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[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

He's doing what ever he wants to with them.  Treating them as his property.

He may think of them as of his property but they actually aren't. A property does not object to wishes of its owner and brain them with a bottle in response to unwelcome advances, it just does as told.

And if your argument is that he can force them into submission if he brings enough of his own guards/servants... this is universal mechanics. A group of elves can force a human into doing things too (in fact you get to witness the elves who abuse humans in the Alienage during the game) It doesn't make such human their property, either. It makes target of such abuse a victim. Look it up with the rest of them small words.

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

He's doing what ever he wants to with them.  Treating them as his property.

He may think of them as of his property but they actually aren't. A property does not object to wishes of its owner and brain them with a bottle in response to unwelcome advances, it just does as told.

And if your argument is that he can force them into submission if he brings enough of his own guards/servants... this is universal mechanics. A group of elves can force a human into doing things too (in fact you get to witness the elves who abuse humans in the Alienage during the game) It doesn't make such human their property, either. It makes target of such abuse a victim. Look it up with the rest of them small words.

I'm going to have so much fun with you.  So tell me, what do you suppose would happen if that one incident of the human thinking he could just cut through the Alienage would have come back with some guards?  Do you think the guards would have said, "good show old boys, keep it up", or would there have been consequences for the elves for daring to intimidate a human?

Shoe on the other foot, what happens to Vaughn if instead of going after the girls, you tell his daddy?  More dead elves?  You see, it's all good to sit here and tell me, "They aren't his property", or "he rapes them and lets them go, unlesss they resisist, and then he kills them".  So the victim is supposed to become a willing object to avoid death?  Gee, what other beings get treated that way?  Um, slaves?  "You do what I say, or you're dead".  Feel free, however, to hold onto whatever motivation you have to deny the truth.  It's not like I'm making this up, and it's not like it doesn't happen in other Alienages across Thedas.  This one just happens to be the only one you can go to.

I'm sure the Quartermaster in Ostagar is just a fluke, except wait, didn't somebody mention earlier in this thread that Fiona was a sex slave in Orlais, until she found out she was a mage, and incinerated her master?  So, this is all a figment of my imagination, except that it is prevalent throughout the game, exists in the books that lead up to the game.  So yeah, I'm just making this all up to justify saying "don't use selling elves into slavery as justification to kill Loghain".  Unless this is your last possible justification for it, and I'm striking a nerve?

[robertthebard]

You can actually win the Landsmeet w/out it. Support Anora for 3 of your 5 points, the tortured noble's son, and the templar should get you the support of the Revered Mother, which is another 2 points, you only need 5. Putting Loghain in check with "The Blight is the threat here, not Orlais" is also a classic.

[Sialater]

You don't actually need Anora. I told her I wouldn't support her and told her Loghain needed to be brought to justice. I then went and dealt with all the nobles' problems and freed whoever needed freeing (yes, including Vaughn, my Mage Elf didn't know why he was locked up), and had my Persuade up in the mid-to-high-30's and maxed. So, when Anora barged in and lied, the Landsmeet was already against her.



Only the bald guy voted against me and it went straight to a duel, no melee. I took Loghain out with my Mage-PC. Easy peasy.

[Sialater]

Also, I didn't mention the Alienage. I mentioned the imprisoned nobles in Howe's dungeon.





The nobles could give a flaming Andraste's arse for the elves.

[Sialater]

Exactly. So my ELVEN mage played to their pocketbooks, so to speak.

[MorningBird]

Quoting the city elf origin intro:

"Long ago, the elves lived as slaves to humans, and although they've been free for many generations now, they are far from equals."

I think that pretty much summarizes the situation in the Alienage.  City elves are more comparable to third class citizens then slaves.

A slave is: "One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household."

This is not the case with city elves, as they are not bound in servitude.  They have freedoms, albeit, these freedoms are small, and hardly meet the standards of humans.

