36 réponses à ce sujet

[Sumkawps]

@OP: Hard to judge between likely DpS builds unless you have a playstyle preference, or there are other factors influencing your choices.  What's great on paper is not necessarily great in-game, nor will it necessarily suit the way you like to play.

Am assuming you are building a PC, rather than NPC Rogue. If so, you might, if you want to pick lots of locks/persuade lots of people, end up over-investing in Cun early

You don't say how you will build your party, or if you will solo, so that's another big difference to play with.

e.g. If you will run a multi-rogue party (let's say 3 Rogue one Mage), then you can have one provide max Cun based utility (Lockpick, party buff from Song of Courage, traps, in-combat stealing) and another focussing on Range with Cun/Dex Archer build and a third pure Dex or Str/Dex melee (Tank Rogue, ahem) .

For me, just as a personal preference, I like Dex/Cun Bard with heavy Cun emphasis (i.e. 34 natural Dex and rest in Cun), but that's just because of the incidental benefits to the party.  I also like it because it allows the choice speccing into range or melee. Also, as melee, you can have longbows in the secondary weapon slot (better weps, better range), so Dex/Cun gives you a decent temporary option if you want to have a Mage drop loads of AoE hurt on the nasties without worrying about friendly fire, or if you're using your Tank to kite an enemy. It also allows for less point spend on utility skills and more in damage types.

Overall, I would expect a Dex/Cun hybrid to out-damage pure Dex, and all the more so the more you favour Cun.

Dex builds seem to me to be more focussed towards a Warrior-based DW DpS build (because you won't have the option of lethality anyway).  But then, and again just a personal opinion, that's a hack n' slash build without much finesse, imho.

[Haplose]

Sumkawps wrote...
Dex builds seem to me to be more focussed towards a Warrior-based DW DpS build (because you won't have the option of lethality anyway).  But then, and again just a personal opinion, that's a hack n' slash build without much finesse, imho.

How come? With 30 Cunning and maxed Talents and skills I can pick all locks, disarm all traps, persuade everyone, steal from everyone. Probably sooner then a Cun build, who won't want to waste Talents if high Cunning will allow him to open the locks eventually anyway... but that 60-70 Cunning is far away...

Meanwhile the Dex build has excellent Defence, Attack accuracy and Physical Resist. Is self sustained. I don't see how that's less flexible/finesse.

[stillnotking]

I went full Cunning and used Leliana to pick locks early. Persuasion isn't really an issue unless you're doing quests in a non-standard order. You don't need it in the Circle tower, and the Persuasion checks in Redcliffe are very easy.

Assassin/Bard is better DPS than Assassin/Duelist, and has more utility to boot. I'm really not enamored of Duelist except for soloing. The bonuses it gives are not that beneficial to a party build (i.e. backstabbing). However, I'm pretty sure Ranger is the best specialization in terms of raw DPS.

[Sumkawps]

Haplose wrote...

How come? With 30 Cunning and maxed Talents and skills I can pick all locks, disarm all traps, persuade everyone, steal from everyone. Probably sooner then a Cun build, who won't want to waste Talents if high Cunning will allow him to open the locks eventually anyway... but that 60-70 Cunning is far away...

You only need 22 Cunning to max the skills, so the remaining 8 Cunning is, for me in a Dex build, just as far away as the last 8 Cunning in a 60-70 Cunning build, particularly since all the DW talents need decent Dex early.

Also comes down to whether you are taking Cunning or Str as the secondary stat.  With Str, you are less flexible in terms of Cunning based skills, because you will only take Cunning as and when needed to up the utility skills (and I'm guessing that with a starting attribute of 14 or 15, plus 4 from the fade, that means quite late in the game if you want to build out through Str and Dex).  Why not then go as a Warrior DW, and forget about Cunning (other the one or two points to get 16 for Coercion), so you can go full Str/Dex from the start?  And Disengage is hack 'n slash compared to the finesse of Combat stealth. And when I said hack n' slash, I was referring to the Warr build, not the Rogue per se.

If you are taking Cun as the secondary stat, why not get Lethality?.  Pure Dex Rogue is still less flexible because pure Dex restricts you to Shortbows (less good, and less range) for a secondary weapon option for melee, and defines your weapon type for a ranged.  Less finesse, because the CC from e.g. sleeping gas traps takes a Cunning based check, and so better Cunning means better CC for Ranged Rogues.  For melee, there's stealth checks to consider. Pure Dex has outstanding melee defence and attack, yes, but that's more for being in the thick of things and being hit, rather than a more finessed battle-field control style you can play with Cunning.

Just my opinion anyway, and just about play-style preference, not about what theorycraft tells us should happen. Also depends on whether you level high in Lothering on the traps exploit to play the whole game against top level enemies, but with the benefit of a near fully talented team at the start, because then you can build the exact team you want and progression becomes less of a question.

My main point was that the game offers so many approaches that it is better, once you have an idea of the theorycraft mechanics, to merely play your own way and choose for playstyle, not theorycrafted DpS charts.

[Haplose]

Sumkawps wrote...

Haplose wrote...

