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[robertthebard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

When a noble can come into the alienage with what is supposed to be law enforcement, and take girls home for a party against their will there is no difference. They are treated like property, and if they resist, they don't come home, alive. We can color this, however, any way you guys want, like I said, nobody is getting paid, so it's ok.

Stop ignoring the fact that those girls could have left the Aleinage long ago. A slave does not have the right to move about freely, but the City elves could leave.

As I put forward in my initial post, the only time anyone cares about what's going on in the Alienage is when it can be used as a lever against Loghain.  All of this "Plausible deniability", or they "could just leave" just serves to prove my point.  It's not a big deal, until money changes hands.  Regarding just leaving, we've been traveling all over Ferelden, so tell me, what happens when a bunch of unarmed elves run into the wolf ambush?  Regarding finding the Dalish, how would they know where to look.  If we play the Dalish origin, we know of 2 elves that actually found the Dalish, one was nearly dead, and the other a mage.  They don't have a guide to where the Dalish are, so they have to strike out blind.  From what we learn in the City Elf Origin, Highever's Alienage is worse.

All trying to prove how good they have it does is prove that it's a non-issue, despite what goes on in there.  From Soris, in all the other origins, where he gets captured and held in the dungeon, we know that Vaughn is a piece of work, and talking to Vaughn confirms this.  According to Vaughn, Howe takes over the estate by stating that he's there to help with an uprising, which is caused by Vaughn kidnapping and raping girls from the wedding party.  Yet it is acceptable to release him, because you need another voice at the Landsmeet?  So now we've "authorized" his treatment of the elves.  If telling yourself that treating people like slaves isn't slavery helps you sleep at night, that's all good.

[PatT2]

Okay, so we're clear what you put in your original post. My question is why? Did you really want a discussion, or were you just needing an argument and couldn't find one anywhere else? My sister does this kind of stuff. It's why I don't talk to her, and I never tell her anything of any significance, it always just gets loaded into whatever weapon she is using (verbally) and sent right back. So...it really does take two or more to argue. Seeing as that is apparently the only reason for this thread, I'm out of here.

[MorningBird]

robertthebard wrote...

As I put forward in my initial post, the only time anyone cares about what's going on in the Alienage is when it can be used as a lever against Loghain.  All of this "Plausible deniability", or they "could just leave" just serves to prove my point.  It's not a big deal, until money changes hands.  Regarding just leaving, we've been traveling all over Ferelden, so tell me, what happens when a bunch of unarmed elves run into the wolf ambush?  Regarding finding the Dalish, how would they know where to look.  If we play the Dalish origin, we know of 2 elves that actually found the Dalish, one was nearly dead, and the other a mage.  They don't have a guide to where the Dalish are, so they have to strike out blind.  From what we learn in the City Elf Origin, Highever's Alienage is worse.

All trying to prove how good they have it does is prove that it's a non-issue, despite what goes on in there.  From Soris, in all the other origins, where he gets captured and held in the dungeon, we know that Vaughn is a piece of work, and talking to Vaughn confirms this.  According to Vaughn, Howe takes over the estate by stating that he's there to help with an uprising, which is caused by Vaughn kidnapping and raping girls from the wedding party.  Yet it is acceptable to release him, because you need another voice at the Landsmeet?  So now we've "authorized" his treatment of the elves.  If telling yourself that treating people like slaves isn't slavery helps you sleep at night, that's all good.

You're problem here is that you seem to be under the impression that people disagree with you on certain points concerning the elves.  Mainly:

1) Third class citizens have it rough!  Especially elves!  Something should be done!

and

2) Human nobles have it slack!  They should be held more accountable for their actions!


... Yeah, we know this already.

NOBODY so far has been arguing this point.  In fact, the only arguement in the past 4 pages concerns your bogus comparison of a slave to an Alienage elf, which you already agreed was an incorrect assessment.

So... if we're all in agreement that the elves are heavily mistreated, and that humans are not held accountable for their mistreatment of elves... it stands to reason that you've been 'battling' with an invisible opponent all this time.

... Where did you even GET the impression that people didn't care about the treatment of elves until the Landsmeet?  Because from what I've read in the forums thus far, most players hold quite a bit of sympathy for the elves PRIOR to the Landsmeet.  However, conditions in the Alienage have been so terrible for so long (under the wonderful rule of Queen Anora and past kings...) that there is simply very little the player can do to instigate change UNTIL the slave traders have been unearthed!

Their discovery supplies the player with the only evidence of mistreatment towards the elves that the nobles can't ignore or write off, and starts a chain of events where it becomes possible for conditions in the Alienage to improve.

That's why players care so heavily about elves being sold into slavery during the Landsmeet: this discovery lays down the pathway for improved conditions, and this bothers you?  Really?

As for players who release Vaughan from Erl Howe's dungeon... you do know that the majority of players, regardless as to whether or not they play a city elf, choose to kill him, right?  Those that choose to release him are few and far inbetween, and they usually do it because they're either playing a character who is already a jerk, or for story completion.

And either way... why do YOU care how other people are playing THEIR game?  There's no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to handling the Landsmeet, so what should matter most to you is how YOU handle the situation.