1) They can obtain jobs, normally ones that involve hard labor (a crippled elf in the Alienage will tell you as much) though many prefer to earn their coin as servants.  They can also work as tradesmen, although the selling of weapons is strictly prohibited.

2) No human family can "own" a city elf (legally).  That is why the elves are allowed to live with their family, marry, and move (the city elf's wife/husband in the origin story comes from Highever).

These are not the rights of slaves.  Vaughan was acting illegally when he kidnapped the women from the wedding party.  It is possible that the elves could have alerted the garrison and had something done, but they were under time constraints.  They wanted to retrieve their girls before they were raped, not after, especially since Vaughan's only punishment for his deplorable actions would have been a slap on the wrist.  This is hardly justice, but as a third class citizen, it's about all you can expect.

Through sheer misfortune, you have to fight your way through Vaughan to retrieve the woman and kill him if you wish to save them.  Because of this, the garrison has no choice but to arrest you for his 'murder'.  They're not arresting you for being a 'disobedient slave', but because you killed and Erl's son; something that simply cannot be ignored, regardless as to whether or not Vaughan 'had it coming'.  Both murder and rape are crimes punishable by the law.  You cannot be excluded based on the principle that 'Vaughan struck first', and as Vaughan is already dead by this point, he's received his punishment.

The city elves only ever become slaves after Loghain gives the okay for them to be sold to the Tevinter Traders.

1) They are pried from their homes and families against their wills and forced to live with 'masters' in a new country.

2) They become bound to other humans because they are forced to work as laborers or become blood sacrifices without pay.

3) In Tevinter, they can be killed for disobiediance without a second thought.  At least in Ferelden the nobles will gasp in horror of such an act.

As the player of a city elf, I agree: life in the Alienage sucks, but it's not slavery.  If it was, I would have had a quest to slaughter slave traders far earlier on in the game.

And I don't understand your analogy of slave > living in the Alienage.

In the Alienage you get to live.  As a Tevinter slave, you're a spare body for a blood sacrifice.  'Alienage elf' is clearly the lesser of the two evils.

Modifié par MorningBird, 01 janvier 2010 - 01:58 .

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

I'm going to have so much fun with you.  So tell me, what do you suppose would happen if that one incident of the human thinking he could just cut through the Alienage would have come back with some guards?

I'd say it appears no guard would bother with such claim, seeing how at no point in game there's guards in the Alienage taking it out on elves for their alleged crimes. You're welcome to conjecture otherwise but with anything to back it up that's all it's going to be, a speculation just like mine except with even less to support it.

Shoe on the other foot, what happens to Vaughn if instead of going after the girls, you tell his daddy?

No way to tell, seeing how we don't get to see the man at all. Again, we can speculate but none of it is going to become a valid argument.

You see, it's all good to sit here and tell me, "They aren't his property", or "he rapes them and lets them go, unlesss they resisist, and then he kills them".  So the victim is supposed to become a willing object to avoid death?  Gee, what other beings get treated that way?  Um, slaves?  "You do what I say, or you're dead".

By this logic, any victim of armed robbery or any other crime where the threat of force is used to ensure submission... is a slave. How many charges of slavery do you see in our courts? After all it's illegal, and if it could ensure getting criminals in jail you'd think people would jump at such opportunity. But it's almost as if they realize how absurd such stance would be.

Feel free, however, to hold onto whatever motivation you have to deny the truth.  It's not like I'm making this up, and it's not like it doesn't happen in other Alienages across Thedas.  This one just happens to be the only one you can go to.

It's not X-Files and there's no truth to deny here. And i'm sorry but *all* of this is just you "making this up" seeing how all you've posted so far is nothing but speculations.

wait, didn't somebody mention earlier in this thread that Fiona was a sex slave in Orlais, until she found out she was a mage, and incinerated her master?

slave
in Orlais
Ferelden

i'll leave these dots for you to connect on your own. Hint: it has to do with geography, borders and different judicial systems.