How come? With 30 Cunning and maxed Talents and skills I can pick all locks, disarm all traps, persuade everyone, steal from everyone. Probably sooner then a Cun build, who won't want to waste Talents if high Cunning will allow him to open the locks eventually anyway... but that 60-70 Cunning is far away...

You only need 22 Cunning to max the skills, so the remaining 8 Cunning is, for me in a Dex build, just as far away as the last 8 Cunning in a 60-70 Cunning build, particularly since all the DW talents need decent Dex early.

I need 30 Cunning to open all locks and disarm all traps in the game (with Deft Hands IV).

Also I don't understand why going Dex would limit me to Shortbows? Logbows also have Dex requirement so I can use them just fine. Both weapons are 50/50 Dex/Str under patch 1.02.

[Sumkawps]

Haplose wrote...

I need 30 Cunning to open all locks and disarm all traps in the game (with Deft Hands IV).

Also I don't understand why going Dex would limit me to Shortbows? Logbows also have Dex requirement so I can use them just fine. Both weapons are 50/50 Dex/Str under patch 1.02.

Agree that 30 points is what you need to open all chests - question is when you get the remaining 8 points, after you obtain the 22 needed to get the 4th tier skill.  For me, that would come right at the end of the build, as the build is focussed around other attributes.  You can get it early, I agree, but that then gimps the benefits you would otherwise be getting from the Dex.

My bad on shortbows - had it in my head they were 100% Dex driven.  You are still at a disadvantage to a Cunning build for Cunning based checks (like Sleeping Gas Trap), but that's a playstyle choice. For me, I prefer the party utility of Song of Courage and good CC. 

But to be clear, my point has been that comparing builds for DpS is inevitably a overly narrow parameter for a game that offers multiple playstyle choices and the skills/accessories to make them work.  If OP is soloing party dynamics will not be so important, and a Dex build favourable for additional defense.  There are no right or wrong builds, as long as your playstyle/planned game approach fits a build, it is a good one.

[Haplose]

Sumkawps wrote...

Haplose wrote...

I need 30 Cunning to open all locks and disarm all traps in the game (with Deft Hands IV).

Also I don't understand why going Dex would limit me to Shortbows? Logbows also have Dex requirement so I can use them just fine. Both weapons are 50/50 Dex/Str under patch 1.02.

Agree that 30 points is what you need to open all chests - question is when you get the remaining 8 points, after you obtain the 22 needed to get the 4th tier skill.  For me, that would come right at the end of the build, as the build is focussed around other attributes.  You can get it early, I agree, but that then gimps the benefits you would otherwise be getting from the Dex.

My bad on shortbows - had it in my head they were 100% Dex driven.  You are still at a disadvantage to a Cunning build for Cunning based checks (like Sleeping Gas Trap), but that's a playstyle choice. For me, I prefer the party utility of Song of Courage and good CC. 

But to be clear, my point has been that comparing builds for DpS is inevitably a overly narrow parameter for a game that offers multiple playstyle choices and the skills/accessories to make them work.  If OP is soloing party dynamics will not be so important, and a Dex build favourable for additional defense.  There are no right or wrong builds, as long as your playstyle/planned game approach fits a build, it is a good one.

I am getting to 30 Cun as soon as possible. I can't stand leaving locked chests behind or being unable to disarm traps.
I also refuse to drag Leliana behind to be my thievery-bot if I'm playing a Rogue myself. So that is high on the priorities list. By level 12 I should have max Deft Hands and 30 Cun.

About Shortbows, you could have had the idea from the Georg Zoeller's unofficial Dex Hotfix before patch 1.02. But then again, under this patch the Shortbows were doing some sick damage on Dex builds and really blew any Str/Cun longbow archers out of the water.

The conclusion I can certainly agree with. Both the Cunning and the Dex builds have their place and ultimately it's up to the player to choose what suits him best. The Cunning build probably has a bit better party dynamic and damage, the Dex build is more self-sustained.

Modifié par Haplose, 11 janvier 2010 - 07:42 .

[Sumkawps]

Haplose wrote...

About Shortbows, you could have had the idea from the Georg Zoeller's unofficial Dex Hotfix before patch 1.02. But then again, under this patch the Shortbows were doing some sick damage on Dex builds and really blew any Str/Cun longbow archers out of the water.

That is exactly where I had it in my head from - thanks for the pointer.  Although the damage was sick, I have to say I didn't like the reduced range and lesser choice of shortbows compared with longbows.

Haplose wrote...

The conclusion I can certainly agree with.

Looks like we are in furious agreement then

[Gegliosch]

About Shortbows, you could have had the idea from the Georg Zoeller's
unofficial Dex Hotfix before patch 1.02. But then again, under this
patch the Shortbows were doing some sick damage on Dex builds and
really blew any Str/Cun longbow archers out of the water.


Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote ^^

Can somebody please explain what this means for the ps3 version, which didn't get any patch yet as far as I know? Dex or Cunning for the most damage?

[Haplose]

Gegliosch wrote...
Can somebody please explain what this means for the ps3 version, which didn't get any patch yet as far as I know? Dex or Cunning for the most damage?

PROBABLY Str. Which can be replaced with Cun. But it's maybe best if someone with an actual PS3 version who has tested things speaks up.