliked intensely by many of us human nobles, no-one is allowed into the alienage.  By order of the new Arl of Denerim.  The people of Ferelden are outraged by slavery.  Living with squalor, abuse, rape and murder are not so bad, cause that's pretty much business as usual thanks to the wise management of Queen Anora.  But it's just wrong to sell somebody. Maybe because it reminds them too much of being occupied by Orlais.  Life in the alienage is bad for elves, but at least they have their families.  Once they are sold as slaves to Tevinter they are never seen again.  Perhaps that is the straw that broke the camel's back.

So what you're saying is so long as no money changes hands, it's all good?  The conditions in the Alienage go back way before Anora.  They predate Cailin.  They even predate Vaughn, who is just the first case we get to know about, if you play the City Elf origin.  You see, this is the point of the topic.  The ZOMG, Loghain's getting paid to do what the Arl's son has been doing for free.  He's not alone, and the soldiers he brings back after getting cracked with the bottle don't have any problems killing the elf that resists either.  They didn't like it much when Orlesian Chevaliers had their way with their wives, yet they don't mind that that very behavior goes on on a seemingly regular basis in the Alienage.  Is it any wonder that my City Elf wished she could run away just like Alistair?  Let Ferelden fall to the Blight, after all, it's not like any humans were going to treat her people any differently, as we can see from the epilog, despite the fact that the Warden that ensured they'd be alive to change their ways was an elf from the Denerim Alienage.  Good thing she opted for making Loghain sleep with Morrigan for the ritual, since giving her life to save them would have been a waste of a life.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

You see, this is the point of the topic.  The ZOMG, Loghain's getting paid to do what the Arl's son has been doing for free.

The Arl's son is giving away elves into slavery? I must've missed the Tevinter mages running a cover up operation right in the middle of the Alienage with his blessing during my elf city origin.

Oh wait, there wasn't one and it's just more sophistry in lack of better argument.

[robertthebard]

LostScout wrote...

I'm not saying what's going on in the alienage is right. I'm saying that most of the humans in Ferelden don't have a problem with it as long as you don't sell them. The Arl's late, unlamented son, rapes them and lets them loose the next day, unless they resist. What he is doing is ugly, but not the same as Loghain selling them to be used as fuel for Blood Mages. And Ferelden has a real problem with Blood Mages. So yeah, the outrage at the Landsmeet is real, because they are bothered by different things than you and I are. And no, my city elf didn't sacrifice himself for the good of Ferelden either. But my buddy Alistair made me Bann of the Alienage! Is that a dubious reward or what?

It would be a great reward, if I could set the rules.  Human nobles beware, you're not really welcome here any more.  It's interesting to watch the responses in this topic though.  It's a pretty consistent theme that the abuses that go on are allowed to go on, and only the money changing hands, and shipping them out of the country seems to raise eyebrows.  Now, and this is sick to consider, but it's possible that they only get mad because the free ****s get shipped somewhere else.  In so far as I can see, the human population of Ferelden sees the Alienages as a sort of petting zoo.  With heavy petting being optional.

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You see, this is the point of the topic.  The ZOMG, Loghain's getting paid to do what the Arl's son has been doing for free.

The Arl's son is giving away elves into slavery? I must've missed the Tevinter mages running a cover up operation right in the middle of the Alienage with his blessing during my elf city origin.

Oh wait, there wasn't one and it's just more sophistry in lack of better argument.

He's doing what ever he wants to with them.  Treating them as his property.  I can get a dictionary to find smaller words if I need to to make you see what I'm saying.  Of course, the fact that you'd rather just disagree would still make it impossible for you to understand.

[skotie]

robertthebard wrote...

It's amazing to me how many people fall back to "Loghain sells the elves into slavery" as a justification for killing him, meanwhile ignoring the fact that the elves have been living as less than slaves for a lot longer than Loghain has been "in power" in Ferelden.  Maric apparently allowed it to continue, or to come into being well prior to events in this game, and didn't he have an elven mistress?  Seems I read that somewhere here.  I haven't read the books, yet, so I don't know.

What I do know is that it's supposed to be an overwhelming reason to call for Loghain's head.  Selling them into slavery is reprehensible, but allowing them to live in a condition where nobody would even notice isn't any better.  He took advantage of a situation that already existed, otherwise, somebody would already be aware.  Who is supposed to defend them?  If you don't play the origin, you'll see the signs all over about elves with swords will die upon them, so they aren't supposed to defend themselves.  It would seem that that is supposed to fall upon the Arl of Denerim?

Yet, whether you play the origin or not, you can surmise that he's not all that keen on protecting them, after all, his son treats the Alienage like a hooker buffet, where he doesn't even have to pay for them.  "you can dress up your pets any way you like, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".  So it's not the Arl's job either?  Cailin is forbidden from entering?  I just read this, and have heard it in game myself, but who rules, whoever is forbidding him, or Cailin, well, not anymore, all things considered, but..

At any rate, if you're not outraged about the conditions in the Alienage already, why would you be outraged about them being sold into slavery?  Is this just a justification to kill someone that has already yielded to you in a duel?  It's a poor excuse, unless you plan on thinning all the Nobility associated with Denerim for having them live the way they do?

Yeah sounds like your trying to justify treating people in a bad situation already even worse. You mind if I come and stab you in the stomach while your on your deathbed in a hospital sometime?

[Squiggles1334]

Creature 1 wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...
unless you want to be consistent and Murder Knife half the Fereldan nobility

Hey, start small. 

I like to dream big.