So yeah, I'm just making this all up to justify saying "don't use selling elves into slavery as justification to kill Loghain".  Unless this is your last possible justification for it, and I'm striking a nerve?

No, i'm rather shaking my head that your admiration for the man blinds you so much that you completely disregard possibility anyone could honestly see him worthy of death for organizing slaver ring. Including people who played a city elf and thus have witnessed their fictional family and friends being subjected to this fate.

Seriously, not everyone cares about Loghain this much one way or the other, and so they're fully capable of passing judgement on him based on his actions they witness in game. It's not that "oh they just hate Loghain so they look for excuses". It's these "excuses" are perceived serious enough in their own right to condemn the virtual guy who fails to evoke much attachment to his person.

[BrianWilly]

I think you're exaggerating the conditions of the alienage just a weeee bit, warping it to suit the exact requisite levels of indignity that your argument requires.  Poverty is not slavery, no amount of semantic handwaving will make it so.  You think there aren't hundreds of areas all across this country or the world that's comparable to the state of the fictional DA:O alienage?  Would you equate the citizens of Detroit to being slaves, and that being sold off to slavery would be no worse than their usual lot?  Hell, I wouldn't even liken the state of the alienage to some real world ghettos, considering the alienage seems relatively free of crime and most people seem to have work.

Vaughan was an exaggerated caricature to the point of being comical, and there are no other Fereldans in the entire game with his attitude.  No, the Ostagar quartermaster and the kitchen staff at various nobles' estates aren't comparable.  That's called being an uppity boss; we've all had a one of those.  Even Howe -- who every other noble hated -- merely crushed the elves as he would any other threats to his power; he was no more oppressive to them than he would be towards humans who opposed him.  You use the attitudes of Howe, Loghain, and Vaughan to represent the baseline attitutes of nobility, but that's ridiculous.  Not only aren't they good representations of Ferelden nobles, but they aren't even good examples of typical Ferelden racism.  To tout them as such is problematic, as is using the city elf origin as representation of a typical day in the life of a typical city elf.

And you seem to take Loghain's point that "the alienage is lost, I'm just doing whatever I can to salvage it.  FOR FERELDEN!" at face value, which is pretty laughable.  I mean, listen to the man at the Landsmeet.  He's gone full bend around Crazy Land, took a rest top on the moon, and then came back with gifts.  He's ranting about Orlesian conspiracies and how they "got to" Anora, twisting whatever facts he can to support his delusions and probably believing them too.  Even if the alienage was "lost," which is dubious considering it seems to do just fine in the Alistair = king epilogue, it only got to that point in the first place because his buddy Howe decided to put down their uprising with an iron fist!  It certainly wasn't that way before the events of the story.

I don't even know why Orlais has been brought up, because what does that have to do with Ferelden?  Not to mention, Leliana is a biased source and even admits that her views of Orlesian elves are less ideal than she might have thought.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:05 .

[Creature 1]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

He's doing what ever he wants to with them.  Treating them as his property.

He may think of them as of his property but they actually aren't. A property does not object to wishes of its owner and brain them with a bottle in response to unwelcome advances, it just does as told.

Could you explain this to my cats?

[tmp7704]

CATS ARE SPECIAL.

[MorningBird]

Creature 1 wrote...

Could you explain this to my cats?

... Okay, I lol'd.  Clearly cats are the exception to this rule.

[Sialater]

If you can explain it to his cats, can you come explain it to mine?

[robertthebard]

Yeah, I surrender. You're all right. Although where anyone gets no crime in the Alienage from, considering the intro says rife with crime. But hey, we'll ignore the fact that a 3rd class citizen has absolutely no chance to convince anyone that a noble is doing anything wrong. We'll ignore that the Quartermaster in Ostagar is going to switch his "servant". After all, he's just an elf, and is probably making that up.