Modifié par MorningBird, 01 janvier 2010 - 10:46 .

[Sialater]

Actually, compared to the mages, the elves are free and clear. At least they get to keep their children and see sunlight without a hulking, armored, lyrium-addicted, sexually-repressed, religious fanatic jailer, er, bodyguard following them around.

[tallon1982]

I didn't get the impression that all Alienages were like the one in Denerim. Um I think in the noble origins if you speak to Iona she tells you that your father has a good reputation in treatment of Elves. I could have mis-read that though and sorry if that was already mentioned.

[BrianWilly]

Where are you even getting this "no one cares until it can be used as a leverage" stuff from?  It doesn't make sense from any perspective.

From the player's real life perspective, Vaughan and Loghain are racist bastards, end of story.  Most people probably killed Vaughan anyway; I don't know where you're getting the impression that they would take his deal.  And if throwing Loghain's racism back in his face can garner some favor at the Landsmeet then that's great.  If not?  Then, alright whatever, moving on.

From the player's roleplaying perspective, only city elf origins will ever see Vaughan and his elven subjugation at its worst.  Obviously they would care about that and about what Loghain would later do.  All other origins have not only never entered an alienage in their lives, they wouldn't even have known about what Vaughan truly did to the elves other than some vague descriptions from Soris.  What they do see is Loghain funding Tevinter slavery, and would certainly react to that.

From the NPC nobles' perspective, they can "not care" about the state of elves in alienages throughout the
game, all the whilst being outraged at Loghain for selling them into slavery at the same time, because the two situations are -- wait for it -- completely different, as has been stressed by every single person in this thread except you, robertthebard.  Droning the "money changed hands is the only difference!!!11" nonsense over and over isn't going to make it any truer than the complete fabrication that it is.  Evidently you have a fringe, unique definition of slavery that is different from anyone else's, okay fine.  And evidently you've somehow experienced a version of the alienage in this game that jives with that definition (along with being "rife with crime" ), okay fine whatever.  But acting like everyone else just "doesn't get it" and are only "proving you right" or something and that somehow you're the only one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind, seeing things so much clearer than the uninformed masses, is pretty laughable.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 01 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .

[AntiChri5]

tallon1982 wrote...

I didn't get the impression that all Alienages were like the one in Denerim. Um I think in the noble origins if you speak to Iona she tells you that your father has a good reputation in treatment of Elves. I could have mis-read that though and sorry if that was already mentioned.

Your completely right on this.

[AntiChri5]

If the OP seriously think the Elves have it worse than slaves he does not understand what slavery is.

[arntson]

I let him go but I didn't know I just thought Howe was torturing the unlucky bastard but then played the city elf and was like w t f

[Realmzmaster]

There is a distinct difference between life in the Alienage and slavery. The conditions in the Alienage are bad and accepted by the nobility, but the elves freedom has not been taken away. They are subject to abuses by those in power. Slavery is the actual buying and selling of human type creatures under the auspices and consent of the government. The said human type creatures are considered property with no rights other than those granted by the owner of said property. The property is made to work against its will or be subject to disposal by the owner.
All marriages and procreation is controlled by said owner. The owner by right is able to abuse his/her property in any way the owner sees fit. These actions can include raping, murdering or torturing said property with no reprecussions from the government.
The elves are considered second or third class citzens, but note the difference they are considered citizens. Slaves are not and never were considered citizens. There are laws on the books and in society that protect the elves, how they are enforced is a different matter. But powerful people have always been able to circumvent the law. The big difference is that the government by law says the slave has no rights. There is no law that needs to be circumvented.
Was there any body stopping the elves from leaving the Alienage? No. Were the elves being hunted if they left the Alienage for another city, country or nation? No. Would the slavers have killed any of those elves that tried to escape? Of course, because they were working illegally with Loghain. If the society approve there would be no need to hide the act.
Freedom is the big difference. Loghain violated the laws of Ferelden. It is evident when the nobles state there is no slavery in Ferelden. There may be second class citizens, but not slaves.
King Cailan is an idiot. He only dreams of glory and fighting battles like the warriors of legend. He is a legend in his own mind. Queen Anora knows exactly what is going on in the Alienage, since she herself states who do you think really runs the kingdom.
The elves are looked upon as a neccessary evil. Who else is going to do all the menial, dirty work? But the elves are paid for thier work. You do not have to pay slaves.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 02 janvier 2010 - 08:02 .

[Wompoo]

Bit hard to get to steamed up over the alienage, it was drama light story light and once you've left it, you may as well have been a short skinny human... basically nothing happens about elves until the dying hours of the game and you get a very unsatisfying level of rudimentary dialogue choices for a hopeless pop up ending. The game would of been far better served if it had of focused on the character and forgotten many of the happless origins in the game... as the origins on a whole had poor closure and lacked depth. Actually I still find the human noble and dwarf noble origins to be more satisfying then the main plot.

[AntiChri5]

Ferelden's Elves have more freedom then: Mages, Casteless Dwarves, Orlesian Commoners (human and Elven) Tevinter Slaves and possibaly even Qunari.