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Yeah, I surrender. You're all right. Although where anyone gets no crime in the Alienage from, considering the intro says rife with crime. But hey, we'll ignore the fact that a 3rd class citizen has absolutely no chance to convince anyone that a noble is doing anything wrong. We'll ignore that the Quartermaster in Ostagar is going to switch his "servant". After all, he's just an elf, and is probably making that up.

Doesn't mean he owns his servant.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Although where anyone gets no crime in the Alienage from, considering the intro says rife with crime.

I don't think it's anywhere near free of crime. At the same time though, the Codex entry you get about the Alienage culture does say thing to the effect "but don't be so hasty to condemn the Alienages, for they keep out much more than they keep in". I read it as they're a shelter rather than a prison; a place where the elves can feel (relatively) safe because it's the place where they can support and help one another instead of being all on their own.

[robertthebard]

No, no. Really, I surrender. It's exactly what I put into the initial post. So long as nobody is making any money off the treatment of the elves, it's perfectly acceptable.

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

No, no. Really, I surrender. It's exactly what I put into the initial post. So long as nobody is making any money off the treatment of the elves, it's perfectly acceptable.

No one is saying it's acceptable.  We're just saying there's a difference between slavery and Jim Crow. 

Frankly, there's a reason Alistair (don't start, Robert the Bard), will always be king in my games.

[robertthebard]

When a noble can come into the alienage with what is supposed to be law enforcement, and take girls home for a party against their will there is no difference. They are treated like property, and if they resist, they don't come home, alive. We can color this, however, any way you guys want, like I said, nobody is getting paid, so it's ok.

[BrianWilly]

robertthebard wrote...

Yeah, I surrender. You're all right. Although where anyone gets no crime in the Alienage from, considering the intro says rife with crime. But hey, we'll ignore the fact that a 3rd class citizen has absolutely no chance to convince anyone that a noble is doing anything wrong. We'll ignore that the Quartermaster in Ostagar is going to switch his "servant". After all, he's just an elf, and is probably making that up.

Where in the intro are you getting "rife with crime" from?  Rife with wild drunken dance parties more like.  I think I saw more smiling faces in this intro than I've seen in any others!

And you said it yourself: third-class citizen.  Not a slave.  There is an appreciable difference, and you know it well.

Also, switching a servant is pretty standard practice in an age where hanging a man for suspicion of desertion is acceptable.  Hell, it wasn't so long ago that corporeal punishment for schoolchildren all the way up to their late teens was acceptable in educational systems.  I had my palms slapped with a big ol' stick for wasting food when I was in Taiwan's elementary schools.  Switching => slavery?  Hardly.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:54 .

[tmp7704]

BrianWilly wrote...

Where in the intro are you getting "rife with crime" from? 

Wish the full game had Denerim this packed with crowds; makes it look so much better

[AntiChri5]

robertthebard wrote...

When a noble can come into the alienage with what is supposed to be law enforcement, and take girls home for a party against their will there is no difference. They are treated like property, and if they resist, they don't come home, alive. We can color this, however, any way you guys want, like I said, nobody is getting paid, so it's ok.

Stop ignoring the fact that those girls could have left the Aleinage long ago. A slave does not have the right to move about freely, but the City elves could leave.

[Sarethus]

To quote Duncan from the second book Calling: "Aww. Poor elves." Duncan grew as a thief on the streets and as he pointed out he is not going to give reassurance on how good humans have it. Your forgetting that quite a few humans would arguably have the same standard of life as the elves.



If you want a different attitude regarding elves from nobles in Fereldan then look at the Cousland's from Highever. They apparently treated their elven servants well if you believe Isolde (Nan was being grumpy to everyone.) Isolde even states that the old noble lady freind of the Couslands had treated her better then anything she could have expected.



Finally as for how bad things are in the aliennage in Denherim would mainly be known by the noble responsible for Denherim, it's Arl. Other cities would have their own alienage. Also don't necessarily take Vaughn as the stereotypical nobleman or even noble man's son. That's like taking Howe as the example for all nobles in Fereldan.